Can you mix science with god?

[immortal]

My position doesn't need vindication, and it isn't your posts I dislike. It is you. I hate you to your very core. Let's have that straight.

 

"Truthful words are not beautiful; beautiful words are not truthful. Good words are not persuasive; persuasive words are not good"

 

- Lao Tzu

 

You can hate me all you want just because I speak the truth but I don't have anything personal against anyone and I just criticize for the flawed position that people hold on to and I am not going to stop it just because you threaten to hate me.

 

I don't think more conceited words have ever been said. You're alright, but "the world" needs fixing? When you're dead and gone the world will probably stop spinning, eh? Whatever. I can't deal with this nonsense. The best of luck to you,

 

Yes, any matured educated man who doesn't realize that a God resides in him is at best deluded and broken.

[John Cuthber]

You seem to overlook the fact that there is no evidence that what you speak is actually the truth.

On the other hand, hating you for speaking what you think is the truth is also ludicrous.

 

To the extent that this "Yes, any matured educated man who doesn't realize that a God resides in him is at best deluded and broken." is true, it makes the word "God" meaningless.

[Iggy]

On the other hand, hating you for speaking what you think is the truth is also ludicrous.

 

Are you sure? Would you tell Hitler the same? Would you accept that Hitler believed what he said about exterminating the Jews was true therefore one can't hate him? I don't think so. I think a person can be hated for what they say. I believe there is a deliciously ludicrous gap in what you just proposed.

[John Cuthber]

I wouldn't have hated him for what he said, I'd have hated him for what he did.

 

His beliefs should have been laughed at which would have discredited them, rather than feared (fear is the origin of hatred) which lent them credibility.

 

As far as I can see,Immortals stated beliefs are absurd, but no more harmful than the beliefs of other religions.

 

BTW, nice Godwin award.

Edited March 10, 2013 by John Cuthber

[Iggy]

I wouldn't have hated him for what he said, I'd have hated him for what he did.

 

His beliefs should have been laughed at which would have discredited them, rather than feared (fear is the origin of hatred) which lent them credibility.

 

As far as I can see,Immortals stated beliefs are absurd, but no more harmful than the beliefs of other religions.

 

BTW, nice Godwin award.

 

Ha! I knew Godwin was going to be mentioned from that. We need a Godwin's Godwin law where anyone who mentions Hitler gets Godwin thrown at them. You've positively won that.

 

Yes, I suppose we could hate Hitler for what he did. He was, after all, a vegetarian painter. That's two reasons to hate the guy right there.

 

If I knew more about Immortal I probably would hate him for what he does. I assume he tortures small animals and rapes kids, but I don't know. I have to judge him by what he says. And I don't know what "no more harmful than the beliefs of those religions" means. That's very contradictory. John Adams said that Christianity was the bloodiest religion ever to exist, and now you're saying that "other religions" aren't harmful. I think John Adams had it right. I think it's all a bloody mess and worthy of hatred.

[John Cuthber]

"And I don't know what "no more harmful than the beliefs of those religions" means. That's very contradictory."

Just as well that I didn't say it then.

[ydoaPs]

!

Moderator Note

Remember to stay civil. Keep the discussion about the topic; not the people.

[Iggy]

"And I don't know what "no more harmful than the beliefs of those religions" means. That's very contradictory."

Just as well that I didn't say it then.

 

Dear Lord! You said "no more harmful than the beliefs of other religions" and I quoted it "no more harmful than the beliefs of those religions".

 

I've butchered and mangled your words horrifically. I do apologize and don't know how I'll ever be forgiven.

 

edit... yes... the topic...

 

You can't mix science with god because they are mutually exclusive methods. Science and religion are both sets of information gleaned from opposing methods. If religion were falsifiable then it wouldn't be religion, and if science were not subject to skepticism and doubt then it wouldn't be science. A single person can reconcile both in the way that anyone can keep two sets of books, but the books can't be mixed. They are at odds in every way that two things can be at odds. It seems to me. Sorry for the previous hatelful tangent.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Iggy

[PeterJ]

It depresses the hell out me to see religion being so poorly defended and so mindlessly attacked.

 

It is completerly pointless telling people that we know the truth and that other people should roll-over and believe it. This is not facebook. And if we want to attack religion then this cannot be done from a position of ignorance. The objections here are toothless.

 

Yes, I'm arrogant. Or maybe it's confidence. But I'm also sympathetic to sceptics and believe they deserve sensible responses and not appeals to superior knowledge or textual authority. So go for it Immortal, Let's hear some sound arguments.

[John Cuthber]

Did it occur to you that there may be a reason why nobody is doing a good job of defending religion?

 

(BTW, Iggy, he wasn't vegetarian either)

[tar]

I should have said earlier... I read (I did read) every word of that and appreciated and believed every word too.

 

I'm glad to say, in other words, that your parent mixed well enough to span you. I appreciate the tightrope you seem to walk. I wish you didn't bury the lead when you say "my sister and I are both atheists". I wish you planted a flag there and argued from it with conviction. But, I've seen you do the pantheist thing where you say that the universe is god. I don't get that, and I don't know why you insist on it... but... I appreciate it nonetheless. It rings honest.

Iggy,

 

Well, thank you for that. It is important to me, to be understood, and considered honest. Its a validation that I appreciate.

 

And I make the milk metaphor to offer the suggestion that "mixing" has a few meanings as surely as soluble does. And if we keep two sets of books, one to account for our fatty acid intake, and one to account for our water intake, we are still drinking the milk, and still owe the cow some consideration.

 

Make the fatty acids money and power, toys and technology, science and logic and make the water charity and love, dance and music, art and religion, and TAR2 can make the cow, the god that people, all people, might have, to consider.

 

Then, with this metaphor, consider the evident situation that there once was a time where human consciousness had not yet emerged. There was something (let's call it the above mentioned cow)which did however exist. My belief in emergent evolution forces me, and I would surmise any believer in emergent evolution, to consider the steps, from "no conscious human" to "the first conscious human", with no magic, unreal "outside" influences. Presupposing this "without us" cow, and understanding an explanation of how the cow now contains us, ties us logically and realistically to the cow. We are not possibly superior to, or separate from the cow, as that we would not be, but for it, and what it spawned. And do not investigate it, or love it as an outsider, but as a child of it.

 

Seems a tight rope best walked with ones feet on the ground, and ones head in the clouds.

 

Regards, TAR2

 

So as to planting my flag, in the atheist camp. I do plant my flag there. But the flag has a picture of a cow, under a flowering tree, in a green pasture, with a babbling brook running through it, and a bright Sun shining in a blue sky with white fluffy clouds. Just so as that I can still carry my banner and be recognized as a friend, when I leave camp and venture out and visit the other camps.

[tar]

Tar translation of psalm 23 from the King James version, into moo talk.

1<> The Cow is my shepherd; I shall not want.

2She maketh me to lie down in green pastures: she leadeth me beside the still waters.

3She restoreth my soul: she leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for her name's sake.

4Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for the cow art with me; her womb and her teats they comfort me.

5 The cow preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: the cow anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the field of the cow for ever.

Phi,

 

Is my belief that reality can metaphorically be taken as a cow (as describe above), and my subsequent "faith" in this cow's existence prior, during and after my life, a sign that I have in any way been duped, as described in the OP of your faith thread?

 

Would STRONG faith in this cow, that lead me to believe that there were considerations to be considered that trumped my personal existence and lifespan, be an untrue or illogical judgment to make?

 

Can you see how I might think that science and God can truely mix and form a solid, edible, cheese.

 

Regards, TAR2

Edited March 10, 2013 by tar

[Ringer]

Attempts to explain nature? You mean science(the man-made kind) manipulates nature and destroys nature's biodiversity with pesticides?

You seem to mistake science with technology.

"Evidence" can easily be misinterpreted.

And that is why science is open, and results needed to be replicated and studied.

Whic

h standard? Religious standard? Natures standard?

The standard as in the common belief, what the consensus among the majority is. Everything explanation in science is put through the ringer of people attempting to rip the explanation apart and find evidence that contradicts the current models.

God didn't write the bible; man did.

 

Faith is not about following the man-made bible, its about letting go of the ego and giving control of your life over to God however in reality people let go of their ego and start feeling the energies inside themselves.

I didn't mention the bible, I just said whatever god one follows the point of the religion is to follow the directions of that god. And giving control of your life to said god is just an extension of that.

Its called confirmation bias.

Pot, meet kettle.

You keep talking to me like I am a religious person. Why do you hate religion so much?

How so? And in what way does this actually address the point I was making?

I follow natures law and no one elses.

Yeah, there's not much choice in following nature's laws, that's the magic of objective reality.

So.. nature is unnecessary?

No, adding extraneous assumptions to the definition of nature is unnecessary.

If you read the OP's question thoroughly... you'll see that he is not talking about religion at all!

I didn't mention the bible, I just said whatever god one follows the point of the religion is to follow the directions of that god. And giving control of your life to said god is just an extension of that. Edited March 10, 2013 by Ringer

[Iggy]

(BTW, Iggy, he wasn't vegetarian either)

 

He damn well was!

 

Look.... I appreciate where you're coming from. My Grandmother shared her maiden name with you and my chemistry teacher in high school inspired me more than mortal man should probably inspire another person. Besides all that... I've seen you say things on this forum that blew me away. From all corners. Fucking blew me away. I couldn't pick a fight with you if I wanted to.

 

But, please, don't appear to apologize for Hitler. When Goebbels and Hugh Trevor-Roper get together and decide something about Hitler, I'm thinking you and I should be on board with it. Nobody pretends to be a vegetarian as well as he did without slightly being one.

 

And that brings me to Tar's obsession with cows...

 

Seems a tight rope best walked with ones feet on the ground, and ones head in the clouds.

 

I'm ever so slightly curious... do you know that you're quoting Paramore? Brick by boring brick. That's good.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Iggy

[John Cuthber]

Moot point anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler_and_vegetarianism

 

And not repeating what is cited as Goebbels' propaganda isn't apologising for Hitler.

[Iggy]

Moot point anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler_and_vegetarianism

 

And not repeating what is cited as Goebbels' propaganda isn't apologising for Hitler.

 

Oh dear god, that was funny. I meant to say "irving". David Irving... I was thinking of how he said that Hitler's vegetarianism was real enough to annoy the piss out of Eva Braun. But I was thinking Irving and said Goebbbels. I'm sure that isn't the first time that's happened.

 

Whatever... I'm sue we're completely off topic, and like I said, I'm not willing to pick a fight on the topic. So.... yeah...

 

Confusing Irving for Goebbles, HA!

[immortal]

It depresses the hell out me to see religion being so poorly defended and so mindlessly attacked.

 

It is completerly pointless telling people that we know the truth and that other people should roll-over and believe it. This is not facebook. And if we want to attack religion then this cannot be done from a position of ignorance. The objections here are toothless.

 

Yes, I'm arrogant. Or maybe it's confidence. But I'm also sympathetic to sceptics and believe they deserve sensible responses and not appeals to superior knowledge or textual authority. So go for it Immortal, Let's hear some sound arguments.

 

Bohr once said that if you are not mentally disturbed by what quantum mechanics is telling you then you have not understood it. I have to say this that if you are not mentally disturbed by what the doctrine of non-dualism is saying to you then you have not understood it. Do you know why I criticize your position so much its because you have not understood the doctrine of non-dualism yet and you do not know its implications.

 

I am least concerned about making my beliefs logical or scientific, our ancients didn't knew either metaphysics or science and please don't try to distort their doctrines.

 

Marvin Meyer's translation of Mithras Liturgy.

 

Actual Text

 

(475) Be gracious to me, 0 Providence and Psyche, as I write these mysteries handed down for gain but for instruction; and for an only child I request immortality, O initiates of this our power (furthermore, it is necessary for you, O daughter, to take (480) the juices of herbs and spices, which will to you at the end of my holy treatise), which the great god Helios Mithras ordered to be revealed to me by his archangel, so that I alone may ascend into heaven as an inquirer (485) and behold the universe.

This is the invocation of the ceremony:¹

 

"First -origin of my origin, AEEIOYO, first beginning of my beginning,² PPP SSS PHR[] spirit³ of spirit, the first of the spirit (490) in me, MMM, fire given by god to my mixture of the mixtures in me, the first of the fire in me, EY EIA EE, water of water, the first of the water in me, OOO AAA EEE, earthy substance, the first of the earthy substance in me, (495) YE YOE, my complete body (I,_______whose mother is _______⁴), which was formed by a noble arm and an incorruptible right hand in a world without light and yet radiant, without soul and yet alive with soul, YEI AYI EYOIE: now if it be your will, METERTA (500) PHOTH (METHARTHA PHERIE, in another place)⁵ YEREZATH, give me over to immortal birth and, following that, to my underlying nature, so that,⁶ after the present need which is pressing me exceedingly, I may gaze upon the immortal (505) beginning with the immortal spirit, ANCHREPHRENESOYPHIRIGCH, with the immortal water, ERONOYI PARAKOYNETH, with the most steadfast air, EIOAE PSENABOTH; that I may be born again in thought, KRAOCHRAX R OIM ENARCHOMAI,⁷ (510) and the sacred spirit may breathe in me, NECHTHEN APOTOY NECHTHIN ARPI ETH; so that I may wonder at the sacred fire, KYPHE; that I may gaze upon the unfathomable, awesome water of the dawn, NYO THESO ECHO OYCHIECHOA, and the vivifying (515),and encircling aether may hear me, ARNOMETHPH; for today I am about to behold, with immortal eyes -- I, born mortal from mortal womb, but transformed by tremendous power and an incorruptible right hand (520)! -- and with immortal spirit, the immortal Aion and and master of the fiery diadems--

I, sanctified through holy consecrations!-- while there subsists within me, holy, for a short time, my human soul-might, which I will again (525) receive after the present bitter and relentless necessity which is pressing down upon me--

I, _______ whose mother is _______ according to the immutable decree of god, EYE YIA EEI AO EIAY IYA IEO! Since it is impossible for me, born (530) mortal, to rise with the golden brightnesses of the immortal brilliance, OEY AEO EYA EOE YAE 5IAE, stand, O perishable nature of mortals, and at once me safe and sound after the inexorable and pressing (535) need. For I am the son PSYCHO[N] DEMOY PROCHO PROA, I am MACHARPH[.]N MOY PROPSYCHON PROE!"

 

Draw in breath from the rays, drawing up three times as much as you can, and you will see yourself being lifted up and (540) ascending to the height, so that you seem to be in mid-air. You will hear nothing either of man or of any other living thing, nor in that hour will you see anything of mortal affairs on earth, but rather you will see all immortal things. For in that day (545) and hour you will see the divine order of the skies: the presiding gods⁸ rising into heaven, and others setting. Now the course of the visible gods will appear through the disk of god, my father; and in similar fashion the so-called "pipe" (550), the origin of the ministering wind. For you will see it hanging from the sun's disk like a pipe. You will see the outflow of this object toward the regions westward, boundless as an east wind, if it be assigned to the regions of the East--and the other (viz. the west wind), similarly, toward its own (555) regions.⁹ And you will see the gods staring intently at you and rushing at you. So at once put your right finger on your mouth and say:

"Silence! Silence! Silence! Symbol of the living, incorruptible god! (560) Guard me, Silence, NECHTHEIR THANMELOY!" Then make a long hissing sound, next make a popping sound, and say: "PROPROPHEGGE MORIOS PROPHYR PROPHEGGE NEMETHIRE ARPSENTEN PTTETMI MEOY ENARTH PHYRKECHO PSYRIDARIO (565) TYRE PHILBA." Then you will see the gods looking graciously upon you and no longer rushing at you, but rather going about in their own order of affairs. So when you see that the world above is clear (570) and circling, and that none of the gods or angels is threatening you, expect to hear a great crash of thunder, so as to shock you. Then say again: "Silence! Silence! (the prayer) I am a star, wandering about with you, and shining forth out of (575) the deep, OXY¹⁰ O XERTHEYTH." Immediately after you have said these things the sun's disk will be expanded. And after you have said the second prayer, where there is "Silence! Silence!" and the accompanying words, make a hissing sound twice and a popping sound twice, and immediately you will see (580) many five- pronged stars coming forth from the disk and filling all the air. Then say again: "Silence! Silence!"

 

And when the disk is open, you will see the fireless circle, and the fiery doors shut tight (585). At once close your eyes and recite the following prayer. The third prayer:

"Give ear to me, hearken to me, _______ whose mother is _______, O Lord, you who have bound together with your breath the fiery bars of the fourfold (590) root, O Fire-Walker, PENTITEROYNI, Light-Maker (others: Encloser), SEMESILAM, Fire-Breather, PSYRINPHEY, Fire-Feeler, IAO, Light-Breather, OAI,¹¹ Fire-Delighter, ELOYRE, Beautiful Light, AZAI, Aion, ACHBA, (595) Light-Master, PEPPER PREPEMPIPI, Fire-Body, PHNOYENIOCH, Light-Giver, Fire-Sower, AREI EIKITA, Fire-Driver, GALLABALBA, Light-Forcer, AIO, Fire-Whirler, PYRICHIBOOSEIA, Light-Mover, SANCHEROB, Thunder-Shaker (600), IE OE IOEIO, Glory-Light, BEEGENETEE Light-Increaser, SOYSINEPHIEN, Fire-Light-Maintainer, SOYSINEPHI ARENBARAZEI MARMARENTEY, Star-Tamer: open for me, PROPROPHEGGE EMETHEIRE MORIOMOTYREPHILBA, because, (605) on account of the pressing and bitter and inexorable necessity, I invoke the immortal names, living and honored, which never pass into mortal nature and are not declared in articulate speech by human tongue or mortal speech (610) or mortal sound: EEO OEEO IOO OE EEO EEO OE EO IOO OEEE OEE OOE IE EO OO OE IEO OE OOE IEO OE IEEO EE IO OE IOE OEO EOE OEO OIE OIE EO OI III EOE OYE EOOEE EO EIA AEA EEA (615) EEEE EEE EEE IEO EEO OEEEOE EEO EYO OE EIO EO OE OE EE OOO YIOE."

 

Say all these things with fire and spirit, until completing the first utterance; then, similarly, begin the second, until you complete the (620) seven immortal gods of the world. When you have said these things, you will hear thundering and shaking in the surrounding realm; and you will likewise feel yourself being agitated. Then say again: "Silence!" (the prayer) Then open your eyes and you will see the doors (625) open and the world of the gods which is within the doors, so that from the pleasure and joy of the sight your spirit runs ahead and ascends. So stand still and at once draw breath from the divine into yourself, while you look intently. Then when (630) your soul is restored, say: "Come, Lord, ARCHANDARA PHOTAZA PYRIPHOTA ZABYTHIX ETIMENMERO PHORATHEN ERIE PROTHRI PHORATHI."

When you have said this, the rays will turn toward you; look at the center of them. For when (635) you have done this, you will see a youthful god, beautiful in appearance, with fiery hair, and in a white tunic and a scarlet cloak, and wearing a fiery crown. At once greet him with the fire-greeting:

"Hail, O Lord, Great Power, Great Might, (640) King, Greatest of gods, Helios, the Lord of heaven and earth, God of gods: mighty is your breath; mighty is your strength, O Lord. If it be your will, announce me to the supreme god, the one who has begotten and made you: that a man --

I, _______ whose mother is _______ (645) who was born from the mortal womb of _______ and from the fluid of semen, and who, since he has been born again from you today, has become immortal out of so many myriads in this hour according to the wish of god the exceedingly good-- resolves to worship (650) you, and prays with all his human power (that you may take along with you the horoscope of the day and hour today, which has the name THRAPSIARI MORIROK, that he may appear and give revelation during the good hours, EORO RORE ORRI ORlOR ROR ROI (655) OR REORORI EOR EOR EOR EORE!)."

 

After you have said these things, he will come to the celestial pole, and you will see him walking as if on a road. Look intently and make a long bellowing sound, like a horn, releasing all your breath and straining your sides; and kiss (660) the amulets and say, first toward the right: "Protect me, PROSYMERI!" After saying this, you will see the doors thrown open, and seven virgins coming from deep within, dressed in linen garments, and with the faces of asps. They are called the Fates (665) of heaven, and wield golden wands. When you see them, greet them in this manner:

"Hail, O seven Fates of heaven, O noble and good virgins, O sacred ones and companions of MINIMIRROPHOR, O most holy guardians of the four pillars!¹²

(670) Hail to you, the first, CHREPSENTHAES!

Hail to you, the second, MENESCHEES!

Hail to you, the third, MECHRAN!

Hail to you, the fourth, ARARMACHES!

Hail to you, the fifth, ECHOMMIE!

Hail to you, the sixth, TICHNONDAES!

Hail to you, the seventh, EROY ROMBRIES!

There also come forth another seven gods, who have the faces of black bulls, in linen (675) loin-cloths, and in possession of seven golden diadems. They are the so-called Pole-Lords of heaven, whom you must greet in the same manner, each of them with his own name: "Hail, O guardians of the pivot, O sacred and brave youths, who turn (680) at one command the revolving axis of the vault of heaven, who send out thunder and lightning and jolts of earthquakes and thunderbolts against the nations of impious people, but to me, who am pious and god-fearing, you send health and soundness of body (685), and acuteness of hearing and seeing, and calmness in the present good hours of this day, O my Lords and powerfully ruling Gods!

Hail to you, the first, AIERONTHI!

Hail to you, the second, MERCHEIMEROS!

Hail to you, the third, ACHRICHIOYR!

(690) Hail to you, the fourth, MESARGILTO!

Hail to you, the fifth, CHICHROALITHO!

Hail to you, the sixth, ERMICHTHATHOPS!

Hail to you, the seventh, EORASICHE!"

 

Now when they take their place, here and there, in order, look in the air and you will see lightning-bolts going down, and lights flashing (695), and the earth shaking, and a god descending, a god immensely great, having a bright appearance youthful, golden-haired, with a white tunic and a golden crown and trousers,¹³ and holding in his right hand a golden (700) shoulder of a young bull: this is the Bear¹⁴ which moves and turns heaven around, moving upward and downward in accordance with the hour. Then you will see lightning-bolts leaping from his eyes and stars from his body. And at once (705) produce a long bellowing sound, straining your belly, that you may excite the five senses: bellow long until the conclusion, and again kiss the amulets, and say: "MOKRIMO PHERIMOPHERERI, life of me, _______" stay!

Dwell in (710) my soul! Do not abandon me, for one entreats you, ENTHO PHENEN THROPIOTH."

And gaze upon the god while bellowing long; and greet him in this manner:

"Hail, O Lord, O Master of the water!

Hail, O Founder of the earth!

Hail, O Ruler of the wind!

O Bright Lightener (715) , PROPROPHEGGE EMETHIRI ARTENTEPI THETH MIMEO YENARO PHYRCHECHO PSERI DARIO PHRE PHRELBA!

Give revelation 0 Lord, concerning the matter of _______.

O Lord, while being born again, I am passing away; while growing and having grown, (720) I am dying; while being born from a life-generating birth, I am passing on, released to death-- as you have founded, as you have decreed, and have established the mystery.¹⁵

I am PHEROYRA MIOYRI."

After you have said these things, he will immediately respond with a revelation (725). Now you will grow weak in soul and will not be in yourself, when he answers you. He speaks the oracle to you in verse, and after speaking he will depart. But you remain silent, since you will be able to comprehend all these matters by yourself; for at a later time (730) you will remember infallibly the things spoken by the great god, even if the oracle contained myriads of verses. If you also wish to use a fellow-initiate, so that he alone may hear with you the things spoken, let him remain pure together With you for(735) days, and abstain from meat and the bath. And even if you are alone, and you undertake the things communicated by the god, you speak as though prophesying in ecstasy. And if you also wish to show him, then judge whether he is completely worthy as a man (740): treat him just as if in his place you were being judged in the matter of immortalization, and whisper to him the first prayer, of which the beginning is "First origin of my origin, AEEIOYO." And say the successive things as an initiate, over his (745) head, in a soft voice, so that he may not hear, as you are anointing his face with the mystery. This immortalization takes place three times a year. And if anyone, O child, after the teaching, wishes to disobey, then for him it will no longer (750) be in effect. Instruction for the ritual:

Take a sun-scarab which has twelve rays,¹⁶ and make it fall into a deep, turquoise cup, at the time when the moon is invisible;¹⁷ put in together with it the seed of the lotometra, (755) and honey; and, after grinding it, prepare a cake. And at once you will see it (viz. the scarab) moving forward and eating; and when it has consumed it, it immediately dies. Pick it up and throw it into a glass vessel of excellent rose oil, as much as you wish; and (760) spreading sacred sand in a pure manner, set the vessel on it, and say the formula over the vessel for seven days, while the sun is in mid-heaven:

"I have consecrated you, that your essence may be useful to me, to _______ alone, IE IA E EE OY EIA, that you may prove useful to me (765) alone. For I am PHOR PHORA PHOS PHOTIZAAS (others: PHOR PHOR OPHOTHEI XAAS)."

On the seventh day pick up the scarab, and bury it with Myrrh and wine from Mendes and fine linen; and put it away in a flourishing bean-field. (770) Then, after you have entertained and feasted together, put away, in a pure manner, the ointment for the immortalization. If you want to show this to someone else, take the juice of the herb called "kentritis," and smear it, along with rose oil, over the eyes of the one you wish; (775) and he will see so clearly that he will amaze you. I have not found a greater spell than this in the world. Ask the god for what you want, and he will give to you.¹⁸

Now presentation¹⁹ before the great god is like this: obtaining the above-mentioned herb (780) kentritis, at the conjunction (viz. of the sun and the moon)²⁰ occurring in the Lion, take the juice and, after mixing it with honey and myrrh, write on a leaf of the persea tree the eight-letter formula, as is mentioned below. And keeping yourself pure for three days before, set out early in the morning toward the East, (785) lick off the leaf while you show it to the Sun, and then he (viz. the sun god) will listen to you attentively. Begin to consecrate this at the divine new moon,²¹ in the Lion. Now this is the formula:

"I EE 00 IAI."

Lick this up, so that you may be protected; and rolling up the leaf (790) , throw it into the rose oil. Many times have I used the spell, and have wondered greatly. But the god said to me: "Use the ointment no longer, but, after casting it into the river, consult while wearing the great mystery (795) of the scarab revitalized through the twenty-five living birds,²² and consult once a month, at full moon, instead of three times a year." The kentritis plant grows from the month of Payni, in the regions of the (800) black earth, and is similar to the erect verbena. This is how to recognize it: an ibis wing is dipped at its black tip and smeared with the juice, and the feathers fall off when touched. After the Lord (805) pointed this out, it was found in Menelaitis in Phalagry, at the river banks, near the Besas plant.

it is of a single stem, and reddish down to the root; and the leaves are rather crinkled and have fruit (810) like the tip of wild asparagus. It is similar to the so-called talapes, like the wild beet. Now the amulets require this procedure: copy the right one onto the skin (815) of a black sheep, with myrrh-ink, and after tying it with sinews of the same ani- mal, put it on; and copy the left one onto the skin of a white sheep, and use the same procedure. The left one is very full of "PROSTHYMERI" (820), and has this text: "So speaking, he drove through the trench the single-hoofed horses." (Il. X. 564) "And men gasping among grievous slaughters." (Il. X. 521) "And they washed off their profuse sweat in the sea." (Il. X. 572) "You will dare to lift up your mighty spear against Zeus." (IL. VIII.424) (825) Zeus went up the mountain with a golden bullock and a silver dagger. Upon all he bestowed a share, only to Amara did he not give, but he said: "Let go of what you have, and then you will receive, PSINOTHER NOPSITHER THERNOPSI" (and so on, as you like). (830) "So Ares suffered, when Otos and mighty Epialtes²³ ... him. (Il. V. 385) spell for restraining anger: "You will dare to lift up your mighty spear against Zeus." (Il. VIII.424) For friends: "Let ... seize ... , lest we become a source of joy for our enemies." (Il. X. 193)

 

This is religion and actually most people don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes. Religion is concerned with meeting gate keepers in heaven and you need to go beyond the supreme Aeon to achieve non-dualism and attain immortality. As I said you are ignorant and blind about many things so why don't you go and understand the doctrine of non-dualism correctly first.

 

What the heck this has anything to do with science and metaphysics? I would say just shut up and worship the gods just as they say shut up and calculate or else be a strong atheist and don't interfere into issues which you don't know what you're talking of, you cannot mix religion and science.

 

To the extent that this "Yes, any matured educated man who doesn't realize that a God resides in him is at best deluded and broken." is true, it makes the word "God" meaningless.

 

It makes perfect sense, according to the pagan mystery religions there is a Nous separate from the body and behind that Nous is the Intellect and behind that intellect is where the God resides. Only foolish and ignorant people think that God exists in a sky sitting in a golden chair and wearing a golden crown.

 

Isha vashyam idam sarvam jagathyam jagath.

 

Isha Upanishad, verse 1.

 

Translation- The Lord resides in everyone.

 

Which is same as -

 

Christ as each one within him whether an angel, a mystery or a human.

 

 

"In the inner sense of the Veda Surya, the Sun-God, represents the divine Illumination of the Kavi which exceeds mind and forms the pure self-luminous Truth of things. His principal power is self-revelatory knowledge, termed in the Veda “Sight”. His realm is described as the Truth, the Law, the Vast. He is the Fosterer or Increaser, for he enlarges and opens man's dark and limited being into a luminous and infinite consciousness. He is the sole Seer, Seer of Oneness and Knower of the Self, and leads him to the highest Sight. He is Yama, Controller or Ordainer, for he governs man's action and manifested being by the direct Law of the Truth, satyadharma, and therefore by the right principle of our nature, yÀthÀtathyata Õ, a luminous power proceeding from the Father of all existence, he reveals in himself the divine Purusha of whom all beings are the manifestations. His rays are the thoughts that proceed luminously from the Truth, the Vast, but become deflected and distorted, broken up and disordered in the reflecting and dividing principle, Mind. They form there the golden lid which covers the face of the Truth. The Seer prays to Surya to cast them into right order and relation and then draw them together into the unity of revealed truth. The result of this inner process is the perception of the oneness of all beings in the divine Soul of the Universe."

- Aurobindo

Its not my problem if the world is ignorant of the pagan mystery religion.

[John Cuthber]

Oh dear god, that was funny. I meant to say "irving". David Irving... I was thinking of how he said that Hitler's vegetarianism was real enough to annoy the piss out of Eva Braun. But I was thinking

At the risk of being absurdly off topic, Irving was not even ten years old when Hitler and co died.

He's not well placed to comment on how Eva Braun thought.

 

And, to bring it back to somewhere near the topic.

Immortal, you keeps citing old books and texts as if they are evidence.

They tell you no more about God then The Lord of The Rings tells you about dwarfs.

 

To continue to use them is an appeal to authority- it's no more sensible when you do it than when Iggy does.

 

(Though at least you are not labouring under the bizarre misapprehension that I, in any way, condone the third Reich: it was shit and the guys who ran it were shits. It really doesn't matter what they ate nor why they chose their diet)

 

"It makes perfect sense, according to the pagan mystery religions there is a Nous separate from the body and behind that Nous is the Intellect and behind that intellect is where the God resides."

That's nearly consistent with my opinion that God is a figment of my imagination, just like the tooth fairy. He exists somewhere in my brain, but nowhere else.

Where we differ seems to be that you think He created me, but I think we created Him.

Also, I don't see why you think that understanding and the mind are separate from the brain. The evidence shows that they are part of it.

[Iggy]

At the risk of being absurdly off topic, Irving was not even ten years old when Hitler and co died.

He's not well placed to comment on how Eva Braun thought.

 

Well... he's a holocaust denier, Irving is. As a historian commenting on the third reich, that is usually the reason people ignore him. There are better reasons to distrust him than his age I think. If you don't mind me helping you out there.

[DevilSolution]

Sure it is;

 

Nature is God

Science is the Bible

and

Math is Gods language.

[tar]

Iggy,

 

No I didn't realize I was quoting anyone in particular, just using the feet on the ground thing so that my tightrope was laying on it , and I could survive the fall easily, and still have my head in the clouds.

 

Sorry about the cow thing, I guess I milked that metaphor dry.

 

Still would like to know if you have any faith in the whispy stuff that clouds are made of.

 

At the danger of looking like I am arguing for a god that I have already soundly dismissed, I will however probably continue on the abiguity and equivocation route, because I basically am after "what we mean" by god, not "is there a god".

 

I take this route, because it seems a sensible one. No one of us is in the others head. We do not know the subtle differences between our analogies and pattern matchings that make us think the other is missing something important and true.

 

I have long seen an "issue" caused by "the literal" and "the figurative", and what we each think the other is taking in the opposite way than it "should" be taken. On the one hand, the figurative and the literal are easily told apart...but none of us, is convinced that the other could possibly have the same discernment we are capable of...except when we realize that others truely do think and feel in very similar ways, about very similar things. We have no proof or material evidence of this, of course, but there is a lot of circumstancetial (I'll spell that later) evidence that we think and feel alike. We all had moms and dads, many of us siblings, aunts and uncles and cousins, grandparents and so on. We all live in huts or houses or apartments with doors and windows funiture, tvs and computers and such (a lot of us, anyway). Most of us have friends and a way to make a living, or somebody to beg off of. We all get hungry, thirsty, dirty, smelly, and have to go to the bathroom. We all go the the bathroom, or the kitchen to take care of those things. Most of us have two arms, ears, hands, feet, nostrils, eyeballs, legs, cheeks and such, put together in almost exactly the same configuration, with the same senses and motor control working together, guided by very similarly arranged brains. The capabilities any one of us have to sense and remember, feel and predict, plan and act, are not unique to us, individually. However, we exist, in an of a universe that there is only one instance of. In a local cluster of galaxies that is only one cluster of many. but is the only cluster any of us on Earth would call ours. Similarly we all have the same galaxy, the same solar system, and the same Earth. Thus there are things that are solely ours for real, and there are things that are ours figuratively. And the definitions of what is figuratively and/or literally ours, changes with who and what you are including in your definition of self.

 

There are many recipes for how a particular personality can put him/herself together, with this large list of ingredients, some material, some metaphor, some imaginary, some symbolic or analog. And it is difficult for any one of us to get a good taste of what it is, even our spouse, or closest friend, or parent or sibling has cooked up, much less understand the masterpeice put together by an individual at the other keyboard, or building a life on the other side of town, or in another region of the country, or at the other end of the continent or the other side of the world.

 

Yet, we have a clue. We have a feeling, that there is a way we ought to be. To make the others we care about, proud. That we are not alone, and we owe something to somebody or something. And somebody, or something, other than us, cares as well.

 

Our world is very big, and very old, and there are billions of wills on this planet. Each with a vision, of how it ought to be, but each as well with the ability to make it, a little more like that, than it was before. And if this is the case now, as it was yesterday, and the week and year and decade and century and millenium ago, then logic would demand, that we are standing on the shoulders of the people that came before us, and are arm in arm with the people around us. That efforts have been made, ideas turned to reality, inventions and good ideas built on the inventions and good ideas that came before.

 

If one man was alone on this earth, he would be naked and cold and hungry and nothing more than prey to the lions and bears and dogs and boars, snakes and vultures, and open to the elements of cold and wind and water and ice, and subject to infection and disease. He would have to team up with someone, or something. Make some promises, form some pacts, learn from that and those around him, as to how to survive, who and what to align oneself with, and who or what to kill and eat.

 

All in all, I think we have done a good job of working together and taking charge of this place. Technology passed down from generation to generation, and spread between tribes by purchase or robbery or barter or force or simply by observation and copying of that which worked, was certainly one side of the coin. But on the other side of the coin is our feeling of a common connection to all that real stuff, that we are commonly connected to, that we would be nothing and nowhere without.

 

I am not sure there is a normative morality that can be constructed in a purely positivistic way. I am thinking we are subject to the collective consciousness of objective reality, which includes mostly other sentient beings, but also includes some inanimate stuff, like hurricaines and earthquakes and meteors and such, to say nothing of the strong influence of the Sun and its energy, and the Earth and its minerals and gravity, and the air that we breath and the water we drink.

 

When we think of the way it ought to be, we really are about 99 percent there already. And science is only the half of it. The other half, has been in play, and is likely to stay in play, and I really don't think we could or should, do without it.

 

I think the proof that science and God mix, is that they already have.

 

Regards, TAR2

[immortal]

And, to bring it back to somewhere near the topic.

Immortal, you keeps citing old books and texts as if they are evidence.

 

It is those same old books which is going to correct 21st century science. So rather than throwing it into the dustbin and showing disinterest perhaps you should read them,.

 

They tell you no more about God then The Lord of The Rings tells you about dwarfs.

 

Don't be childish everyone knows that the Lord of The Rings is the creation of fictional writers.

 

"It makes perfect sense, according to the pagan mystery religions there is a Nous separate from the body and behind that Nous is the Intellect and behind that intellect is where the God resides."

That's nearly consistent with my opinion that God is a figment of my imagination, just like the tooth fairy. He exists somewhere in my brain, but nowhere else.

Where we differ seems to be that you think He created me, but I think we created Him.

 

Yes, the difference is a very subtle one. That's why I am a theist and as I show below the evidence is on my side.

 

Also, I don't see why you think that understanding and the mind are separate from the brain. The evidence shows that they are part of it.

 

Oh really? The scientific literature is saying something else.

 

"The determinism and materialism of classical mechanics divorced or at least distanced science from many pre-scientific philosophies that held various dualist perspectives towards the mind. Some scientists (like Wigner) believe that quantum mechanics makes certain dualist ideas about the mind/body problem acceptable again within mainstream science."

 

"If what we call reality is only a state of mind then what is mind?"

 

 

If he says he is sympathetic to the Platonic view then one cannot separate the religious elements associated with neo-platonism.

 

I take a hypothesis seriously which the scientific community at best has ignored it even though all evidence in science is pointing towards that this hypothesis should be taken seriously and tested.

 

Differential hypotheses between Indian and Western psychology

The most important difference between the Indian and the Western approach seems to be about the existence of pure consciousness as postulated by the former. However, as far as “normal life” is concerned, ancient Indian psychology, especially as expressed in the systems of Nyaya and Vaise?ika have astonishingly parallel views with modern Western psychology (e.g., Raju, 1983; Sharma, 2003). But there are also some striking differences. For instance, in contemporary Western cognitive psychology, the relationship between brain and mind is seldom explicitly spelled out, but if one would press researchers to make a statement, most would probably resort to the view that cognitive processes co-vary with brain processes, and if pressed still harder, some might say that essentially brain processes produce cognitions and emotions (e.g., Damasio, 1999). The Indian view is just the opposite: the brain is used as an instrument by the mind (e.g., Raju, 1983).

Does the mind use the brain or is the reverse true? This is a very interesting question, which cannot easily be tested. One might, however, try to find evidence for whether mind exists independently from brain. If the brain is the basis for the mind, there should be no mind if the brain is dead. So a good starting point to examine the hypothesis might be to look for evidence on near-death experiences or on reincarnation (for some attempts do to so see Cook, Greyson & Stevenson, 1998; Stevenson, 1987).

Do the senses connect to their “sense-objects”? In Indian psychology, at least in the systems of Nyaya and Vaise?ika, Sa?khya, and Mima?sa, it is assumed that the senses go out to their objects and contact them or even “become” the objects (e.g., Raju, 1983). Therefore, sense-organs such as the eye or the nose that do not really touch their objects seem to be not the whole story according to the Indian view. So one might, for instance, hypothesize that even if the visual sense in the Western understanding does not work any longer, the remaining part of the visual sense in the Indian understanding might still be functioning and an (incomplete) perception might be the result. This hypothesis might open up some interesting links to phenomena such as “blindsight” (e.g., Cowey, 2004).

- Peter Sedlmeier,Indian Psychology and the scientific method.

Our view is just the opposite where an external mind retrospectively creates this empirical reality including the brain. Don't tell me I'm biased, if people have taken sides with me its because they have investigated science honestly and have come to the same conclusion as I have.

[Iggy]

Iggy,

 

No I didn't realize I was quoting anyone in particular, just using the feet on the ground thing so that my tightrope was laying on it , and I could survive the fall easily, and still have my head in the clouds.

 

No... no... I'm sorry, you still sound like you're quoting Paramore.... "with your head in the clouds"... Paramore! It's ok. There are worse people to quote. I was quoting David Irving earlier on. Of the two of us I think I came out the uglier on that one.

 

 

Sorry about the cow thing, I guess I milked that metaphor dry.

 

You murdered it! You didn't stretch the metaphor or drag it out a bit much, you... look... halfway through your post I was sure there lived a cow somewhere near you who can't put up with your attention any longer. Your post literally made me worry about cows who live near you.

 

 

Still would like to know if you have any faith in the whispy stuff that clouds are made of.

 

At the danger of looking like I am arguing for a god that I have already soundly dismissed, I will however probably continue on the abiguity and equivocation route, because I basically am after "what we mean" by god, not "is there a god".

 

I take this route, because it seems a sensible one. No one of us is in the others head. We do not know the subtle differences between our analogies and pattern matchings that make us think the other is missing something important and true.

 

I have long seen an "issue" caused by "the literal" and "the figurative", and what we each think the other is taking in the opposite way than it "should" be taken. On the one hand, the figurative and the literal are easily told apart...but none of us, is convinced that the other could possibly have the same discernment we are capable of...except when we realize that others truely do think and feel in very similar ways, about very similar things. We have no proof or material evidence of this, of course, but there is a lot of circumstancetial (I'll spell that later) evidence that we think and feel alike. We all had moms and dads, many of us siblings, aunts and uncles and cousins, grandparents and so on. We all live in huts or houses or apartments with doors and windows funiture, tvs and computers and such (a lot of us, anyway). Most of us have friends and a way to make a living, or somebody to beg off of. We all get hungry, thirsty, dirty, smelly, and have to go to the bathroom. We all go the the bathroom, or the kitchen to take care of those things. Most of us have two arms, ears, hands, feet, nostrils, eyeballs, legs, cheeks and such, put together in almost exactly the same configuration, with the same senses and motor control working together, guided by very similarly arranged brains. The capabilities any one of us have to sense and remember, feel and predict, plan and act, are not unique to us, individually. However, we exist, in an of a universe that there is only one instance of. In a local cluster of galaxies that is only one cluster of many. but is the only cluster any of us on Earth would call ours. Similarly we all have the same galaxy, the same solar system, and the same Earth. Thus there are things that are solely ours for real, and there are things that are ours figuratively. And the definitions of what is figuratively and/or literally ours, changes with who and what you are including in your definition of self.

 

There are many recipes for how a particular personality can put him/herself together, with this large list of ingredients, some material, some metaphor, some imaginary, some symbolic or analog. And it is difficult for any one of us to get a good taste of what it is, even our spouse, or closest friend, or parent or sibling has cooked up, much less understand the masterpeice put together by an individual at the other keyboard, or building a life on the other side of town, or in another region of the country, or at the other end of the continent or the other side of the world.

 

Yet, we have a clue. We have a feeling, that there is a way we ought to be. To make the others we care about, proud. That we are not alone, and we owe something to somebody or something. And somebody, or something, other than us, cares as well.

 

Our world is very big, and very old, and there are billions of wills on this planet. Each with a vision, of how it ought to be, but each as well with the ability to make it, a little more like that, than it was before. And if this is the case now, as it was yesterday, and the week and year and decade and century and millenium ago, then logic would demand, that we are standing on the shoulders of the people that came before us, and are arm in arm with the people around us. That efforts have been made, ideas turned to reality, inventions and good ideas built on the inventions and good ideas that came before.

 

If one man was alone on this earth, he would be naked and cold and hungry and nothing more than prey to the lions and bears and dogs and boars, snakes and vultures, and open to the elements of cold and wind and water and ice, and subject to infection and disease. He would have to team up with someone, or something. Make some promises, form some pacts, learn from that and those around him, as to how to survive, who and what to align oneself with, and who or what to kill and eat.

 

All in all, I think we have done a good job of working together and taking charge of this place. Technology passed down from generation to generation, and spread between tribes by purchase or robbery or barter or force or simply by observation and copying of that which worked, was certainly one side of the coin. But on the other side of the coin is our feeling of a common connection to all that real stuff, that we are commonly connected to, that we would be nothing and nowhere without.

 

I am not sure there is a normative morality that can be constructed in a purely positivistic way. I am thinking we are subject to the collective consciousness of objective reality, which includes mostly other sentient beings, but also includes some inanimate stuff, like hurricaines and earthquakes and meteors and such, to say nothing of the strong influence of the Sun and its energy, and the Earth and its minerals and gravity, and the air that we breath and the water we drink.

 

When we think of the way it ought to be, we really are about 99 percent there already. And science is only the half of it. The other half, has been in play, and is likely to stay in play, and I really don't think we could or should, do without it.

 

I think the proof that science and God mix, is that they already have.

 

Regards, TAR2

 

If there's a point in there I can't find it. If you mean to say that you are an atheist and you believe atheism then say it straight out. If you mean to say that the universe is some kind of pantheism God then say that.... straight out. I'll respect you either way, but I can't figure out what all the twirling about that I just read means. It's transfixing and all that... but to me it's not meaningful. I can't figure out what you mean. I honestly can't.

[John Cuthber]

It is those same old books which is going to correct 21st century science. So rather than throwing it into the dustbin and showing disinterest perhaps you should read them,.

 

Don't be childish everyone knows that the Lord of The Rings is the creation of fictional writers.

 

Oh really? The scientific literature is saying something else.

 

Nope, just saying they are right won't get me to read them. You need to provide evidence, but all yo can do is quote old books.

 

LOTR was, indeed, made up. So were the scriptures.

 

Wigner is dead. Nothing which he ever said will detract from the fact that the mind is in he brain, as proved by the effect of drugs on the mind when they are present in the brain or that brain damage often affects the mind.

[tar]

Iggy,

 

The bovines in the neighborhood are safe from me. (except that really cute one)

 

I did have point with that post, but it is obviously more an opinion than a fact. But that oddly enough, was one of the points I was trying to make. There are many things about human life, that are basically consensus opinions. The law, morality, traditions, and stories and promises of all sorts.

 

I tend to obsess on things, I get an idea and overthink the darn thing, and feed it through every ringer I can think of, and look at it from any and all perspectives I can manage. Such is my rut, that Phi for All helped put me in, over in his faith thread, started by his OP that equated faith with an over-reaction required by the need to believe something was true, BECAUSE it absolutely was not true, and only by digging yourself deeper into fantasy land, could you manage to bolster your belief.

 

I don't know that Phi has it right. I think there is something more, involved in "faith". And the faith we have in each other (not math and quarks) but each other, is akin to the faith that people have in God. And it bears on this thread strongly because neither science or faith, has anyplace, or anything other than reality, to be basing itself on, in the sense, that whatever truely is the case, about the universe...is the case about the universe, regardless of our opinion or judgments on the matter, BUT the only things we can really experience, or know, or care about, concerning reality are the things about it that matter to us.

 

So I carry the rut over into this thread, and try and suggest that God and science mix, because the majority of the human race, keep both sets of books. And there most likely is a good reason that we do. Those reasons are what I care to explain to myself. To illuminate my own understanding.

 

It is more opinion than fact that I am going on about. But sometimes science takes a Godlike perspective on things, and everybody knows what taking a Godlike perspective might mean. As if having such a perspective is a real possibility, or that it should mean anything to anybody. (as in Prof. Krauss being the first to know, how the universe ends.) (don't you think he is "pretending" a little, to take such a perspective, and consider it "true") (true to who?).

 

 

Regards, TAR2

Or to call Andromeda a member of the "local" cluster, when it is exactly NOT local in any real sense of the word local. It is rather the opposite of local. Except in our imaginations where we can take a grain size and manipulate it scalewise, immediately and at will, with no actual sense required. We don't have to add everything back, and make it fit, to imagine it "true". Sort of like belief in god. Just a thought.

But a thought about reality.

I suppose my underlying point, is a challenge to the Humanist. (which I may be one)

How can you have faith in your fellow man, if you think that faith is crap?

Immortal,

 

Making hissing and popping sounds with your mouth does not make the disc of the Sun expand. Not really.

 

Regards, TAR2

Edited March 12, 2013 by tar