<:"3~ Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 what came first....the chicken or the egg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 what came first....the chicken or the egg? The egg...this is where the mutation of the genes occurs leading to the evolution of the chicken. Bear in mind it didn't occur in one go but many little changes occurred over many generations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 If the question refers to eggs in general then they certainly pre-date chickens. But that makes the problem trivial (and hence no fun at all). If the question is thought of as which came first, the chicken or the chicken's egg? Then it's more interesting. (I think the answer is the chicken, but I will leave you all to speculate about it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joatmon Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) I don't know if chickens are the same as humans in this respect - but I think female human babies come with their full complement of eggs. So in the case of humans (and perhaps chickens) its a dead heat! later edit : just done a quick "google" and it seems I'm right - chicken chicks are (in this respect) the same as human baby girls. Edited June 2, 2012 by Joatmon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immortal Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 If the question refers to eggs in general then they certainly pre-date chickens. But that makes the problem trivial (and hence no fun at all). If the question is thought of as which came first, the chicken or the chicken's egg? Then it's more interesting. (I think the answer is the chicken, but I will leave you all to speculate about it) To be literally called as a chicken, as a separate species from its predecessor there must be a point in time where a breed between the new population and its predecessor failed to produce a fertile offspring, as long it was producing a fertile offspring it ceases to be a chicken and once it fails it can truly be called as a chicken and that one chicken came from an egg, a chicken egg which produces a chicken. So I think it was the chicken's egg which came first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I think you are right, but you have missed something. Whatever criteria we choose for being a chicken , rather than a "pre- chicken" there was, indeed a "first ever chicken". However, that chicken embryo existed before its mother built a shell round it. The chicken came first. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joatmon Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) I think you are right, but you have missed something. Whatever criteria we choose for being a chicken , rather than a "pre- chicken" there was, indeed a "first ever chicken". However, that chicken embryo existed before its mother built a shell round it. The chicken came first. But as that embryo formed was not a set of eggs formed with, and part of, it? Also, did not that embryo form from an egg? (even if the egg was laid by another species? (nobody asked what came first the chicken or the chicken egg). Edited June 2, 2012 by Joatmon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immortal Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I think you are right, but you have missed something. Whatever criteria we choose for being a chicken , rather than a "pre- chicken" there was, indeed a "first ever chicken". However, that chicken embryo existed before its mother built a shell round it. The chicken came first. You've outsmarted me there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 what came first....the chicken or the egg? The rooster. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 (1) But as that embryo formed was not a set of eggs formed with, and part of, it? (2) Also, did not that embryo form from an egg? (even if the egg was laid by another species? (nobody asked what came first the chicken or the chicken egg). 1 Not at first. It was a chicken embryo before its cells differentiated and became it's ovaries. And, of course, there's a 50% chance it was male anyway. 2 No, not entirely. The DNA that defines "chicken" will have come from both parents. Incidentally, I didn't ask about the chicken's egg, because that would be begging the question. The possessive form presupposes that there is a possessor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joatmon Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 1 Not at first. It was a chicken embryo before its cells differentiated and became it's ovaries. And, of course, there's a 50% chance it was male anyway. 2 No, not entirely. The DNA that defines "chicken" will have come from both parents. Incidentally, I didn't ask about the chicken's egg, because that would be begging the question. The possessive form presupposes that there is a possessor. Ok - I surrender! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immortal Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 The correct answer is that the chicken embryo came first but when someone specifically asks whether the chicken or the chicken's egg then the answer is chicken's egg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 There are two possible meanings to "the chicken's egg" one it laid (or would potentially lay) or the one it hatched from In either case, the chicken was there first. Ihe phrase "the chicken's egg" means the belonging to the chicken. If the chicken isn't there yet the egg can't belong to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immortal Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 There is a lot of difference between the words "chicken" and "chicken embryo". I think one should be careful while replacing one with the other. http://msucares.com/poultry/reproductions/poultry_chicks_embryo.html EVENTS IN EMBRYONIC DEVELOPMENT Before Egg Laying:Fertilization Division and growth of living cells Segregation of cells into groups of special function (tissues) Between Laying and IncubationNo growth; stage of inactive embryonic life During Incubation: First day16 hours - first sign of resemblance to a chick embryo 18 hours - appearance of alimentary tract 20 hours - appearance of vertebral column 21 hours - beginning of nervous system 22 hours - beginning of head 24 hours - beginning of eye Second day25 hours - beginning of heart 35 hours - beginning of ear 42 hours - heart beats Third day60 hours - beginning of nose 62 hours - beginning of legs 64 hours - beginning of wings Fourth day - beginning of tongue Fifth day - formation of reproductive organs and differentiation of sex Sixth day - beginning of beak Eighth day - beginning of feathers Tenth day - beginning of hardening of beak Thirteenth day - appearance of scales and claws Fourteenth day - embryo gets into position suitable for breaking shell Sixteenth day - scales, claws and beak becoming firm and horny Seventeenth day - beak turns toward air cell Nineteenth day - yolk sac begins to enter body cavity Twentieth day - yolk sac completely drawn into body cavity; embryo occupies practically all the space within the egg except the air cell Twenty-first day - hatching of chick Throughout this process the organism can be called as a chicken embryo and once it hatches out it is called as a chicken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 It seems to be a matter of nomenclature. I think it's a chicken once it has chicken DNA (even if it's very young). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immortal Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 The definition of an embryo covers the stages from the start of fertilization until it hatches or gives birth. In developmental biology even the protoplasm plays an important role in regulating the expression of DNA and its not all about DNA. Its not appropriate to say that there is something like chicken Kinase or chicken phospharylase. IMO chicken as such doesn't exist until its developmental pathways are well established and distinguished effectively (i.e the first resemblance of a chick embryo). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 OK, so just talking about the DNA was oversimplification but whatever the egg is wrapped around is a thing that is destined to become a chicken. It can not, for example, become a crocodile or a duck. I think it's a chicken. You choose to call it something else. As I said, it depends on the nomenclature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immortal Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Anyways, I have to agree to disagree here, its not convincing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robheus Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 what came first....the chicken or the egg? The chicken-soup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwulf Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 what came first....the chicken or the egg? the chicken. Chickens lay eggs. Eggs don't lay chicken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 I think you are right, but you have missed something. Whatever criteria we choose for being a chicken , rather than a "pre- chicken" there was, indeed a "first ever chicken". However, that chicken embryo existed before its mother built a shell round it. The chicken came first. I disagree, i don't think there was ever a point in time that there was a chicken and before that point there was no chicken. Being a chicken is a spectrum of states and at no point in time would you see a non chicken lay an egg that became a chicken... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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