Psychosis and Religious Devotion

[ydoaPs]

One sometimes hears of murder cases where the defendant thought they were battling demons or that God told them to do it. They are immediately labelled by the religious as insane. How can we make that judgement, though? If they are part of a religious tradition that teaches that demons are real (and can possess people) and that God literally tells people to kill others, how can we tell fervent belief from mental illness?

 

Are religious people only sane if they don't really believe what their story books say? Are literalists sane? Where and how do we draw the line?

 

 

 

 

 

If you hear a voice in your head claiming to be God and it tells you to kill your child (just like in the Bible), is it insane to listen?

[iNow]

I don't think mental illness is an "either/or" issue. I think it exists along a spectrum wherein some people are VERY mentally ill and others are less so.

 

Voices in your head, though? Yeah, you've got issues. Probably need meds.

Those voices are telling you to kill others, even your kids? Congratulations! You've just won a lifetime vacation to a padded room with regular feedings!

 

A deeper question I read in your post, however, is how much we accept a belief that is the result of teachings from others versus how much we accept a belief that derived organically in the persons own mind. I suspect we'd almost never accept the latter, yet we accept beliefs shared through indoctrination all of the time and have for centuries considered it acceptable.

 

Where on the spectrum of mentally ill does that fall? Are snake handlers more crazy than the Jesus camp people? Are believers in Allah any crazier than believers in Yahweh? Is there really a difference in mental illness between methodists and baptists? It's a solidly good question.

[ydoaPs]

Voices in your head, though? Yeah, you've got issues. Probably need meds.

Those voices are telling you to kill others, even your kids? Congratulations! You've just won a lifetime vacation to a padded room with regular feedings!

 

But what if it really is God? There are people that sincerely believe that God literally spoke to Abraham and had him kill his son (though he stopped him).

 

A little less clear cut, though, it killing "demons" as that doesn't necessarily involve hallucinations.

[immortal]

Many people claim to hear voices from God and I don't think one can be certain that it came from God only by hearing a voice, it has too much noise and too much uncertainty, the brain does process things differently sometimes. However if God had literally appeared in form and had spoke to you then it is very much sane to kill your child. In God's terms you're not doing anything wrong, you're doing God's work but that doesn't excuse you from people pelting stones at you or from putting you behind bars. You still have to subject yourself to social normal justice.

[Phi for All]

Many people claim to hear voices from God and I don't think one can be certain that it came from God only by hearing a voice, it has too much noise and too much uncertainty, the brain does process things differently sometimes. However if God had literally appeared in form and had spoke to you then it is very much sane to kill your child. In God's terms you're not doing anything wrong, you're doing God's work but that doesn't excuse you from people pelting stones at you or from putting you behind bars. You still have to subject yourself to social normal justice.

But for people who have utter, unbending faith in the Abrahamic god, how can they not question something that appears to them saying It is their God and It wants them to kill their child? Couldn't this be Satan in disguise? In fact, isn't it more likely Satan in disguise since killing children isn't supposed to be a virtuous act these days? Wouldn't it still be insane to believe God wants YOU to kill your child, instead of taking that child in all the myriad ways It could on It's own?

[Appolinaria]

However if God had literally appeared in form and had spoke to you then it is very much sane to kill your child.

 

Really?

[Greg H.]

However if God had literally appeared in form and had spoke to you then it is very much sane to kill your child.

Really?

 

 

I'm with Appolinaria here.

 

If you have enough emotional detachment that you can murder your own child on the say so of a man claiming to be the Almighty, please do the rest of society a favor and proceed directly to your nearest mental health facility for a mandatory 72 hour hold and eval.

Edited June 4, 2012 by Greg H.

[Polednice]

It's certainly hypocritical for the religious to condemn the revelations of others when they already endorse fantastical thinking, however I think as inconsistent as its results would be, it's reasonable to measure sanity in terms of normalcy. In the U.S., while there are some crackpot religious sects, it is generally unheard of for people to witness the divine in person, so someone claiming such an experience may have something wrong with them. Yet, in some African societies, demons are tangible entities and witches are routinely murdered. Such acts would be considered 'insane' in the U.S., but they cannot be considered 'insane' in their home environment because they are an established cultural norm. The superstition needs to be fought against, of course, but it's not a sign of mental illness.

Edited June 4, 2012 by Polednice

[ydoaPs]

It's certainly hypocritical for the religious to condemn the revelations of others when they already endorse fantastical thinking, however I think as inconsistent as its results would be, it's reasonable to measure sanity in terms of normalcy. In the U.S., while there are some crackpot religious sects, it is generally unheard of for people to witness the divine in person, so someone claiming such an experience may have something wrong with them. Yet, in some African societies, demons are tangible entities and witches are routinely murdered. Such acts would be considered 'insane' in the U.S., but they cannot be considered 'insane' in their home environment because they are an established cultural norm. The superstition needs to be fought against, of course, because it's not a sign of mental illness.

 

I've always thought that was a weird standard. If 70% of the population had kidney disease, I feel as though it would still be seen as a disease. But if 70% of the population has schizophrenic hallucinations, they're perfectly well.

[Polednice]

I've always thought that was a weird standard. If 70% of the population had kidney disease, I feel as though it would still be seen as a disease. But if 70% of the population has schizophrenic hallucinations, they're perfectly well.

 

What is ill health, physical or mental, but the deviation from a common anatomical blueprint?

 

If 70% of the population had schizophrenic hallucinations, we wouldn't consider them well because we have diagnostic tools that would lead us to believe there is a mass outbreak of schizophrenia. The issue here is to delineate between mental illness, which is rooted in a physical malfunction of the brain, and cultural norms which manifest to outsiders as 'insane', but which, in fact, arise without any biological dysfunction.

[immortal]

Really?

 

 

People have done crazy things in the name of devotion. I said that based on such legends. Religion is a way of life for such people and they abide in the truth of god.

 

If these legends are literally true then I don't find any insanity in it, it makes perfect sense.

 

 

 

Kannappan

Kannappa stopped by Shiva as he tries to remove his second eye.In another incident (thiru vilayadal of Lord Shiva), one day Thinnan or Dheeran noticed that one of the eyes of the Shiva linga was oozing blood and tears. Sensing that the Lord's eye had been injured, Dheeran proceeded to pluck his one eye out with one of his arrows and placed it in the spot of the bleeding eye of the Shiva linga. This stopped the bleeding in that eye of the linga.

 

But to complicate matters further, he noticed that the other eye of the linga has also started oozing blood. So Thinnan thought that if he were to pluck his other eye too, he would become blind to exactly know the spot where he has to place his own second eye over the bleeding second eye of the lingam. So he placed his great toe on the linga to mark the spot of the bleeding second eye and proceeded to pluck out his other and only eye.

 

Moved by his extreme devotion, Lord Shiva appeared before Thinnan and restored both his eyes.

 

"Nillu Kannappa" ("Stop Kannappan!")

 

He made Thinnan as one of the Nayanmars and henceforth he would be called as Kannappan or Kannappa Nayanar.

 

 

 

 

Here is a legend where a devotee gouged one of his eyeballs and almost went on to take out the other one.

 

http://en.wikipedia.....27s_ideal_life

 

 

Harishchandra had two unique qualities. The first being, he kept his word and never went back on what he uttered as a promise. The other being, he never uttered a lie in his life.

 

It is said that the great sage Vishwamitra, once approached Harishchandra and informed him of a promise made by the king during the sage's dream to donate his entire kingdom. (Accounts differ on how the sage had got the promise from the king. Some other legends say, it was by way of pacification when the king had once disturbed the sage's penance to his consternation.)Harishchandra was so virtuous, that he immediately made good his word and donated his entire kingdom to the sage and walked away with his wife and son.

 

Since, the entire world was under the sage after he donated his kingdom, the king had to go to Varanasi, a holy town dedicated to Lord Shiva. This was now the only place outside the influence of the sage. But the sage proclaimed that for an act of donation to be completed, an additional amount as Dakshina (honorarium) had to be paid. Harishchandra, with no money in his hands, had to sell his wife and son to a Brahmin Grihastha to pay for the Dakshina. When the money collected still did not suffice for the purpose, he sold himself to a guard at the cremation ground, who was in charge of collecting taxes for the bodies to be cremated.

 

The king, his wife and son had to sustain tremendous hardships doing their respective chores. The king helped the guard cremate the dead bodies, while his wife and son were used as household helpers at the house of the Brahmin. Once, the son had been to the garden to pluck flowers for his master's prayer, when he was bitten by a snake and he died instantly. His mother, having nobody to sympathise for her, carried his body to the cremation grounds. In acute penury, she could not even pay the taxes needed to cremate him. Harishchandra did not recognise his wife and son. He asked the lady to sell her golden mangalasutra and pay the tax. It is at this instance that his wife recognises the man as her husband. She has a boon that her husband only could see her mangalasutra. Harishchandra then came to her and recognised her as his wife and was stung by pangs of agony.

 

But, Harishchandra, was dutybound by his job to perform the cremation only after the acceptance of the tax. So, he asked his wife, if she was willing to undergo further hardships and stand by him in this hour of calamity

 

story continued....

 

http://www.nadiastro...oga_Sastra.html

 

 

CHANDRAMATHI SENTENCED TO DEATH At the same time, Kaasi (Varanasi - Banaras)rajan's child was lost so his guards came in search of the lost child. (Prince) Where Chandramathi was making her way through the woods with the prince (Kasi Raja's child) over her shoulders, the guards who saw Kaasi (Varanasi - Banaras) Raja's child over Chandramathi's shoulders concluded that it was Chandramathi who had stolen the child (Prince) and had killed him. So, they took her to their King. The King did not conduct an investigation into the matter of his child's death, but blindly confirmed that it was Chandramathi who had murdered his child in cold blood and so he ordered the guards to get her beheaded. At once Kaasi (Varanasi - Banaras) Raja's men said about the allotted task by telling Veeravaagu that the King has passed orders to get Chandramathi beheaded by chief guard of the graveyard namely Sre Harishchandra (Sathya Harishchandra) . Sre Harishchandra (Sathya Harishchandra) knew that Chandramathi was innocent of the crime, but decided to carry out the orders of the King.

 

 

SRE HARICHANDRA(SRE HARISHCHANDRA) EXECUTES THE ORDERS OF THE KING Sre Harishchandra (Sathya Harishchandra) asked Chandramathi to show her neck in order to perform the allotted task and raised his sward. At that instant Sage Viswamithra prevented him from from laying his sward on her neck. Sage Viswamithra said," You know that Chandramathi is innocent of the crime. Is it not wrong on your part to kill an innocent person? Therefore do not kill her. Sre Harishchandra (Sathya Harishchandra) replied that he knew Chandramathi was innocent of any crime, but he was bound to obey the orders of the King and at the same time he had to be loyal to his master and his service. Thus, as a main guard of the graveyard of Kaasi (Varanasi - Banaras) he confirmed that it was right to kill Chandramathi. With these words Sre Harishchandra (Sathya Harishchandra) raised his sward, which to his utter astonishment did not cause a wound when it dropped on her neck. But in place of the wound there was a flower garland. Thus, Sre Harishchandra (Sathya Harishchandra) failed in his second attempt of killing Chandramathi. Sre Harishchandra (Sathya Harishchandra) was disappointed because he could not execute the orders of the King. So, with great devotion and humility he prayed to "Lord Umaamageswaran"(God Viswanaathar and his consort Goddess Visaalaakhshi) who exercised there over lordship over Kaasi (Varanasi - Banaras). He said,"O God, I honestly abide by the principles of Truth and Justice. Therefore when I lay my sword on Chandramathi's neck for the third time, both of you must extend your support to me and help in my endeavor to behead her". He then raised his sword for the third time and was about to lay it on Chandramathi's neck.

 

 

Influence on Mahatma Gandhi

This moving story affected one of the great men of the 19th-20th century, Mahatma Gandhi who was deeply influenced by the virtues of telling the truth when he watched the play of Harishchandra in his childhood.

 

 

Here the King almost went on to kill his own wife even though he knew that she was innocent.

 

 

Yet another story narrates how Vithoba(God) resurrected the child of Gora Kumbara (potter), who had been trampled into the clay by Gora while singing the name of Vithoba.^[104]

 

 

Here a potter stamped and killed his own child while he was unaware of himself and was lost in his devotional singing towards his god.

 

 

http://www.lingayath...index.php?id=32

 

 

Yes, it is true, he has given us rebirth, he is a Mahatma. On one hand he has given the religious equality for the downtrodden and also on the other hand was successfully given the religious equality to women. From these two angles we should not be indebted to him.... therefore we shall do one thing ; we shall dedicate a beautiful pair of shoes to him prepared using skin from your left thigh and my right thigh."

 

" Oh ! what a noble and divine idea Kalyani ! I am greatly satisfied by this idea..." uttered Haralaiah. He finished pooja and started working. They removed skin from their thigh and prepared a beautiful pair of shoes.

 

In the next day, by covering those shoes - the symbol of dedication- in care and devotion with a silk cloth, Haralaiah's family set out for Mahamane-Basavanna's residence while hundreds of people were visiting Mahamane to have a glimpse of Basavanna, Haralaiah was struken as he was hesitant to go on with his small gift and was standing outside. Basavanna's though eyes could not see the heart could and he came out and hugged him with great affection and welcomed Haralaiah. Haralaiah was shocked by this gesture." Is it possible for him to hug and welcome a pariah like me ? This caused him pain. But Basavanna, with a regretting smile, said "Haralaiah, still don't you know the essence of my principle whether he is a son of a Dasi or a son of prostitute. One should understand that after the initiation he is a devotee of shiva. The concepts of high or low is just an illusion. All are equal in the eyes of God. That which glitter in the eyes and the soul is nothing but the sentient of God ! If you can thwart off this mis-concept of low status and become bold with brimming confidence that would be a great fortune for me, please come !..." With great affection he took them inside. Basavanna was astonished by the beauty and artistic excellence of the shoes dedicated by Haralaiah" O Guru Basava, you are my father, mother and everything. You are the Mahatma and you have given us religion - God and initiation. I don't have suitable gift for such a great personality. But please accept these shoes with generosity as gift without rejecting them." With great humbleness he requested him "Respected Haralaiah even a grass given with devotion is equivalent to mountain ! then is it possible to reject these lovely shoes ? Allright! what skin is used to make these shoes ? Basavanna asked by observing them closely.

 

" O Mahatma please don't reject them by hearing the truth. These shoes have been made up of skin taken from my wife's left thigh and my right thigh...'' Basavanna was terribly shaken and became unmoved by listening to these. "O my God what a terrible sacrifice ! Why did you resort to such an act ?" Though he became silent, he was immensed in emotions and he placed the shoes over his head.

 

"Sir, this earth does not stand up to the value of these shoes. The value of these can't be fixed even if the whole earth is weighed against these" uttered Basavanna"

 

" Haralaiah, these are the symbols of your dedication, sacrifice and great understanding and home the parts of the pure souls like yours".

 

"No one, not even me, should dare to wear this set; the shoes special should remain as the immortal symbol of sacrifice...." Basavanna returned the shoes by uttering these sentences and consoled Haralaiah and bid him farewell after dining with him.

 

 

Here two devotees made a shoe from the skin of their own thigh for their revered considered divine religious leader.

[Polednice]

If these legends are literally true then I don't find any insanity in it, it makes perfect sense.

 

Right, but they're not true, so...

[immortal]

I'm with Appolinaria here.

 

If you have enough emotional detachment that you can murder your own child on the say so of a man claiming to be the Almighty, please do the rest of society a favor and proceed directly to your nearest mental health facility for a mandatory 72 hour hold and eval.

 

 

That's not insanity, that's stoic principles, learning to be calm in all situations. If God literally exists then we are not here to make attachments, we're here to do his works.

 

 

THAT TO STUDY PHILOSOPHY IS TO LEARN TO DIE.

 

- Michel de Montaigne

 

CICERO says "that to study philosophy is nothing but to prepare one's self to die."

 

But for people who have utter, unbending faith in the Abrahamic god, how can they not question something that appears to them saying It is their God and It wants them to kill their child? Couldn't this be Satan in disguise? In fact, isn't it more likely Satan in disguise since killing children isn't supposed to be a virtuous act these days? Wouldn't it still be insane to believe God wants YOU to kill your child, instead of taking that child in all the myriad ways It could on It's own?

 

Moses really tried hard to know the nature or form of the Abrahamic God and failed miserably. That's one problem with the Abrahamic God we don't have a clear picture of his form and hence we can not say whether it was truly from God or from the Satan. If there are men who can clearly differentiate God from Satan and know it came from God then I don't find it to be an insane act.

[Greg H.]

That's not insanity, that's stoic principles, learning to be calm in all situations. If God literally exists then we are not here to make attachments, we're here to do his works.

 

It's that last part that I have issues with. Just because God exists, why does it necessarily follow that we must do as he commands? Because he says so? What if he's a liar and a cheat? Are we still obligated to do what he says?

 

THAT TO STUDY PHILOSOPHY IS TO LEARN TO DIE.

 

- Michel de Montaigne

 

CICERO says "that to study philosophy is nothing but to prepare one's self to die."

 

 

I prefer Dylan Thomas:

Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

[immortal]

It's that last part that I have issues with. Just because God exists, why does it necessarily follow that we must do as he commands? Because he says so? What if he's a liar and a cheat? Are we still obligated to do what he says?

 

Its proof of providence (that the world is in the protective care of God). Kant is almost certain that it is impossible to know the noumenon i.e all knowledge has to come from the sense organs. Religion, especially the revealed truths of religion disagree with Kant and says there is an another way to percieve the world or to know the world.

 

In such a case if god really exists then he is in command of every aspect of our reality, that includes your free will and just about everything. You don't have a choice. God is the one who brings drought and he is the one who floods, he is the one who controls all the opposites in this world, good and evil etc.

 

In such a case god can see all the events in the past, present and the future at any place and at any point of time, so he is asking me to do something which I am going to do it anyway. People have no problem to believe if some crazy scientist develops precogs but if religious scholars assert that precognition is from divine then its ridiculous. I don't find the concept of God to be ridiculous. Its all providence. That's how it justifies my act.

[Greg H.]

Its proof of providence (that the world is in the protective care of God).

 

So the assumption is that if God exists, he's benign and has the world's best interests at heart? That's a fairly large leap, if you ask me.

 

 

[Polednice]

Its proof of providence (that the world is in the protective care of God). Kant is almost certain that it is impossible to know the noumenon i.e all knowledge has to come from the sense organs. Religion, especially the revealed truths of religion disagree with Kant and says there is an another way to percieve the world or to know the world.

 

In such a case if god really exists then he is in command of every aspect of our reality, that includes your free will and just about everything. You don't have a choice. God is the one who brings drought and he is the one who floods, he is the one who controls all the opposites in this world, good and evil etc.

 

In such a case god can see all the events in the past, present and the future at any place and at any point of time, so he is asking me to do something which I am going to do it anyway. People have no problem to believe if some crazy scientist develops precogs but if religious scholars assert that precognition is from divine then its ridiculous. I don't find the concept of God to be ridiculous. Its all providence. That's how it justifies my act.

 

As Boethius would tell you, the existence of an all-knowing deity doesn't mean that we don't have free will. As he described it, god would be like a spectator at a chariot race - seeing all, knowing all, but not deliberately influencing every action. And, of course, today's religions are all founded on us having free will. Thus the question still stands: even if we can know a god exists, why listen to his demands except out of fear?

[iNow]

But what if it really is God? There are people that sincerely believe that God literally spoke to Abraham and had him kill his son (though he stopped him).

I find Greg's argument above to be incredibly useful in response to this.

 

Even if there is a god telling you to do this, and god actually exists, why do you have to listen? How is existence at all relevant? Just because there may be a god doesn't dictate that you must do what it tells you.

 

The question is if you're mentally ill. I suspect that if you hear god and god actually exists, then you're not mentally ill. If you choose to kill your child as a result of those voices (and, in the absence of solid unquestionable evidence that god truly is the one telling you something), then THAT makes you mentally ill (farther along the spectrum, anyway).

Edited June 5, 2012 by iNow

[doG]

But what if it really is God?

Then he/she/it needs to show up to testify at your trial. Trials are about evidence and there's zero evidence that any god exists so it should not be an acceptable motive in a court of law.

[ydoaPs]

The question is if you're mentally ill. I suspect that if you hear god and god actually exists, then you're not mentally ill.

 

How can we tell the difference?

[iNow]

The question is if you're mentally ill. I suspect that if you hear god and god actually exists, then you're not mentally ill.

How can we tell the difference?

 

We can't. All voices we hear, whether real or imagined, are processed and interpreted using the same neural infrastructure. That is why validation and confirmation through adequate empirical evidence prior to accepting something as true is so critical. Without that validation step, all random thoughts and brain smatterings are functionally indistinguishable regardless of how they each independently map on to reality after that checking step is performed.

Edited June 5, 2012 by iNow

[immortal]

So the assumption is that if God exists, he's benign and has the world's best interests at heart? That's a fairly large leap, if you ask me.

 

Its not an assumption, it will be a self evident fact that he has made all of us in his own image that each one of us has the potential in us to create a whole new universe. Without a Self(soul) revelation of God is not possible. Its wise to abide in the truth and not turn away from it. This world belongs to God, the child belongs to God, he is the one who gives it and he is the one who takes it back because it always belonged to him. So we are not here to live our life the way we want based on our personal desires, we are here for the greater good of this world not for your own personal attachments and desires.

[zorro]

One sometimes hears of murder cases where the defendant thought they were battling demons or that God told them to do it. They are immediately labelled by the religious as insane. How can we make that judgement, though? If they are part of a religious tradition that teaches that demons are real (and can possess people) and that God literally tells people to kill others, how can we tell fervent belief from mental illness?

 

Are religious people only sane if they don't really believe what their story books say? Are literalists sane? Where and how do we draw the line?

 

If you hear a voice in your head claiming to be God and it tells you to kill your child (just like in the Bible), is it insane to listen?

 

Of coarse you void this temptation because it is Satan speaking.

...There are no more religious wakos than geniuses, they all have brains that sometime escapes to infinity. Which on the whole is good.

zorro .....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[iNow]

Please stop smoking pot and posting while under its influence. What you think sounds profound and mind blowing we think sounds incoherent and mostly asinine.

Edited October 17, 2012 by iNow

[Moontanman]

Of coarse you void this temptation because it is Satan speaking.

 

And you know that how?

 

 

...There are no more religious wakos than geniuses, they all have brains that sometime escapes to infinity. Which on the whole is good.zorro .....

 

 

Elaborate on this please, it sounds nonsensical...