GM crops

[Arete]

I am further questioning whether the motives for these later developments are as purely virtuous as the original ones.

 

I don't think anyone is denying that one of the reasons behind transgene containment is to protect profits and to make sure that if you want transgenic crops, you need to pay the company which developed them. I'm not really seeing the obfuscation you seem to be referring to in previous posts, and I guess I'm a little mystified as to the aggression/frustration that's coming across in your posts.

 

There is also a suite of ecological, environmental and economical concerns associated with transgene escape which have all been brought up in this thread already. Transgenes getting into non-target species is universally considered a bad thing.

http://www.edinforma...enic_plants.htm

 

One of the greatest fears associated with transgenic plants is what could happen to nearby ecosystems if the transgene escapes from the fields into the wild. If transgenic plants mate with similar wild plants, the transgene could be incorporated into the offspring. It is possible that these new plants with the transgene could become weedy or invasive, which could reduce biodiversity and might destroy entire ecosystems.

 

Scientists are also working on transgene escape mitigation which does not result in sterile seeds:

 

http://www.lifescien...ne_escape_rnai/

At CSIRO Plant Industry's Merbein research laboratories in north-western Victoria, Professor Steve Swain, Dr Davinder Singh and Dr Angelica Jermakow have devised an ingenious, broadly applicable strategy to prevent transgene escape from GM crops.

 

It exploits a combination of post-transcriptional gene silencing - RNA interference - and "gene imprinting": natural, methylation-induced suppression of particular genes, according to whether they are inherited from the female or male parent.

 

The CSIRO researchers have demonstrated their system in an Arabidopsis model. A basic difference from the Technology Protection System developed in the US in the late 1990s is that the transgenic plants still produce viable seed - provided similarly-engineered cultivars cross-pollinate with each other.

 

[Moontanman]

 

Earlier in this thread it was stated (not by me) that the progenitor of modern potato crops were poisonous.

It was also stated (again not by me) that this poisonous characteristic was removed or reduced to tolerable levels by selective breeding by native americans up to a thousand years ago.

 

It was 7,000 to 10,000 years ago but your following points remain...

 

So, quite naturally, I questioned whether they also wanted their improved potato to be unable to be planted to yield a crop on a year by year or generation by generation basis.

 

I think those early practitioners of GM did not want to prevent a % of each year's harvest being saved as 'seed' to plant for the next year - in fac that is what the wanted and they wanted the subsequent harvest to grow at least as well as the previous.

 

I think you are correct here

 

So I am making the point that the idea of actively preventing this by further and more sophisticated exploitation of GM techniques, not originally employed. I don't see how you can breed infertility into a strain by selection.

 

Actually you can, Bananas are a case in point... But in Potatoes like Bananas any sterility was accidental not planned... This occurs due to hybridization which applies to potatoes in this context...

 

I am further questioning whether the motives for these later developments are as purely virtuous as the original ones.

 

I think you have a very good point here...

 

As such I do not appreciate being mocked for my views.

 

I see no reason to mock you...

[studiot]

Moontanman

I see no reason to mock you...

 

Thank you, I was not referring to our earlier discussion in this thread.

I can only use the knowledge and reasoning powers I possess to evaluate propositions that are put.

When someone else with greater knowledge or insight comes along I am grateful and accept their statement, as I did earlier with yours.

 

My style may be somewhat flambouyant, but it is not ludicrous.

 

At least on your side of the pond you don't have a bunch of beaurocrats on grater than 100K per year (of your money) trying to tell you that bananas must be straight to be sold.

Yes it truly was an EU regulation for a while.

 

or that apples must be greater than a certain diameter to be graded as first class.

 

I live in an apple growing area and am sick of the mushy, tasteless excuses for apples that are offered as a result of modern 'improvements' in varieties.

 

go well

[Arete]

I live in an apple growing area and am sick of the mushy, tasteless excuses for apples that are offered as a result of modern 'improvements' in varieties.

 

Again I'm slightly confused - GM apples are not being sold anywhere in the world, as for two days ago, the non-browning GM apple was still not approved by the USDA

 

http://www.agprofessional.com/newsletters/agpro-weekly/articles/USDA-seeks-comment-on-non-browning-GM-apple-162352406.html?ref=406

http://www.gmo-compass.org/eng/grocery_shopping/fruit_vegetables/6.genetically_modified_apples_eu.html

 

Are you sure the fruit quality decline you're observing is not due to late harvesting and long periods of cold storage? These practices do reduce fruit quality and have nothing to do with selective breeding or GMOs.

 

http://sodininkyste-darzininkyste.lsdi.lt/straipsniai/27-2/27%282%29-34.pdf

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/supermarket-apples-10-months-old/2008/01/19/1200620272669.html

[John Cuthber]

 

At least on your side of the pond you don't have a bunch of beaurocrats on grater than 100K per year (of your money) trying to tell you that bananas must be straight to be sold.

Yes it truly was an EU regulation for a while.

 

I live in an apple growing area and am sick of the mushy, tasteless excuses for apples that are offered as a result of modern 'improvements' in varieties.

 

go well

While the EU has had plenty of stupid rules, that particular one was a myth.

My personal favourite is part of the REACH regs which bans the use of highly flammable and extremely flammable propellants for novelty products such as silly string, whoopee cushions and fake excrement.

The punchline is the exemption (from these regs) for those materials marked as being "for professional use".

 

I wonder if the cause of your disgruntlement at apples is that far too many of them are "golden delicious".

I can only presume that, in French, the words respectively mean "snot coloured" and "bland".

[studiot]

I wonder if the cause of your disgruntlement at apples is that far too many of them are "golden delicious".

I can only presume that, in French, the words respectively mean "snot coloured" and "bland".

 

In their proper season golden delicious are not too bad.

Braeburn on the other hand.

 

Are you sure the fruit quality decline you're observing is not due to late harvesting and long periods of cold storage?

 

Absolutely 100% certain.

 

I can pick decent apples, that have never been near a cold stroage facility off a tree!

If anything most crops in supermarkets are harvested far too early!

Edited July 18, 2012 by studiot

[John Cuthber]

Come to think of it, can you "late harvest" apples?

I thought they fell off the tree.

[Arete]

Come to think of it, can you "late harvest" apples?

I thought they fell off the tree.

 

The paper cited simply shows that apples picked later in the harvesting season tend to have higher water content, be softer and spoil sooner - so assumedly aren't as nice as one picked sooner in the growing season, and even worse after long periods in cold storage.

http://sodininkyste-darzininkyste.lsdi.lt/straipsniai/27-2/27%282%29-34.pdf

[JMJones0424]

Come to think of it, can you "late harvest" apples?

I thought they fell off the tree.

 

Apples ripen over a period of time. Late harvest is the end of this period, before they fall off the tree.

The generally accepted commercial practice is to pick fruit before the onset of the respiratory climacteric. Unless your market is near your orchard and can absorb all of your fresh product, you will want to harvest your apples before they begin to ripen. It is important to know the appropriate harvest dates for your apple varieties. Apples picked too early are susceptible to shrivel, scald, and bitter pit. They also may not ripen appropriately after harvest. Apples picked too late may begin the respiratory rise, which will decrease their shelf life and lead to disorders such as flesh browning and breakdown.

http://www.extension...ure/DG6238.html

[studiot]

JMJones

Apples ripen over a period of time

 

Is there a crop that doesn't?

 

Perhaps you can enlighten us by naming one that ripens instantaneously.

Edited July 18, 2012 by studiot

[Moontanman]

In their proper season golden delicious are not too bad.

Braeburn on the other hand.

 

 

 

Absolutely 100% certain.

 

I can pick decent apples, that have never been near a cold stroage facility off a tree!

If anything most crops in supermarkets are harvested far too early!

 

 

I buy most of my fruit locally, that of course limits the type of fruit i can get but luckily in my area we have apples and peaches that are great, lots of pecan trees. You do have a good point about fruit and often vegetables, for shipping to the large scale commercial market they are often picked green and do not ripen as well as those left on the trees.

 

There is also the problem of many new varieties being selectively bred to ship well at the expense of flavor as well. When i garden i go out of my way to obtain the seeds of the older varieties, called heirloom seeds, they make tomatoes that are exquisite compared to commercial varieties, corn is also good in heirloom varieties as well as many other vegetables, fruits are another matter, it's difficult to get heirloom fruit due to most trees provided now days are newer type and bred to be something other than tasty... I do get heirloom variety peaches where I live... hmmmm gooood...

 

I am lucky enough to live near a large family farm that has been running for several generations, they grow lots of old style stuff, and cater to locals instead of shipping off to distant markets... oh yeah, we have pears too...

[JMJones0424]

Is there a crop that doesn't?

 

Perhaps you can enlighten us by naming one that ripens instantaneously.

 

No, can't think of one off the top of my head, but quote mining the first sentence without the following sentence does make it seem rather silly.

[Ringer]

Is there a crop that doesn't?

 

Any crop that's not a fruit.

[too-open-minded]

I buy most of my fruit locally, that of course limits the type of fruit i can get but luckily in my area we have apples and peaches that are great, lots of pecan trees. You do have a good point about fruit and often vegetables, for shipping to the large scale commercial market they are often picked green and do not ripen as well as those left on the trees.

 

There is also the problem of many new varieties being selectively bred to ship well at the expense of flavor as well. When i garden i go out of my way to obtain the seeds of the older varieties, called heirloom seeds, they make tomatoes that are exquisite compared to commercial varieties, corn is also good in heirloom varieties as well as many other vegetables, fruits are another matter, it's difficult to get heirloom fruit due to most trees provided now days are newer type and bred to be something other than tasty... I do get heirloom variety peaches where I live... hmmmm gooood...

 

I am lucky enough to live near a large family farm that has been running for several generations, they grow lots of old style stuff, and cater to locals instead of shipping off to distant markets... oh yeah, we have pears too...

 

 

Brag about your pears will you? I'll have you know theirs a pear tree on some acreage my family owns that yields soft pears when ripe. Aha!

 

 

[studiot]

GM potatoes news

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19000190

[vampares]

Plants have a relatively large amount of extra DNA. There metabolism, a CO2 consumer, is radically different from that of humans or other animals. This being the case, plant DNA is more subject to changes.

 

I think it is inappropriate to take advantage of this quality in plants. Plants species are at least somewhat stabilized in their proper DNA. When something screws this up, it makes for general chaos and disorder.

 

If a farmer is not a good farmer, then it is his own fault.

 

I also think my grandfathers Pug dog smells and is inappropriate. If Monstanto is looking for some DNA that needs tweeking, start with that.

[immortal]

The point is evolution by Natural selection is blind, it has no purpose and a species lost is lost forever and how do we know whether Natural selection along with our actions is taking us to the extinction of life on this planet earth or the thriving of life on this planet? Preserving Biodiversity is more important than fulfilling the hunger of 7 billion people in this world.

[vampares]

The industrial revolution feeds people. DNA modification on the scientific basis of mapping the genome is in line with the industrial revolution. Mutating plants may have a few niches in which a real production is seen. It's not to likely you would find DNA in one species that was better at producing an enzyme, et al, than the species from which that enzyme came from in the first place. And when this organism is modified, it now occupies a place in our ecosystem that is not existent. If all corn is GMO'd, then it is as if there is no corn at all in a sense.

 

Another thing. It worries me that they have developed, thus far, only a handful of quasi-useful GMO traits. I build my own Linux operating systems from source code. This is like have a C:\ prompt and writing some PacMan knockoff. This is how bored farmer must be to find BT corn commercially attractive.

 

How about corn that grows an ear in three days? Or green beans that taste like chocolate? Or red, white and blue apples?

[dmaiski]

all possible, but the 3 day corn would deplete land of resources faster then you can snap your fingers, and blue apples are tricky if you want them to be edible

 

chocolate flavoured beans, you could make that in about 1-2 weeks of work in a lab if you had all the materials for generating vectors, a internet connection, and were lucky that it worked like you thought it would on the first try.

 

 

[vampares]

Huh. I guess the apple could be a chimera or a mosaic.

 

250lbs an acre of ammonia nitrate does not last long.

 

(I'm thinking about putting another o in oolong tea)

 

If corn DID grow in three days, the loss of fertilizers would be greatly reduced because it would all go into one location. This would give the opportunity to cultivate some natural variety so that half the continent wasn't bare open dirt twice a year from top to bottom.

 

Transport cost would be reduced. There would be fewer runs on futures in the commodities. It would make the corn more valuable on the market because it would be so reliable. Right now we don't know what will happen, so the fuel market doesn't take it seriously.

Edited September 17, 2012 by vampares

[dmaiski]

you are forgetting that to grow corn plants need to photosynthesise, to make sugars

so practically speaking you would need to rehash the idea of corn stalks

 

i would go for a "corn tree" so the corn would grow on the bottom branches and the photosynthesis would happen up top,

then you would give it ethanol resistance, and grow it like rice, partialy submerged in a fertilizer broth

 

 

[vampares]

i would go for a "corn tree" so the corn would grow on the bottom branches and the photosynthesis would happen up top,

I didn't want to loose the stalk but I hadn't thought about the placement.

and grow it like rice, partialy submerged in a fertilizer broth

Obviously corn is not autonomous.

[dmaiski]

Obviously corn is not autonomous.

 

more GM is needed then

 

corn needs more nutrients, birds eat corn

i have a solution bird eating corn

we cross the corn tree with something like the Venus fly trap, or some kind of vine that snares creatures that get near and digests them, a ready source of nitrates is available in plentiful supply

 

this is the moment where you say "what has science done", or "son, go get the pitchforks and torches"

 

 

 

 

back to a topic of discussion that an ethics board will approve of

[Moontanman]

You could give corn the same ability that legumes have so corn could make it's own fertilizer... making it a perennial might be good too, harvest it in the fall cut it down and the next spring it comes back from it's own roots... kind of like asparagus... no seeds needed...

[vampares]

I heard the sugar cane in Brazil has nitrogen fixing capability.

 

But it's not GMO.