Free market fascism

[freemarketfascist]

Free market capitalism provides fastest economic growth possible. However free market capitalism is "unfair", leads to extreme income inequality and destroys jobs through automation. Economic cycles produce unemployment which can lead to revolution, or destruction of capital by the democratic government to create demand for excess human supply (e.g. The Great Depression). If being poor and unemployed was a crime then revolutions/destruction of capital wouldn't happen. The first country to adopt free market fascism will experience huge economic growth because the bourgeoisie will be able to accumulate capital exponentially, and replace obsolete human workers with machines without any government intervention to protect the proletariat. In the end, such an economy will attain 90-95% of the world GDP. Everyone else will become mere natural resource exporters because keynesian/socialist/marxist economies won't be able to compete with free market fascism.

 

Free market fascism comprises 3 social classes:

The 1st class(fascists) consists of people who guard and regulate the system, and protect the capitalists from jealous proletarians (the artificially created middle class in the USA). If there are elections within this system, then only members of this class can vote. Though consulting the capitalist class is still possible. 1 to 10 million people are needed for this class. Tax revenue (approximately 10% of the GDP) from exploitation of capitalists is distributed more or less equally among members of the ruling class. They are the shareholders.

2nd class("haves"): capitalists, entrepreneurs, investors, speculators, lenders, rentiers, etc. Up to 1 million people.

3rd class("have-nots"): proletarians, including highly skilled workers, scientists and intellectuals. They are needed in the beginning, but most of them will eventually be replaced with machines and AI. Up to 100 million people.

 

Japan and Germany have huge economies, yet relatively small territories (less than 400,000 km2). In free market fascism a large population won't be needed either. A territory of similar size can be created (sea platform/artificial island), or the population of a country that nobody cares about can be displaced (Somalia, Colombia, Uganda, etc.)

[imatfaal]

Free market capitalism provides fastest economic growth possible.

That's not agreed - for instance the Japanese growth model after WW2 was very structured and government guided, the Chinese model at present is again a mixture of central control with areas of laissez-faire. It is difficult to actually find a real-world example of anything close to free market capitalism.

 

However free market capitalism is "unfair", leads to extreme income inequality and destroys jobs through automation.

Most systems will endevour to increase productivity - the "unfairness" of strict capitalism is the divorce between the labourer and the fruits of that labour

 

Economic cycles produce unemployment which can lead to revolution, or destruction of capital by the democratic government to create demand for excess human supply (e.g. The Great Depression). If being poor and unemployed was a crime then revolutions/destruction of capital wouldn't happen.

Anything to back-up that assertion - as poor is a relative term and full employment is utopian, you have created a crime that will always have perpetrators and no victims; this is more a system of oppresion than a crime. I am also unwilling to bet on anything being able to weaken the propensity of mankind to revolt eventually against repression.

 

The first country to adopt free market fascism will experience huge economic growth because the bourgeoisie will be able to accumulate capital exponentially, and replace obsolete human workers with machines without any government intervention to protect the proletariat. In the end, such an economy will attain 90-95% of the world GDP. Everyone else will become mere natural resource exporters because keynesian/socialist/marxist economies won't be able to compete with free market fascism.

The first country will have bloody and horrible revolution

 

Free market fascism comprises 3 social classes:

The 1st class(fascists) consists of people who guard and regulate the system, and protect the capitalists from jealous proletarians (the artificially created middle class in the USA). If there are elections within this system, then only members of this class can vote. Though consulting the capitalist class is still possible. 1 to 10 million people are needed for this class. Tax revenue (approximately 10% of the GDP) from exploitation of capitalists is distributed more or less equally among members of the ruling class. They are the shareholders.

2nd class("haves"): capitalists, entrepreneurs, investors, speculators, lenders, rentiers, etc. Up to 1 million people.

3rd class("have-nots"): proletarians, including highly skilled workers, scientists and intellectuals. They are needed in the beginning, but most of them will eventually be replaced with machines and AI. Up to 100 million people.

As a utopia - I have seen less likely versions posited, but not by much.

 

A slightly less extreme version of what you are proposing becomes very interesting - the gradual disenfranchisment of vast swathes of the nation, kept happy on bread and games; power being slowly and inexorable channeled into the hands of the few through manipulation of/by the media and the formation of a political elite; and the marginalisation into a criminal underclass of all who do not blindly accept their fate. In an even more watered-down version of this form of political/economical ideology we can can see chilling parallels to the western nation states of today.

 

Japan and Germany have huge economies, yet relatively small territories (less than 400,000 km2). In free market fascism a large population won't be needed either. A territory of similar size can be created (sea platform/artificial island), or the population of a country that nobody cares about can be displaced (Somalia, Colombia, Uganda, etc.)

Now that's just offensive!

[freemarketfascist]

That's not agreed - for instance the Japanese growth model after WW2 was very structured and government guided

 

Japan had two lost decades because of government intervention.

 

the Chinese model at present is again a mixture of central control with areas of laissez-faire.

 

China has very unequal wealth distribution.

 

The first country will have bloody and horrible revolution

 

 

No, fascist government will have access to any military equipment including WMDs, while workers will be completely unarmed. Class warfare is impossible in such system.

 

 

[imatfaal]

Japan had two lost decades because of government intervention.

and it grew massively in prior decades under almost exactly government intervention

 

China has very unequal wealth distribution.

Yep - it also has high growth and massive central control. Your point was that the highest growth rate was under free-market capitalism - I showed that in two recent(ish) examples that world challenging growth was experienced by a state under strict government control. you have yet to provide a nice example of a true free-market stateshowing consistent record growth.

 

No, fascist government will have access to any military equipment including WMDs, while workers will be completely unarmed. Class warfare is impossible in such system.

Govvernments tend always to have access to the cutting edge of military equipment - but materiel is never enough, you need grunts to operate it; the ability to alienate the grunts from the populace runs out in the end - and suddenly the government's highly paid security apparatus become the government's executioners.

[swansont]

The 1st class(fascists) consists of people who guard and regulate the system … 1 to 10 million people

2nd class("haves"): capitalists, entrepreneurs, investors, speculators, lenders, rentiers, etc. Up to 1 million people.

3rd class("have-nots"): … Up to 100 million people.

 

What's to keep the have-nots from simply having a revolution to overthrow the system? They outnumber the rest by ~ 15:1

 

or the population of a country that nobody cares about can be displaced (Somalia, Colombia, Uganda, etc.)

Really? You had to go there?

[freemarketfascist]

the ability to alienate the grunts from the populace runs out in the end

How can you prove that?

 

What's to keep the have-nots from simply having a revolution to overthrow the system? They outnumber the rest by ~ 15:1

"have-not's" don't have access to military equipment. Without guns they are defenceless.

[swansont]

No, fascist government will have access to any military equipment including WMDs, while workers will be completely unarmed. Class warfare is impossible in such system.

 

And these weapons would be provided by whom? The magicians in the Ministry of Magic, or the have-nots that are doing the work? Why will they do the work that perpetuates the system that leaves them as have-nots?

[freemarketfascist]

And these weapons would be provided by whom?

Russia, China. They sell weapons to everyone.

 

The magicians in the Ministry of Magic, or the have-nots that are doing the work? Why will they do the work that perpetuates the system that leaves them as have-nots?

There is competition in free market. If you won't make weapons, somebody else will do it.

 

 

 

[insane_alien]

you seem to be assuming that the 'have-nots' will have no weapons. This is a false assumption. They will have the ability to manufacture IED's there will be a gun trade, especially if it is a totally free economy, black market if its not as free as you think. at the very least they'll have access to tools such as pitchforks, crow bars etc. they'll have enough to stage an effective riot. There will be revolts. There have been revolts for a lot less. even against better armed opponents.

 

second, assuming you have a tranquil population, your government will face massive amounts of corruption. corruption is pretty much unavoidable in any government system but as this one provides a lot of power to the ruling classes and supposes a powerless underclass, the temptation will make it rife within the organisation.

 

overall, assuming you managed to bring this in, total governmental collapse in 10-15 years.

[swansont]

Russia, China. They sell weapons to everyone.

 

There is competition in free market. If you won't make weapons, somebody else will do it.

 

Where will the money come from?

[freemarketfascist]

Where will the money come from?

Tax revenue from "haves"

 

you seem to be assuming that the 'have-nots' will have no weapons.

There won't be gun rights for "have-nots"

 

This is a false assumption. They will have the ability to manufacture IED's there will be a gun trade, especially if it is a totally free economy, black market if its not as free as you think. at the very least they'll have access to tools such as pitchforks, crow bars etc. they'll have enough to stage an effective riot. There will be revolts. There have been revolts for a lot less. even against better armed opponents.

Fascist government will have enough military power to suppress any riot.

 

 

second, assuming you have a tranquil population, your government will face massive amounts of corruption. corruption is pretty much unavoidable in any government system but as this one provides a lot of power to the ruling classes and supposes a powerless underclass, the temptation will make it rife within the organisation.

How is corruption harmful if it is not a democracy?

 

 

overall, assuming you managed to bring this in, total governmental collapse in 10-15 years.

And what are exact reason for this collapse?

 

 

 

[insane_alien]

There won't be gun rights for "have-nots"

 

and you'll solve gun smuggling how? not to mention there will be firearms that have been kept as "souvenirs" from before, historic pieces that can be reactivated, homemades and the flat out stolen from military/police.

 

Fascist government will have enough military power to suppress any riot.

 

yeah, because that always works. china has a big military but its seen its fair share of riots. sure, they're stopped quickly and brutally, but it does nothing to keep the populace happy. infact, a massacre like that has a very negative effect on morale for both the soldiers and the civilians.

 

and look at syria, lybia etc. rioting, guerilla warfare etc. it takes very little effort to make big disruptions. a couple of IEDs going off could effectively shutdown the productivity of a city and cause panic.

 

How is corruption harmful if it is not a democracy?

 

the exact same way it is harmful in a democracy. the corrupt people are not playing by the plan of the party in general. siphoning off money, running black markets (ie gun importation which i talked about earlier) basically profiting in unauthorised ways. they could even be plotting to overthrow the head of state! revolution from the 1st and second classes. There are many movies and stories(some true, or based on true examples) around this.

 

And what are exact reason for this collapse?

 

corruption and civil unrest. its naive to think that these two things will not be problems.

[swansont]

Tax revenue from "haves"

 

Why will they be any different from today's "haves" in the USA? Have you been paying attention to the tax policy over the last decade or so?

[freemarketfascist]

and you'll solve gun smuggling how?

I live in country where guns are not allowed and gun smuggling is not a problem.

 

not to mention there will be firearms that have been kept as "souvenirs" from before, historic pieces that can be reactivated, homemades

How will you fight with that against tanks and WMDs that fascist government possess?

 

yeah, because that always works. china has a big military but its seen its fair share of riots.

 

And nobody overthrown them...

 

the corrupt people are not playing by the plan of the party in general. siphoning off money,

why? fascist government will have huge tax revenue that will be distributed among members of fascist government.

they could even be plotting to overthrow the head of state!

So? Any country may have such people in government

 

corruption

prove it please. How exactly will corruption lead to collapse. All countries have some level of corruption and most of them don't collapse.

 

and civil unrest.

Fascists will have huge military power so even with smuggled guns workers won't be able to overthrow government.

 

Why will they be any different from today's "haves" in the USA? Have you been paying attention to the tax policy over the last decade or so?

There won't be wealth redistribution, taxes will be even lower and "haves" will be able to accumulate much greater wealth.

Edited June 18, 2012 by freemarketfascist

[swansont]

fascist government will have huge tax revenue that will be distributed among members of fascist government.

…

There won't be wealth redistribution, taxes will be even lower and "haves" will be able to accumulate much greater wealth.

How?

 

How are they making their money? The have-nots can't afford to buy anything, and won't be motivated to work for the haves. There is no real wealth creation from the things that the "haves" are doing.

 

You've set up this idealized system with no way to get there.

[freemarketfascist]

How?

 

How are they making their money? The have-nots can't afford to buy anything

It's keynesian myth. Capitalists don't need working class for consumption. They can consume everything themselves.

 

There is no real wealth creation from the things that the "haves" are doing.

When production will be fully automatized workers won't be needed for wealth creation.

 

 

You've set up this idealized system with no way to get there.

 

There is plenty of capitalists and workers. So we need only fascist class and relatively small territory. That doesn't seem too hard.

 

 

 

[swansont]

When production will be fully automatized workers won't be needed for wealth creation.

 

How do you get there? You have to create this in place, somehow.

[ecoli]

There's lots of problems with this thread. I'm a pro-free market guy myself, but you make lots of claims without any evidence.

 

Granted, its hard [impossible?] to find examples of totally free markets, so claims about the superiority of free markets are hard to verify. But its probably a moot point anyway. Political control over the economy will pretty much happen as long as there are a few people with the desire and means to establish such power.