Why does holding a pistol sideways like in the movies not really work?

[Fanghur]

Does anyone know why the traditional 'gangsta' shooting position, namely holding your pistol sideways, would make aiming the weapon more difficult? I just watched an episode of MythBusters where they were testing various shooting stances, and they found that holding the gun sideways actually rivaled shooting from the hip in its difficulty shoot accurately. This makes absolutely no sense to me, because the way I see it, whether the gun is upright or sideways, you can still use the sights just as well. Is there some kind of engineering reason behind this?

[InigoMontoya]

Is there some kind of engineering reason behind this?

Yes.

 

In a nutshell: The sites are designed to operate with gravity (which affects bullets too!) aligned with the sites. Holding the gun sideways means that gravity is 90 degrees offset from the direction the sites assume. Voila, the sites aren't adjusted worth a damn.

[Fanghur]

Well then why can't you just use the side of the gun barrel to align with your target?

[doG]

Well then why can't you just use the side of the gun barrel to align with your target?

Why have sights at all then? With the gun upright you could just use the top of the barrel. Just pretend there's no such.thing as gravity.

[InigoMontoya]

Well then why can't you just use the side of the gun barrel to align with your target?

You could. That would be better than nothing.... But only barely.

 

Suffice to say that holding a gun sideways is a billboard that says, "I'm an idiot!" to anyone who has even a small amount of weapons training.

[Fanghur]

OK, guys, pretty much the only thing you've said to me is that it is a bad idea, but I still don't understand why? The bullet comes out of the end of the gun. Why in the world should it make a wits bit of difference to the bullet's trajectory how the gun barrel is oriented?

[Externet]

Read Iñigo's answer #2 a couple of times. It is very clear.

[Spyman]

Bullet drop

 

The effect of gravity on a projectile in flight is often referred to as bullet drop. It is important to understand the effect of gravity when zeroing the sighting components of a gun. To plan for bullet drop and compensate properly, one must understand parabolic shaped trajectories.

 

 

Typical trajectory graph for a M4 carbine and M16A2 rifle using identical M855 cartridges with identical projectiles. Though both trajectories have an identical 25 m near zero, the difference in muzzle velocity of the projectiles gradually causes a significant difference in trajectory and far zero. The 0 inch axis represents the line of sight or horizontal sighting plane.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_ballistics#Bullet_drop

[Phi for All]

Yes.

 

In a nutshell: The sites are designed to operate with gravity (which affects bullets too!) aligned with the sites. Holding the gun sideways means that gravity is 90 degrees offset from the direction the sites assume. Voila, the sites aren't adjusted worth a damn.

With a sideways grip, aren't you also defeating the strength of your muscles against the recoil? The straight-up grip is much stronger and more designed with the way the hand and arm muscles work, it seems to me.

 

Also, with a semi-automatic, aren't you running the risk of hot casings coming back at your face instead of off to your right and behind?

[Greg H.]

With a sideways grip, aren't you also defeating the strength of your muscles against the recoil? The straight-up grip is much stronger and more designed with the way the hand and arm muscles work, it seems to me.

 

Also, with a semi-automatic, aren't you running the risk of hot casings coming back at your face instead of off to your right and behind?

 

Having been trained to shoot by the military, I can't say I have ever fired a gun sideways (drill instructors get really aggravated when you mishandle a weapon), but I suspect you're probably correct on both counts.

[swansont]

OK, guys, pretty much the only thing you've said to me is that it is a bad idea, but I still don't understand why? The bullet comes out of the end of the gun. Why in the world should it make a wits bit of difference to the bullet's trajectory how the gun barrel is oriented?

 

It doesn't make a difference to the trajectory, per se, it's that you aren't aiming — which is why it's no better than shooting from the hip. The sights assume a vertical orientation, and are nominally calibrated for a certain distance.

[Janus]

With a sideways grip, aren't you also defeating the strength of your muscles against the recoil? The straight-up grip is much stronger and more designed with the way the hand and arm muscles work, it seems to me.

 

 

 

Another thought is that is that when you hold the gun upright, the effect of recoil on the gun would cause a torque that tends to lift the barrel. This is then offset by the drop of the bullet. The two effects tend to compensate each other.

 

When you hold the gun sideways, this same torque kicks the barrel to the side, shifting the trajectory of the bullet in that direction. Add that to the weaker grip and you'll tend to shoot wide.

[Joatmon]

Just a small detail but you also have to allow for the wind pushing the bullet sideways. A thin vertical blade for the foresight gives you something to aid judgement.

edit: although this is true, at the range you would use a pistol and the expected size of your target its not usually a consideration - I was thinking of a rifle!

Edited June 4, 2012 by Joatmon

[John Cuthber]

The numbers on that graph indicate that the effect of bullet drop is of the order of a few inches up to 50 metres or so.

That's probably still close enough to kill you at a range where they can be sure to recognise you.*

It's probably not wise to tell someone who is pointing a gun at you that they are doing it wrongly.

The worst thing that would happen would be that they took your advice.

 

*OK, they might not care who you are.

[ewmon]

 

The line of sight and the centerline of the bore are not parallel, but the muzzle is tilted slightly upward to compensate for gravity. Turning the gun 90° onto its side does two things: it causes the bullet to begin dropping away from the line of sight immediately, and it causes the bullet to veer to the side.

 

With practice, a shooter can compensate for this different kind of orientation. I saw a video years ago of an FBI agent who could shoot his pistol at all orientations (and hit the target): standard, on its left side, one its right side and even upside down. Of all places I could have seen this, it was a short clip on one of the original Mousketeers shows!

 

As for shooting from the hip, it takes a little practice to, say, kick a can around at 25 feet. If you're indoors, you would probably hit an intruder from the hip without any practice, seeing as how people are so big and indoor distances don't go much beyond 15 feet or so. That's why, in clearing a house, it's preferred to hold the gun close to your body, instead of with arms fully extended (as we often see in movies). You don't want the gun to "announce" you entering a room, and you don't want the intruder the opportunity to take the gun, or disable it, or injure your arms. You want it just enough in front of you to shoot to either side (or to turn around quickly) as shown below.

 

Edited June 4, 2012 by ewmon

[InigoMontoya]

With a sideways grip, aren't you also defeating the strength of your muscles against the recoil? The straight-up grip is much stronger and more designed with the way the hand and arm muscles work, it seems to me.

Quite possible. I'm not an ergonomics person so I didn't address any such issues. I simply addressed the straight forward discussion of sight design and adjustment (or lack thereof).

 

Also, with a semi-automatic, aren't you running the risk of hot casings coming back at your face instead of off to your right and behind?

Depends heavily on the gun.

 

I've seen guns that actually eject the brass *forward*. I've seen others that ejected the cases with seemingly zero velocity (cases seemed to just drop from gun rather than getting thrown). I've seen guns that eject straight back and over the head of the shooter (heck, I own one!). Still others have ejection ports on the bottom of the gun. In other words... It depends on the gun.

Edited June 5, 2012 by InigoMontoya