Industrial revolution... with magnets?

[Valce]

Hi, I have to start a campaign in a pen and paper role-playing game soon and I came up with what I think might be an interesting setting. I just need some information to iron out the details.

 

Skip to the bold part if you don't care about the premises.

 

Basically, the world where the campaign is set is experiencing an ice age: smilodons, mammoths and stuff like that.

 

There is a southern state which is somewhat like Mongolia before the great Khans: fragmented in warring tribes, each led by a Warlord, fighting against each other for food and survival. Ancestor worship, great warriors, supreme hunters, only the strong survive, etc.

 

One Warlord rebels and starts what will be later called "The Revolution of the Weak": he decides to build a central, communist-like state where the people are united and the strong must provide for the weak too. No more self-justice, no more carrying weapons around... the State provides. They basically fail to conquer anything so they have to move north, past the mountain range, and find refuge in an even colder and less hospitable land.

 

 

However, the north is close to the magnetic pole and filled with the most magnetic materials in existence. Coal, on the other hand, is not abundant at all.

 

So, the industrial revolution isn't born on the power of steam but on the power of magnets instead.

The "what if" is: what would have happened if man discovered electromagnetism (or just magnetism) before discovering steam power?

 

I need to know what are the most low-tech possible applications of magnets for everyday life. I don't want the setting to have electric current: ideally I want an average technological level which is late medieval, with some interesting technological gadgets. Think a mix between ice age hunter-gatherers and viking warriors... with rail guns.

 

Ideally, I don't want electricity at all.

 

The things I need the most are:

- a low tech way to produce high heat with magnets (to work iron and other metals)

- a low tech way to move sea (and maybe land) vehicles with magnets. Early submersible vehicles would be ideal and awesome (the way of access to the sea in the north is filled with iceberg and storms, so sailing under the sea surface is much safer)

- a low tech way to shoot a bullet with magnets

 

I don't know if there's anything else I might want magnets to do which might be useful.

 

Anything low-tech that requires magnets but no electricity is OK.

 

Thanks for your help!

[Moontanman]

Hi, I have to start a campaign in a pen and paper role-playing game soon and I came up with what I think might be an interesting setting. I just need some information to iron out the details.

 

Skip to the bold part if you don't care about the premises.

 

Basically, the world where the campaign is set is experiencing an ice age: smilodons, mammoths and stuff like that.

 

There is a southern state which is somewhat like Mongolia before the great Khans: fragmented in warring tribes, each led by a Warlord, fighting against each other for food and survival. Ancestor worship, great warriors, supreme hunters, only the strong survive, etc.

 

One Warlord rebels and starts what will be later called "The Revolution of the Weak": he decides to build a central, communist-like state where the people are united and the strong must provide for the weak too. No more self-justice, no more carrying weapons around... the State provides. They basically fail to conquer anything so they have to move north, past the mountain range, and find refuge in an even colder and less hospitable land.

 

 

However, the north is close to the magnetic pole and filled with the most magnetic materials in existence. Coal, on the other hand, is not abundant at all.

 

So, the industrial revolution isn't born on the power of steam but on the power of magnets instead.

The "what if" is: what would have happened if man discovered electromagnetism (or just magnetism) before discovering steam power?

 

I need to know what are the most low-tech possible applications of magnets for everyday life. I don't want the setting to have electric current: ideally I want an average technological level which is late medieval, with some interesting technological gadgets. Think a mix between ice age hunter-gatherers and viking warriors... with rail guns.

 

Ideally, I don't want electricity at all.

 

The things I need the most are:

- a low tech way to produce high heat with magnets (to work iron and other metals)

- a low tech way to move sea (and maybe land) vehicles with magnets. Early submersible vehicles would be ideal and awesome (the way of access to the sea in the north is filled with iceberg and storms, so sailing under the sea surface is much safer)

- a low tech way to shoot a bullet with magnets

 

I don't know if there's anything else I might want magnets to do which might be useful.

 

Anything low-tech that requires magnets but no electricity is OK.

 

Thanks for your help!

 

Sadly naturally occurring magnets cannot do any of the things you desire. Magnetism was indeed discovered before the steam engine, they were indeed revolutionary, magnets changed the world, they were used to make compasses...

Edited June 3, 2012 by Moontanman

[Valce]

Sadly naturally occurring magnets cannot do any of the things you desire. Magnetism was indeed discovered before the steam engine, they were indeed revolutionary, magnets changed the world, they were used to make compasses...

 

That's sad indeed... what if we add electricity into the mix?

Would anything like that be feasible if men used man-powered dynamos to charge electromagnets?

 

Like, 10 people rowing to activate a dynamo, all of which connect to an electric engine which moves a turbine?

Would that be better than 10 people rowing with oars (not in terms of energy produced but in terms of actually moving the ship)

[Moontanman]

That's sad indeed... what if we add electricity into the mix?

Would anything like that be feasible if men used man-powered dynamos to charge electromagnets?

 

Like, 10 people rowing to activate a dynamo, all of which connect to an electric engine which moves a turbine?

Would that be better than 10 people rowing with oars (not in terms of energy produced but in terms of actually moving the ship)

 

 

Do you realize that what you suggest is having advanced technology and only using a tiny part of it... right? To make a dynamo to make electricity to power an electric motor to run a ship using human power? I'm not sure I understand why you would want to ignore all the technology that would come with generators and dynamos and such... I'm really not sure the technology you want to use could exist in a vacuum lacking all the other aspects of relevant technology.

 

BTW, I'm not saying it's impossible, it is an interesting idea, at one time the effects of lode stones was considered to be "magic" I'm just not sure how much you could use magnetism with out all the other parts of technology it takes to do things like make rail guns or generators....a refrigerator magnet is evidence of just as much technology as the refrigerator...

[Valce]

Do you realize that what you suggest is having advanced technology and only using a tiny part of it... right? To make a dynamo to make electricity to power an electric motor to run a ship using human power? I'm not sure I understand why you would want to ignore all the technology that would come with generators and dynamos and such... I'm really not sure the technology you want to use could exist in a vacuum lacking all the other aspects of relevant technology.

 

I like the idea of a world in which technologies are discovered in a different order, compared to ours. And I like the idea of intrepid viking warriors with railguns.

 

However, I don't want the setting to be completely silly, and I'd like it to be somewhat scientifically accurate.

 

So, isn't there any way to use magnetism in any meaningful way in an otherwise low-tech world to do things which would be otherwise done with steam power or other sources of power?

 

How advanced would their technology need to be, by your estimates?

Suppose around AD 1300 some guy discovers electricity, then research basically goes 100% in the direction of electromagnetism. How long 'till we get boats, early submersible vehicles and rudimentary railguns/gauss guns/magnetic crossbows? What other "side" technology would they have most probably developed?

Edited June 3, 2012 by Valce

[InigoMontoya]

So, isn't there any way to use magnetism in any meaningful way in an otherwise low-tech world to do things which would be otherwise done with steam power or other sources of power?

Nope.

 

However, if you like the idea of different orders of discovery or technology mastery... Perhaps mastering the propeller before mastering the steam engine? Instead of having a dozen guys rowing you could have a dozen guys cranking on a bronze-age bicycle of sorts hooked to a prop to make the boat go. It's got a couple of things going for it... Legs are stronger than arms. Props are more efficient than oars. Combine those two and you've got a kick arse boat for the day.

 

Note that one of the problems with your basic premise is that to get all those neato electrical devices one must first master metal working on a large scale. To do that, one needs a source of power beyond mere muscle. Maybe you could skip the steam engine by using water wheels and going straight for electrical power, but you couldn't change the order radically simply because electrical power is reliant upon a large number of previously mastered technologies.

Edited June 3, 2012 by InigoMontoya

[Valce]

Nope.

 

However, if you like the idea of different orders of discovery or technology mastery... Perhaps mastering the propeller before mastering the steam engine? Instead of having a dozen guys rowing you could have a dozen guys cranking on a bronze-age bicycle of sorts hooked to a prop to make the boat go. It's got a couple of things going for it... Legs are stronger than arms. Props are more efficient than oars. Combine those two and you've got a kick arse boat for the day.

 

Note that one of the problems with your basic premise is that to get all those neato electrical devices one must first master metal working on a large scale. To do that, one needs a source of power beyond mere muscle. Maybe you could skip the steam engine by using water wheels and going straight for electrical power, but you couldn't change the order radically simply because electrical power is reliant upon a large number of previously mastered technologies.

 

I like the prop idea! So, let's assume the propeller was invented fairly early.

Let's also assume we skip the steam engine because hydrocarbons are scarce and the discovery simply doesn't happen.

 

How could these people use wind and/or water to power furnaces for large-scale metalworking?

Also, how much "side technologies" are we talking about? What technologies would they most certainly master somewhere along the way?

[InigoMontoya]

How could these people use wind and/or water to power furnaces for large-scale metalworking?

Well, they really couldn't.

 

I was primarily concerned with ore processing and forced air furnaces with the water wheel concept. You wouldn't be able to use that as your source of heat. You'd still need a fuel source. Wood could work, but I gather you're interested in a decidedly barren landscape.

 

Also, how much "side technologies" are we talking about? What technologies would they most certainly master somewhere along the way?

Virtually everything that doesn't fall under thermodynamics would HAVE to be mastered.

[Moontanman]

Looks like the Romans had everything but the propeller...

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_technology