Assessing Left and Right? .

[rigney]

Have both parties finally jumped into a Bar-B-Q pit that neither can escape? And remember, these two guys are not politicians.

 

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1684723972001/trump-gets-over-maher/?playlist_id=86858&intcmp=obnetwork

Edited June 13, 2012 by rigney

[D H]

This is the exactly the kind of reporting that makes Faux so distinctive and sets it apart from the rest of those news channels.

 

Note to CNN: Stop all of that reporting about the ongoing conflicts in the Middle East. Nobody cares! In fact, stop reporting the news in general. Follow Faux News and pretend to show the news instead.

[Phi for All]

Personally, I've always felt that this "across the fence" type of distinction, left/right, conservative/liberal, Democrat/Republican, is not only a huge False Dilemma fallacy, it's also at the heart of the divisions we're feeling now. These distinctions force us to look at our differences instead of where we meet on common ground.

 

I know I've said it before, but there is commonality with almost every issue. With welfare, nobody wants people who genuinely need a helping hand to be turned out in the cold, and pulling funds from State and Federal revenues should be the most effective way to ensure that those people get the help they need without any kind of profit or selfish motives getting in the way. At the same time, nobody wants to give welfare to lazy slackers who could be working but don't. There is enough commonality there to work with if any of the politicians had the guts to explain that to his/her constituents properly and risk the "party" fallout.

 

If Big Business keeps sending jobs overseas then f*** 'em, I say let's have OUR government start making things that OUR government uses. No more buying office furniture or supplies from companies that aren't employing enough US citizens while getting rich off a US government contract. We should start making our own, in US factories sponsored by the gov, and run by US citizens. Germany does this with State-sponsored rest stops on the Autobahn. They're operated on contract by individuals and must meet certain standards, providing fuel, food and amenities for drivers, including cots for napping if you're too tired to drive.

 

I've always been a free-market guy, but we can't have a viable economy if our workers can't work. Republicans should be able to see that Reagan's Trickle-down economics fails when you kick a hole in the bucket and let the water flow out of the system. That's just not going to work for us anymore, if it ever did. Democrats should be able to see that leadership sometimes means doing what needs to be done and explaining why as you do it, instead of bowing to compromise that actually worsens the situation, or helps in one area while making another area worse. The right should be able to see that reform needs to be faster-paced in our faster-paced modern society, and the left should be able to see that sometimes reason isn't as appealing as comfort and security.

 

We need real solutions, ones that work smartly instead of catering to political categories. It's time to put our house in order and stop letting our democracy be run by the few who're rich enough to buy into it. There's no left or right when it's really all about money. We need to realize that our votes give us more power over the system than all the money does, but only if we open our mouths instead of holding out our hands.

[rigney]

Personally, I've always felt that this "across the fence" type of distinction, left/right, conservative/liberal, Democrat/Republican, is not only a huge False Dilemma fallacy, it's also at the heart of the divisions we're feeling now. These distinctions force us to look at our differences instead of where we meet on common ground.

 

I know I've said it before, but there is commonality with almost every issue. With welfare, nobody wants people who genuinely need a helping hand to be turned out in the cold, and pulling funds from State and Federal revenues should be the most effective way to ensure that those people get the help they need without any kind of profit or selfish motives getting in the way. At the same time, nobody wants to give welfare to lazy slackers who could be working but don't. There is enough commonality there to work with if any of the politicians had the guts to explain that to his/her constituents properly and risk the "party" fallout.

 

If Big Business keeps sending jobs overseas then f*** 'em, I say let's have OUR government start making things that OUR government uses. No more buying office furniture or supplies from companies that aren't employing enough US citizens while getting rich off a US government contract. We should start making our own, in US factories sponsored by the gov, and run by US citizens. Germany does this with State-sponsored rest stops on the Autobahn. They're operated on contract by individuals and must meet certain standards, providing fuel, food and amenities for drivers, including cots for napping if you're too tired to drive.

 

I've always been a free-market guy, but we can't have a viable economy if our workers can't work. Republicans should be able to see that Reagan's Trickle-down economics fails when you kick a hole in the bucket and let the water flow out of the system. That's just not going to work for us anymore, if it ever did. Democrats should be able to see that leadership sometimes means doing what needs to be done and explaining why as you do it, instead of bowing to compromise that actually worsens the situation, or helps in one area while making another area worse. The right should be able to see that reform needs to be faster-paced in our faster-paced modern society, and the left should be able to see that sometimes reason isn't as appealing as comfort and security.

 

We need real solutions, ones that work smartly instead of catering to political categories. It's time to put our house in order and stop letting our democracy be run by the few who're rich enough to buy into it. There's no left or right when it's really all about money. We need to realize that our votes give us more power over the system than all the money does, but only if we open our mouths instead of holding out our hands.

 

Stop making so damned much sense. Go write a book. Edited June 14, 2012 by rigney

[Anders Hoveland]

We should remember that there are many conservatives who do not believe Fox news is conservative enough, or even believe it is not a "real" conservative program. And similarly there are Communists who lament that no TV program gives air to their views. In many ways, the televission programs self-sensor themselves. Segments of the public are actually far more polarized than the differences seen between the conservative and liberal news programs.

[rigney]

We should remember that there are many conservatives who do not believe Fox news is conservative enough, or even believe it is not a "real" conservative program. And similarly there are Communists who lament that no TV program gives air to their views. In many ways, the televission programs self-sensor themselves. Segments of the public are actually far more polarized than the differences seen between the conservative and liberal news programs.

 

Know what you mean! O'Reilly and FOX drive me nuts, as well as Ed Schultz and MSNBC. Neither report the news to my way of thinking, just take swipes at what they call the opposition. While both are deeply motivated polically, I believew it's based more on the money they make from the crowds they bring in with their drivel. And this is the kind of bull s**t that is killing our country. Phi for all summed it up best in his posting. But how do you correct these issues he points out? You might call it a Mexican Stand Off, 'cept even the Mexicans are laughing at us. This is the most polarized I've seen our country in my eighty years. At times my conservative views overshadow any liberal thoughts I might have. But what good is a shoe or glove without the other to go with it? Even controversy can be constructive if done properly. But as of now, politically we are a disaster. Over the years the very people we have hired to protect our interest have slowly sold us out for their own gain. It has to stop! Edited June 15, 2012 by rigney

[Phi for All]

This is the most polarized I've seen our country in my eighty years. At times my conservative views overshadow any liberal thoughts I might have. But what good is a shoe or glove without the other to go with it? Even controversy can be constructive if done properly. But as of now, politically we are a disaster. Over the years the very people we have hired to protect our interest have slowly sold us out for their own gain. It has to stop!

First of all, we need to remember that when you ask the questions properly, you find we're not all that far apart in what we really want. Notice that the pundits in the media don't talk about what the issues or the solutions really mean, they just use the broad terms like "Welfare" and "Military Spending" and "Immigration" and "Abortion" and then let whatever spin they've already put out do its work. That's why these left/right political distinctions are so useful to pols and media types, because they instantly evoke certain ideologies so volumes of information are assumed with the use of a few quick sound bytes.

 

We all need to demand more clarity from both our media and our politicians. This is one of the ways the pols get us to forget every few years that they're still the ineffective system abusers they were last time we voted for them. When much of what you mean is merely implied by what you say, it's easy to convince the voters that you're speaking directly to them and represent their views.

 

Second, we need to insist that our problems be dealt with rationally instead of emotionally. If we truly trust the market economy model then we should rationally address our individual fiscal responsibility and stop racking up so much consumer debt. Forget what's "good for the economy" and start being smart about our money. That goes for tax revenue spending as well. It's insane that we spend hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars on corporate welfare to already successful businesses while we're slashing education budgets for our children and grandchildren. Worse still, corporations are paying less in taxes than ever before. After WWII, corporations used to pay half the taxes in this country, with individuals paying the other half. Now corporations kick in about a fourth of what individuals do, and those corporations are hiring more foreign workers all the time while running their trucks over roads they want us to pay for. We have to stop letting ourselves be sidetracked by emotional issues and look at the problems for what they are.

 

Third, we need to find better outlets for reaching people with the message that our differences are being exploited and magnified out of proportion. We allowed corporations to own both media AND regular businesses, and now it's difficult to get coverage that may hurt profits. Solutions are out there, but they get buried by sensationalism and fear-mongering. Remember the movie Dave, with Kevin Kline as a guy who looks just like the president and gets a chance to run the country when the real president goes into a coma? I'd like to see a major movie with a popular cast come out with all the fixes so many people have put forth, maybe about a candidate who comes out of nowhere with a common sense message and real solutions that cut through the left/right, conservative/liberal ideologies.

[John Cuthber]

It is instructive to note that the right wing has both:

An unshakable belief in an economic theory (the free market) which rests on the population being fully informed and being logical and

Fox news which resolutely ensures that they are not.

 

It's my opinion that if you need to tell lies to support you position, then your position is wrong.

[JohnB]

It is instructive to note that the right wing has both:

An unshakable belief in an economic theory (the free market) which rests on the population being fully informed and being logical and

Fox news which resolutely ensures that they are not.

 

It's my opinion that if you need to tell lies to support you position, then your position is wrong.

 

The thing is John that the Left wing has the same problem. You see it all over but most strongly in American politics where both sides believe themselves to be pure and the other side is the den of evil.

 

Down here both sides have a tendency to hand out "Jobs for the boys" the only real difference is that the conservatives make at least a bit of an effort to ensure the "boy" can actually do the "job", while the left makes no effort at all. But both sides still do it, arguing about who does it better sort of misses the point.

[John Cuthber]

Can you let me know what the Left's equivalent of Fox is please?

Also, re "Down here both sides have a tendency to hand out "Jobs for the boys" the only real difference is that the conservatives make at least a bit of an effort to ensure the "boy" can actually do the "job", "

Not reliably

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Coulson

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Hunt_(politician)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Archer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Aitken

[JohnB]

Can you let me know what the Left's equivalent of Fox is please?

 

Well, in Australia it is the Fairfax media group and the ABC. (Our version of the BBC). Neither of which have a single conservative/right leaning person on the payroll as reporter or editor.

 

Also, re "Down here both sides have a tendency to hand out "Jobs for the boys" the only real difference is that the conservatives make at least a bit of an effort to ensure the "boy" can actually do the "job", "

Not reliably

 

Down here means Australia. What english politicians do is not my problem.

 

We've put pollies from both sides in jail before now and are quite happy to do so again. Probably the next one will be Craig Tomson. While a union official it appears that some $500,000 went through his credit cards for various "services" and cash advances. The investigation, with the "help" of our left wing Prime Minister has only taken 3 years. The government is only in by 1 vote, so if Tomson is charged and found guilty he will be removed from Parliment and the left wing Labor government will fall. Gillard and cronies have been doing everything in their power to delay any sort of end to this problem. Some of the services BTW were $5,000 weekends with "Ladies of negotiable affection" paid for on the Union credit card. The Prime Minister has "full faith" in Tomson.

 

Tomsons story is that somebody broke into his home and stole his mobile phone and credit cards after he was asleep. The phone was used to book the prostitutes and the credit card was used to pay for the weekend. After having a wonderful time the thieves then broke into his house a second time to return the phone and credit cards, which is why he never reported them missing. This apparently happened 4 or 5 times.

 

I doubt that even a british pollie can match that story.

 

Anyway, the simple truth down here is that ideological purity or being a mate of the left is far more important for getting a "job" than ability is, whereas the right at least asks "What do you know about this industry?" This is why we have people who majored in "Political Science" in charge of the railway network. One would think that a knowledge of transport and trains would be more useful, but he was a staffer for a Labor Senator.....

[GammaTheGreat]

Far right conservatives (both social & fiscal conservatives) base many of their social policies on dogmatism or emotion, and far left liberals (fiscal & social liberals) base many of their fiscal policies on emotion. If you believe that one must be on a far end of the spectrum, you're ignorant and doomed.

Edited June 26, 2012 by GammaTheGreat