Thou shalt no kill

[doG]

Just wondering.....

 

David Berkowitz gave an odd reason for killing, he claimed that to keep the demons quiet, he started doing what they wanted.

 

Gary Ridgway, whose IQ was 80, which signified a slight mental deficiency, plead guilty to 48 charges in 2003, but claimed to have killed 71 women.

 

Charles Manson was religious and used this to manipulate people into forming the Manson family. His family calling him “Jesus Christ” and did everything he wanted, including murder.

 

Albert Fish may have been America’s most vile pedophile, serial killer, and cannibal. He believed God ordered him to castrate young boys. This was diagnosed as religious psychosis and is what led to the several mutilations and murders he committed.

 

Coral Eugene Watts drowned women in a bathtub in order to prevent their spirits from escaping. He committed between 80-100 murders. When a detective said that he did not have enough fingers and toes to count all the murders he committed, Watts replied that there were not enough fingers and toes in the room. (There were four men in the room.)

 

These men did what God wanted them to do. Does that mean they get to go to heaven? Just whose fault is it that they were crazy anyhow, theirs or God's?

[dimreepr]

An interesting question, but it seems to me to have nothing to do with God. Isn’t these just cases of psychosis pinning an apparent cause “God” to actions they can’t otherwise explain?

 

 

[Greg H.]

Humans are very good at coming up with new and interesting ways to kill each other, and new and strange reasons to excuse it. "God told me to do it" is neither new nor strange as far as reasons go - it's been around since at least the dawn of recorded history. The only thing that's changed is which god is doing the talking.

[ewmon]

1. These men did what God wanted them to do.
   
2. Does that mean they get to go to heaven?
   
3. Just whose fault is it that they were crazy anyhow, theirs or God's?
   

1. As you quoted it, God laid down the law: Thou shalt not kill. Therefore, these men did not do God's will.
   
2. If they don't/didn't accept Christ as their lord & savior and repent, they cannot go to heaven.
   
3. The standard Christian perspective is that we live in a "fallen" (that is, imperfect) world, which is also true according to just about everyone's standards. Some of us suffer from bodily imperfections; some suffer from mental imperfections. The ultimate reason for these crazy people is that they are the product of an imperfect world, whether their insanity was of genetic origins, or a natural cause (such as a high fever), or a human cause (such as being horribly abused themselves), or an immoral upbringing, etc).

[doG]

If they don't/didn't accept Christ as their lord & savior and repent, they cannot go to heaven.

So humans too incompetent to understand what a lord and savior is, much less to accept Christ as their own, are not welcome in heaven? That really sucks for all the mentally incompetent, huh? That's OK, I haven't accepted him either so maybe they'll get to see me in hell. It looks like another good reason not to worship the petty god thing!

Edited June 11, 2012 by doG

[ewmon]

So humans too incompetent to understand what a lord and savior is, much less to accept Christ as their own, are not welcome in heaven? That really sucks for all the mentally incompetent, huh? That's OK, I haven't accepted him either so maybe they'll get to see me in hell. It looks like another good reason not to worship the petty god thing!

As I said, it's a broken world, which I don't think anyone denies. It's important to understand that the criteria I described is for competent adults. The Bible does not mention anything about what happens to babies, children or mentally incompetent adults, so it doesn't "suck" for them. I can say that you drew a conclusion as to their destination that is not biblical. In fact, Christ says that we must especially help those who are in need, and he even equates them to himself. The important thing is not to draw conclusions about Christianity that are not biblical. And finally, it seems obvious that the ultimate purpose of following any religion or philosophy is not rewards or punishments, but how we live our lives, because it's the only thing that we can control.

[mississippichem]

ewmon,

 

What about the numerous biblical instances of Yahweh directly ordering the killing of entire nations or ethnic groups? Certainly the people executing those acts were following "God's will"?

[ewmon]

What about the numerous biblical instances of Yahweh directly ordering the killing of entire nations or ethnic groups? Certainly the people executing those acts were following "God's will"?

If one is to believe these few biblical accounts, the Old Testament does not give much detail, except usually to say that these nations were very evil and beyond help. In at least one instance, the Israelites were to destroy everyone/everything, including the children, animals and wealth — there should not be any plundering. The commandment about "not killing" is understood to be about an individual committing murder and not about national defense. America attacked Japan after Pearl Harbor, and that would be a poor argument about not killing.

Edited June 11, 2012 by ewmon

[John Cuthber]

"The commandment about "not killing" is understood to be about an individual committing murder and not about national defense. "

Other interpretations are available.

[A Tripolation]

If one is to believe these few biblical accounts, the Old Testament does not give much detail, except usually to say that these nations were very evil and beyond help. In at least one instance, the Israelites were to destroy everyone/everything, including the children, animals and wealth — there should not be any plundering. The commandment about "not killing" is understood to be about an individual committing murder and not about national defense. America attacked Japan after Pearl Harbor, and that would be a poor argument about not killing.

 

At least one instance? Try all the damn time. The Jericho Massacre is a particularly appalling example.

 

And, please, enlighten me. Tell me how an infant can be "very evil and beyond help." I'd really like to know.

[ewmon]

1. At least one instance? Try all the damn time. The Jericho Massacre is a particularly appalling example.
   
2. And, please, enlighten me. Tell me how an infant can be "very evil and beyond help." I'd really like to know.
   

1. No, I can't agree with "all the damn time". I think it would be up to you to prove your statement. And as for Jericho, not everyone was killed. The people of Jericho knew that Israel (with God) would defeat them, but they chose to resist instead of surrendering. It's in the Book of Joshua.
   
2. As for babies in general, have you noticed how selfish they are? About 100%, if not more (). Nature has made them look cute, otherwise we wouldn't love them so much, and they'd never thrive. I don't know if it makes them "very evil", but I'd say at least "evil". Now, before you say that babies can't help it, I'll simply agree with you and admit that it's their nature. Pretty much throughout their entire upbringing (and sometimes beyond), children need to be taught/reminded not to be selfish. As for "beyond help", I don't know because I wasn't there at the time.

Here's an example in modern history. Now, I know it's not exactly the same as these OT accounts, but it's somewhat similar. America dropped the "bomb" on Japan in WW2: Should we have done it or not? A lot of people back then, as well as today, say it was the better choice. Here we were, at war with a nation fanatically devoted to its Emperor, whom it worshiped as a god. The Japanese people did all sorts of crazy things because the Emperor (or his government) told them to ... kamikaze pilots, parents who killed their babies and then themselves, Japanese soldiers who held out for years, and some for decades! The American military estimated that an invasion would have killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians.

[Joatmon]

Here is something that puzzles me about the innocence of very young people. If someone had killed an evil person such as Adolf Hitler when he/she was a child would he/she have gone to heaven? I assume that if they have some sort of existence now it's in Hell. I know it's ridiculous but you could make a logical argument that says if you really want your infants to go to heaven then you should kill them before they have a chance to "sin"!

[Arete]

If someone had killed an evil person such as Adolf Hitler when he/she was a child would he/she have gone to heaven? I assume that if they have some sort of existence now it's in Hell.

 

[inert Godwin's law comment here]

 

It seems Hitler at least professed a belief in the Christian God - and one would assume if he was genuine about it he met the New testament entry requirements of having accepted Jesus and asked for forgiveness.

 

"We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian." -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928

 

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter." Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

"It matters not whether these weapons of ours are humane: if they gain us our freedom, they are justified before our conscience and before our God." -Adolf Hitler, in Munich, 01 Aug. 1923

 

he certainly didn't seem to like atheists:

 

"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out." -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

 

edit to add source: http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

Edited June 12, 2012 by Arete

[Joatmon]

[inert Godwin's law comment here]

 

It seems Hitler at least professed a belief in the Christian God - and one would assume if he was genuine about it he met the New testament entry requirements of having accepted Jesus and asked for forgiveness.

 

"We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian." -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928

 

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter." Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

"It matters not whether these weapons of ours are humane: if they gain us our freedom, they are justified before our conscience and before our God." -Adolf Hitler, in Munich, 01 Aug. 1923

 

he certainly didn't seem to like atheists:

 

"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out." -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

 

edit to add source: http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

Even if we assume that Hitler, by God's rules and grace, now happily resides in Heaven, he was given just as an example of an evil person. Just delete his name from my post and consider its application to any truly evil person.

You do raise other questions though. Can any person be so evil that God would not accept him/her even under the conditions you state? What happens to people who do evil deeds when mad and in their madness cannot profess faith and ask for forgiveness?

 

 

[John Cuthber]

 

[*]As for babies in general, have you noticed how selfish they are? About 100%, if not more (). Nature has made them look cute, otherwise we wouldn't love them so much, and they'd never thrive. I don't know if it makes them "very evil", but I'd say at least "evil". Now, before you say that babies can't help it, I'll simply agree with you and admit that it's their nature. Pretty much throughout their entire upbringing (and sometimes beyond), children need to be taught/reminded not to be selfish.

I wouldn't say it's in babies' nature to be selfish.

I'd ask what else it's possible for them to be?

[ewmon]

If someone had killed an evil person such as Adolf Hitler when he/she was a child would he/she have gone to heaven?

Again, the Bible is silent about children.

 

I wouldn't say it's in babies' nature to be selfish.

I'd ask what else it's possible for them to be?

But if you had to choose between nature and nurture? I had mentioned having to teach/remind them throughout childhood (and beyond) not to be selfish. The babies of some animals are quite capable from minutes or seconds after birth. Human babies are quite incapable for months. Even if measured relative to lifespan, human babies are probably selfish/incapable for much longer than other animals. It's as though humans are über-domesticated. Infants can't even hold their heads up.

[dimreepr]

 

But if you had to choose between nature and nurture? I had mentioned having to teach/remind them throughout childhood (and beyond) not to be selfish. The babies of some animals are quite capable from minutes or seconds after birth. Human babies are quite incapable for months. Even if measured relative to lifespan, human babies are probably selfish/incapable for much longer than other animals. It's as though humans are über-domesticated. Infants can't even hold their heads up.

 

 

Selfishness implies an introspective understanding of social intricacy and a willingness to demand special treatment in spite of need. Intelligence comes at a cost, that being a long and dependant infancy.

 

 

[John Cuthber]

Selfish isn't really an applicable term.

Is a beaker of water "selfish" if it dissolves a spoonful of sugar? It didn't ask the sugar if it wanted to be dissolved.

I don't think so. To me selfishness means (more or less deliberately) not considering the position or desires of others.

Since babies can't make that choice it seems to me to be the wrong word.

 

In any event, in the context of being "evil" such selfishness would have to be a deliberate choice.

Babies have no choice so their actions are not evil.

[Moontanman]

Again, the Bible is silent about children.

 

No it's not, children were in at least one instance given to the troops as sex slaves... after everyone else had been killed at the demand of god...

[ewmon]

Again, the Bible is silent about children.

No it's not, children were in at least one instance given to the troops as sex slaves... after everyone else had been killed at the demand of god...

I meant that the Bible is silent about whether infants/children who die go to heaven, hell, limbo, purgatory, etc.

I'm unaware of the Bible mentioning children as sex slaves (or, actually, any sex slaves). Can you cite the book, chapter and verse on that one?

[Moontanman]

I meant that the Bible is silent about whether infants/children who die go to heaven, hell, limbo, purgatory, etc.

I'm unaware of the Bible mentioning children as sex slaves (or, actually, any sex slaves). Can you cite the book, chapter and verse on that one?

 

 

Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

 

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

 

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

[ewmon]

But nothing about sex slaves.

 

Back in Numbers 25, an Israelite man and his Midianite wife were killed because, being a Midianite, the woman worshiped another god. Worshiping another god was perhaps THE main reason why towns or tribes were utterly destroyed.

 

We have a distorted view of captives and slaves down through history when we think only of African slaves brought to America (and even that is distorted). Ancient slavery was common for various reasons, for example, selling yourself into slavery to pay off your debts. In Numbers 22, Moab told the Midianites that the Israelites would devour them the way "the ox licks up the grass of the field", and yet the Midians chose to resist. Everyone knew the consequences of defeat: death or, hopefully, slavery.

[John Cuthber]

"But nothing about sex slaves. "

You think the idea of "Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves." was so they could be kept as nurses and cooks?

Also, re "Everyone knew the consequences of defeat: death or, hopefully, slavery. "

They may have known the consequence, but what choice did the young girls have?

[Auto Engineer]

I think the bible says "thy shalt not murder" if the bible said thy shalt not kill then nobody would be able to eat meat.

 

There seems many opinons about the interpretation of heaven as well. As I understand it heaven is a newly formed earth which has not yet been established. I am to understand that Gods war against sin called armageddon has yet to arive, but after this period of time there is a record that says seven hundred years will pass to rebuild the earth to a paradise, then three hundred years of piece and then the final test will be presented to the human race, that is Satans system of things which is exactly the world system as we all know it, and the newly ordered personality that people will have learned over a thousand year period up to this final test, without the influence of Satan in this system of things. For the people who survive they inherit everlasting life on earth, the ones that don't make it return to the dust of the ground, as God originally told Adam in the book of Genises, in the day you eat from the tree of knowledge of good and bad you will positively die, for dust you are and for dust you will return, so anyone who fails the end test will return to the dust of the ground, the same as what happens when people die at the present time, the only difference being that God has the ability to res-errect the dead to life, where the bible makes it clear that all the dead will be reserected and given the chance of life before the final judgment.

[Moontanman]

But nothing about sex slaves.

 

If it was not sexual slavery or at least included sex as a part of their bondage why was being a virgin so important? A good luck piece? What about the virgin boys? Oh yeah I forgot that would be wrong...

 

 

Back in Numbers 25, an Israelite man and his Midianite wife were killed because, being a Midianite, the woman worshiped another god. Worshiping another god was perhaps THE main reason why towns or tribes were utterly destroyed.

 

We have a distorted view of captives and slaves down through history when we think only of African slaves brought to America (and even that is distorted). Ancient slavery was common for various reasons, for example, selling yourself into slavery to pay off your debts. In Numbers 22, Moab told the Midianites that the Israelites would devour them the way "the ox licks up the grass of the field", and yet the Midians chose to resist. Everyone knew the consequences of defeat: death or, hopefully, slavery.

 

Are you seriously suggesting the virgins were lucky? lucky they weren't killed? and how the hell does all this killing make it right? thou salt not kill... why does any religion, much less Abrahamic religions take credit for this to begin with?

Edited June 14, 2012 by Moontanman