The truth that I can't escape is that there is no deeper meaning

[Appolinaria]

What I did was to ask that the off-topic comments be moved to their own thread, which they were (here). I didn't know whether to describe you as apathetic, nihilistic, or depressed... which is why I wrote all three... But frankly, I really don't care, and I'm not sure why you're taking such issue with it.

 

Not everyone struggles to find meaning without god in the way you're describing, so frankly I don't think your questions are normal. Just because there probably isn't a god doesn't mean your life is any different, and it fascinates me that you would argue otherwise.

 

Overall, though... Your lack of meaning in life is a YP, not an MP. The term "depression" was only one of three words I chose to summarize the conversation taking place. That's all. Chillax.

 

Do you understand what you've just said? If giving up on "God" doesn't make my life any different, why do you argue against theism in the first place? That's my problem, not yours? Why do you fight endlessly for atheism, then?

[iNow]

I don't fight "for" atheism. I fight for the eradication of ignorance in all of its many forms. It just so happens that the baseless belief in god(s) in the face of such profoundly inadequate evidence is one of the most prominent forms of ignorance we see in our society today.

[zapatos]

It's a shame that I can't freely discuss my uneasiness about existence, the meaning of the universe and question the purpose of life with others. I think these are normal feelings that no one should be afraid to discuss.

That is a shame. If you want to discuss your uneasiness then you should give it your best shot.

[Appolinaria]

That is a shame. If you want to discuss your uneasiness then you should give it your best shot.

 

But then why did you say I should take drugs? That implies that I am dysfunctional and leaves me feeling hesitant.

[the asinine cretin]

Not everyone struggles to find meaning without god in the way you're describing, so frankly I don't think your questions are normal.

There are a great many things that "not everyone" thinks about. This says nothing of significance. Not everyone thinks about important questions of epistemology or ontology. Not everyone is interested in particle physics. Therefore, what? In philosophy the big existential questions are quite "normal." Recommending meds to a person who is pursuing a topic that you aren't interested in seems kinda assholian (zapatos?). Declarations about what is "normal" seem similarly devoid of import.

Edited June 3, 2012 by the asinine cretin

[zapatos]

But then why did you say I should take drugs? That implies that I am dysfunctional and leaves me feeling hesitant.

Well, I guess there are two things.

 

First, I seem to have a different view of drugs than maybe you do. To me they are a tool, often very effective at addressing certain conditions. I take blood pressure medicine and it works very well. I also recently started taking medicine for anxiety due to issues with my mother. Drinking scotch relaxes me. Caffeine is my favorite drug of all. I readily admit my deficiencies and don't feel bad about it.

 

Second, based on your previous posts, it sounded to me as if you had thoughts and feelings that were weighing on you, and that the only reason they were weighing on you was in your mind. For example, if you were worried about bankruptcy, that is in your mind but something may come from it, such as loss of your home. Being unable to find purpose, knowing someone somewhere will be in an accident, knowing an accident can happen through no fault of our own; these are things that are in your mind only. No harm would come of just ignoring these ideas and you could feel better.

 

I tend to be practical rather than philisophical. If I'm hungry I eat. If I have a headache I take aspirin. If I'm feeling fat I exercise. All of these are practical things I can do to make me feel better. And if I'm anxious I look for a solution to that. I started taking medicine for it and I feel better.

I see no reason to avoid practical solutions to my issues. Taking drugs has been a simple solution for certain situations for me.

 

I apologize if I seemed dismissive. Poor communication on my part rather than intent.

[the asinine cretin]

DMT might help.

 

(The use of the word "help" is me being facetious. I don't think that the open exploration of existential questions implies a need for help.)

[zapatos]

I guess we see different things in the posts.

[Appolinaria]

Well, I guess there are two things.

 

First, I seem to have a different view of drugs than maybe you do. To me they are a tool, often very effective at addressing certain conditions. I take blood pressure medicine and it works very well. I also recently started taking medicine for anxiety due to issues with my mother. Drinking scotch relaxes me. Caffeine is my favorite drug of all. I readily admit my deficiencies and don't feel bad about it.

 

Second, based on your previous posts, it sounded to me as if you had thoughts and feelings that were weighing on you, and that the only reason they were weighing on you was in your mind. For example, if you were worried about bankruptcy, that is in your mind but something may come from it, such as loss of your home. Being unable to find purpose, knowing someone somewhere will be in an accident, knowing an accident can happen through no fault of our own; these are things that are in your mind only. No harm would come of just ignoring these ideas and you could feel better.

 

I tend to be practical rather than philisophical. If I'm hungry I eat. If I have a headache I take aspirin. If I'm feeling fat I exercise. All of these are practical things I can do to make me feel better. And if I'm anxious I look for a solution to that. I started taking medicine for it and I feel better.

I see no reason to avoid practical solutions to my issues. Taking drugs has been a simple solution for certain situations for me.

 

I apologize if I seemed dismissive. Poor communication on my part rather than intent.

 

I apologize for getting upset. I took it personally when I shouldn't have.

 

But the disturbing facts of life aren't in my mind only. These things happen in reality. I don't see how they can be ignored.

[zapatos]

But the disturbing facts of life aren't in my mind only. These things happen in reality. I don't see how they can be ignored.

Yes, the disturbing facts are there, but they only bother you because you think about them. Some disturbing facts can be safely ignored because they will remain exactly the same whether you worry about them or not.

 

You might be bothered that lions kill cubs, but if lions killed cubs and you did not know about it (or think about it), then you wouldn't be bothered. I meant the only 'harm' to you is in your mind. This is different from harm that comes to you whether you are oblivious to it or not, such as the harm that comes from bankruptcy. It may bother you thinking about bankruptcy, but even if you were oblivious to your own bankruptcy it would affect you when you were put on the street.

 

I try not to worry about things I can have no impact on. For example, I will lose exactly the same number of loved ones whether I worry about it or not. The universe sucks or not. My fretting over it will not change the universe, it will only make me have a bad day rather than a good day.

 

If my worrying can have a practical impact then I'm more likely to worry. If I'm worried about going bankrupt, my thinking of it all day may help me come up with some solutions that I can attempt in order to stave off bankruptcy.

 

My view is that 'worry' is something to be avoided if no benefit can come of it.

[Appolinaria]

Yes, the disturbing facts are there, but they only bother you because you think about them. Some disturbing facts can be safely ignored because they will remain exactly the same whether you worry about them or not.

 

You might be bothered that lions kill cubs, but if lions killed cubs and you did not know about it (or think about it), then you wouldn't be bothered. I meant the only 'harm' to you is in your mind. This is different from harm that comes to you whether you are oblivious to it or not, such as the harm that comes from bankruptcy. It may bother you thinking about bankruptcy, but even if you were oblivious to your own bankruptcy it would affect you when you were put on the street.

 

I try not to worry about things I can have no impact on. For example, I will lose exactly the same number of loved ones whether I worry about it or not. The universe sucks or not. My fretting over it will not change the universe, it will only make me have a bad day rather than a good day.

 

If my worrying can have a practical impact then I'm more likely to worry. If I'm worried about going bankrupt, my thinking of it all day may help me come up with some solutions that I can attempt in order to stave off bankruptcy.

 

My view is that 'worry' is something to be avoided if no benefit can come of it.

 

Thanks for this, it makes a lot of sense. I will attempt to follow your advice. Please don't answer the following if it's too personal. What do you define as a good day? Do you live your life because the good days outnumber the bad significantly?

Edited June 4, 2012 by Appolinaria

[the asinine cretin]

Free shows!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Adagio

Edited June 4, 2012 by the asinine cretin

[Polednice]

However, I see no purpose in trying to convince theists that they are wrong... there is really no point for this since there is no point to our existence at all. I would rather them be happy on this random rock in the middle of nowhere. Who cares. Why fight it.

 

And yet I presume you are neither actively engaged in suicide attempts, nor waiting to simply waste away. Why? Most likely because you simply cannot help the fact that you are hard-wired to value things, and if you value survival, or even just a lack of a painful death, that opens up a big question about what else to value seeing as you've started.

 

The real shackle that you need to free yourself from is the idea religion crapped out that eternal absolutism grants extra meaning. It doesn't - that's vapid, hollow, and worthless. Having a despot or an arbiter in charge doesn't make our values Real or True, it adds no value whatsoever. We shouldn't even indulge in thoughts of meaning or no meaning, it's a completely bogus concept - just concern yourself with well-being, and for that to thrive, religion must die!

[the asinine cretin]

The real shackle that you need to free yourself from is the idea religion crapped out that eternal absolutism grants extra meaning. It doesn't - that's vapid, hollow, and worthless. Having a despot or an arbiter in charge doesn't make our values Real or True, it adds no value whatsoever. We shouldn't even indulge in thoughts of meaning or no meaning, it's a completely bogus concept - just concern yourself with well-being, and for that to thrive, religion must die!

 

You've reminded me of

. Free shows rule. (

.)

[mississippichem]

And yet I presume you are neither actively engaged in suicide attempts, nor waiting to simply waste away. Why? Most likely because you simply cannot help the fact that you are hard-wired to value things, and if you value survival, or even just a lack of a painful death, that opens up a big question about what else to value seeing as you've started.

 

The real shackle that you need to free yourself from is the idea religion crapped out that eternal absolutism grants extra meaning. It doesn't - that's vapid, hollow, and worthless. Having a despot or an arbiter in charge doesn't make our values Real or True, it adds no value whatsoever. We shouldn't even indulge in thoughts of meaning or no meaning, it's a completely bogus concept - just concern yourself with well-being, and for that to thrive, religion must die!

 

Sorry that this post adds no value to the thread. But I thought you should be commended publicly.

 

Best post of the month. Spot on. Nailed it. Amen +1

[the asinine cretin]

Sorry that this post adds no value to the thread. But I thought you should be commended publicly.

 

Best post of the month. Spot on. Nailed it. Amen +1

I agree. And btw, Kagan spanks WLC repeatedly on that point in the first show included in post #39. Good stuff for those who like such entertainment.

Edited June 4, 2012 by the asinine cretin

[Appolinaria]

And yet I presume you are neither actively engaged in suicide attempts, nor waiting to simply waste away. Why? Most likely because you simply cannot help the fact that you are hard-wired to value things, and if you value survival, or even just a lack of a painful death, that opens up a big question about what else to value seeing as you've started.

 

The real shackle that you need to free yourself from is the idea religion crapped out that eternal absolutism grants extra meaning. It doesn't - that's vapid, hollow, and worthless. Having a despot or an arbiter in charge doesn't make our values Real or True, it adds no value whatsoever. We shouldn't even indulge in thoughts of meaning or no meaning, it's a completely bogus concept - just concern yourself with well-being, and for that to thrive, religion must die!

 

Just concern myself with well being? I already do that. I care only about myself and keeping myself comfortable. I jump from one means of pleasure to the next.

 

 

However, this leaves me terribly unsatisfied and unhappy.

[iNow]

What do you define as a good day?

Usually ones where there is ice cream involved. Often, my motorcycle and twisty country road. Other times, sex. Still others, when I test my blood sugar and it says 100. When I finish something intensely hard at work, and know I did it right. When I help someone else and realize that's the best thing that happened to them today. When I make a good argument, or articulate a point more clearly than I ever have in the past. When I wake up and realize I have a home and a job. When I go to bed and realize I have comfortable bed and a full belly.

 

The point really is that a good day is whatever I want it to be and whenever I want it to be. That's the beauty of this existence. It's not always sunshine and lollipops. Often, it sucks hard. Life is littered with pain, but the pain gives texture and richness to the times that aren't... Like when I have ice cream.

[zapatos]

Thanks for this, it makes a lot of sense. I will attempt to follow your advice. Please don't answer the following if it's too personal. What do you define as a good day? Do you live your life because the good days outnumber the bad significantly?

Good questions, and not something I've really thought about all that much. So I'll tell you what I think, but since I haven't examined this very much I may change my mind over time.

 

I guess for me a good day is when the people I care about are doing as well as they wish or as well as can be expected. A lot of that is on them but much of it is on me too.

 

My responsibility to them includes things like providing shelter, food, education, emotional support, help, and making sure that they are at least as happy after they've seen me as they were before they saw me. Me being able to do my part has a great deal to do with me having a good day.

 

My kids aren't where they want to be yet, but they are working at it and I am helping them. This leads me to a good day.

 

My mother is elderly and doing poorly, but she is doing as well as can be expected. Knowing that she is doing as well as can be expected makes it easier to not let her condition cause me to have a bad day.

 

Volunteer work always makes me feel like I'm having a good day.

 

I like doing things for myself too, but I'm easy to please. I can be kept happy with good books, good conversation, being outdoors, and being around others.

 

I have significantly more good days than bad, but I imagine I would live my life just fine if it was the other way around. If I could make the lives of others better only 5% of the time, especially the lives of my family, my life would be well worth living.

[iNow]

However, this leaves me terribly unsatisfied and unhappy.

Only you have the power to change this. Nobody else can do it for you. Are you exercising?

[the asinine cretin]

Deep experiences of prayer and meditation, comfort and strength from the presence of God, profound communion with humanity and the cosmos through the apprehension of the divine, and so on. A transcendent inner peace. A heart swollen with divine love in self-surrender and giving; a freedom and joy that few experience. Mystical union with God. The assurance of eternal life and of joining loved ones in the heart of God who is the source of all beauty and goodness. The writings of saints and mystics, or generally those of profound humanity and experience. Thinking of these things the above kinds of fulfillment seem more asinine than I am. No offense to anyone, just thinking about how powerful religion can be.

 

[Edited to add something]

 

 

Edited June 4, 2012 by the asinine cretin

[Appolinaria]

And yet I presume you are neither actively engaged in suicide attempts, nor waiting to simply waste away. Why? Most likely because you simply cannot help the fact that you are hard-wired to value things, and if you value survival, or even just a lack of a painful death, that opens up a big question about what else to value seeing as you've started.

 

The real shackle that you need to free yourself from is the idea religion crapped out that eternal absolutism grants extra meaning. It doesn't - that's vapid, hollow, and worthless. Having a despot or an arbiter in charge doesn't make our values Real or True, it adds no value whatsoever. We shouldn't even indulge in thoughts of meaning or no meaning, it's a completely bogus concept - just concern yourself with well-being, and for that to thrive, religion must die!

 

I think living solely for my own well being is vapid, hollow, and worthless.

 

And I find the whole "religion must die" thing too vague for the problems of society. The flaw isn't in the concept, it's in the human. If it's not about preaching the bible, they will probably be overzealous about something else, like atheism. And try to impose that on people too. Humans are incredibly malleable and easily shaped into belief systems. Why so many believe the death of religion will fix that problem is beyond me. Good luck.

 

Groups of people will form and want to be superior to other groups. Humans argue to argue. We will always find shit to fight about. I also don't think this ridiculous aspect of our nature only falls into the realm of religion.

Edited June 4, 2012 by Appolinaria

[doG]

A transcendent inner peace. A heart swollen with divine love in self-surrender and giving; a freedom and joy that few experience.

I enjoy this but it isn't rooted in the belief of any deities. For me it is my belief as a humanist.

[the asinine cretin]

I think living solely for my own well being is vapid, hollow, and worthless.

I feel the same way. If this weren't so I don't think religion would quite have the attraction and power that it does. There is beauty to a life lived for others, or for a transcendent end. And I think there is something sad about a self-centered life.

 

I enjoy this but it isn't rooted in the belief of any deities. For me it is my belief as a humanist.

 

I hear ya. I'm still figuring things out, but I find profundity in many aspects of the natural world and of humanity. Amen.

[Appolinaria]

Good questions, and not something I've really thought about all that much. So I'll tell you what I think, but since I haven't examined this very much I may change my mind over time.

 

I guess for me a good day is when the people I care about are doing as well as they wish or as well as can be expected. A lot of that is on them but much of it is on me too.

 

My responsibility to them includes things like providing shelter, food, education, emotional support, help, and making sure that they are at least as happy after they've seen me as they were before they saw me. Me being able to do my part has a great deal to do with me having a good day.

 

My kids aren't where they want to be yet, but they are working at it and I am helping them. This leads me to a good day.

 

My mother is elderly and doing poorly, but she is doing as well as can be expected. Knowing that she is doing as well as can be expected makes it easier to not let her condition cause me to have a bad day.

 

Volunteer work always makes me feel like I'm having a good day.

 

I like doing things for myself too, but I'm easy to please. I can be kept happy with good books, good conversation, being outdoors, and being around others.

 

I have significantly more good days than bad, but I imagine I would live my life just fine if it was the other way around. If I could make the lives of others better only 5% of the time, especially the lives of my family, my life would be well worth living.

 

This was really nice to read. I respect the fact that you appreciate life and love your family as much as you do. As well as volunteer, that's great.

 

P.S. I really hope your Mom is alright. That's hard to deal with on a daily basis, I bet.