Range of the electromagnetic waves?

[dapifo]

I would like to know the range (of lengths and amplitudes) of the electromagnetic waves known and theoretically possible

 

 

Could be between 10 exp -35 meters (Plack Dimension) and 10 exp +1 meters (radio waves).

Edited June 28, 2012 by dapifo

[pmb]

I would like to know the range (of lengths and amplitudes) of the electromagnetic waves known and theoretically possible

 

 

Could be between 10 exp -35 meters (Plack Dimension) and 10 exp +1 meters (radio waves).

Sorry. I don't know what kind of sources there are to produce those wavelengths. However it seems to me that ther are ELF (extra low freqency) waves whose wavelengths are very very long so as to communicate with submarines. The Russians use a wavelengths of 3,658.5 kilometers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines#Extremely_low_frequency

 

It seems to me that if you found a source of EM waves with those wavelengths then you could change your frame of referene to get a different wavelength using the Doppler Effect to get a new frequency.

[dapifo]

Sorry. I don't know what kind of sources there are to produce those wavelengths. However it seems to me that ther are ELF (extra low freqency) waves whose wavelengths are very very long so as to communicate with submarines. The Russians use a wavelengths of 3,658.5 kilometers.

http://en.wikipedia....y_low_frequency

 

It seems to me that if you found a source of EM waves with those wavelengths then you could change your frame of referene to get a different wavelength using the Doppler Effect to get a new frequency.

 

Can we consider the electromagnetic waves energy in themselves, or they are only vibrations (transmitting signal / info)?

[Enthalpy]

There is no physical limit to long waves, but it may take time to observe one period.

 

On Earth, we produce >>kilometric waves (LW begin at 2km), though historic uses (Loran...) disappeared, leaving only submarines to use them.

The longest wave propagating around Earth fits its half-wave between the ground and the ionosphere, about 50km, equivalent to 7kHz - the legal lower limit of "radio waves". These are monitored to count thunderstorms for instance.

 

Longer waves, with approximately half a wave in one Earth diameter, correspond to a resonance of our planet. Thunderstorm monitoring as well. No more a propagation, it's a standing wave.

 

Earthquake scientists measure E and B fields slower than that, but these are standing fields. Same with cave explorers who communicate through the terrain by injecting a current in it.

 

You might try to measure or even produce even longer waves... But:

- Antennas being so much shorter than the wavelength will be very inefficent - I'd say too bad for any observation;

- Between any location and the antipode on Earth, your transmission will be a near field.

 

--------------------------

 

Electromagnetic waves are energy. They're able to create a pair of charge carriers in the CCD retina of a telescope though the star that created this light has disappeared for billions of years. Just like any electric or magnetic field field contains energy, which can be stored in vacuum without any material insulator. In a propagating wave, this energy travels away from the antenna, atom or anything that created it.

[dapifo]

Thanks for your explanation... it is very clear and clever.

 

I see that to use larger waves hasn´t practical sense, but they exist in the universe.

 

So through the universe travel large waves?

 

Possibly waves with lengths and amplitudes of millions of kilometers?.. And they are indetectables for us and ours instruments nowadays?

And thes waves are energy?... So we have not detected these energy,...Could be it "Dark Energy"?

[Klaynos]

A slight clarification. I can't comment on the above post currently but he one before...

 

Energy is a property of stuff not a thing itself. Something cannot be energy it has energy... Electromagnetic waves.contain energy which is frame dependent.

 

OK, a couple more comments as I have a bit more time...

 

You can measure "DC" fields using systems that invoke processes such as the electro-optical Kerr effect.

 

I am far more comfortable talking about frequencies than wavelengths as these relate directly to energies and therefore seem more physically important to me...

 

Possibly waves with lengths and amplitudes of millions of kilometers?.. And they are indetectables for us and ours instruments nowadays?

And thes waves are energy?... So we have not detected these energy,...Could be it "Dark Energy"?

 

As I said we can measure DC (or close to) fields and could shield the experiment and then removing the shielding to look for these... I'm not aware of any outside experiments having been conducted in this way but I've never looked...

 

Dark energy is the place holder name for some energy source that is resulting in the acceleration of the universal expansion, I cannot see how this could be accounted for by long wavelength EM radiation? How would this mechanism work?

[dapifo]

OK.. so we can accept that there are waves out of the scope of the normal frecuencies, that we haven´t detected yet and which energy we don´t know...or we have no calculate.

 

Could exist waves with amplitudes and lengths smaler of 10 exp -35 (Planck Length)?

 

And with amplitudes and lengths larger than 10 exp + 10?

Edited June 29, 2012 by dapifo

[Klaynos]

Assuming the universe is 14.6 billion years old, the longest wavelength with a single oscillation of that time is 1.38123715 × 10²⁶ metres.

 

Going the other way I would assume the limiting factor is more likely to be energy/photon as opposed to plank length. A very very short wavelength results in a very very very high energy... I'm not sure of a good way to estimate this.

[dapifo]

Assuming the universe is 14.6 billion years old, the longest wavelength with a single oscillation of that time is 1.38123715 × 10²⁶ metres.

 

Going the other way I would assume the limiting factor is more likely to be energy/photon as opposed to plank length. A very very short wavelength results in a very very very high energy... I'm not sure of a good way to estimate this.

 

 

Some times I heard 14,6 and other 13,7 billion years old...(?)... Why?

 

This info about longest wavelength is very good and interesting...thanks !!!

 

But may have waves coming from outside of Our Known Universe?... They could be longer wavelength and also go through Our Universe....

Edited June 30, 2012 by dapifo

[Klaynos]

I don't know why you've seen two ages for the univsers, do you know where you've seen them?

 

By known universe I assume you mean observable universe. It is our understanding that the universe is one age whether observable or beyond our horizon.

 

The term outside our universe isn't very meaningful. Universe means everything.

[dapifo]

I don't know why you've seen two ages for the univsers, do you know where you've seen them?

 

By known universe I assume you mean observable universe. It is our understanding that the universe is one age whether observable or beyond our horizon.

 

The term outside our universe isn't very meaningful. Universe means everything.

 

 

If you read the wikipedia says: "Current interpretations of astronomical observations indicate that the age of the universe is 13.75 ± 0.17 billion years"

 

If we consider that the observable universe is only one of the other could exist. (Multiverse) ..then will be possible that any EM wave larger could come from outside of Our Universe?

[Klaynos]

If you read the wikipedia says: "Current interpretations of astronomical observations indicate that the age of the universe is 13.75 ± 0.17 billion years"

 

If we consider that the observable universe is only one of the other could exist. (Multiverse) ..then will be possible that any EM wave larger could come from outside of Our Universe?

 

From references given on wp, I'd propose reading http://iopscience.iop.org/0067-0049/192/2/14/ which seems to be on arxiv, http://arxiv.org/abs/1001.4744

 

I'm not particularly well versed on how they conduct these experiments, so I cannot comment much on the sources of error or what the error on 14.6billion years is as I got the number from the google calculator...

 

I am not familiar with any current ideas that would allow electromagnetic interactions between different universes in a multiverse. I'm not sure whether that would even be feasible, I'm very tempted to lean towards it not being so.

 

--------------

 

This is probably worth a quick read too:

 

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_age.html

[dapifo]

I'm not particularly well versed on how they conduct these experiments, so I cannot comment much on the sources of error or what the error on 14.6billion years is as I got the number from the google calculator...

 

OK..OK...Doesn´t matter, just because people say 13.7 and other 14.3 ...(?)...I don´t know !!!

 

I am not familiar with any current ideas that would allow electromagnetic interactions between different universes in a multiverse. I'm not sure whether that would even be feasible, I'm very tempted to lean towards it not being so.

 

Thanks very much for your anwers, They have been very clarifying for me.

 

If these lage waves exist, then it could be a system to evidence if there are other universes out of the Our Known Universe.

If we are able to detect large waves that only could be make/issued out of Our Universe ... then...other universe may exist (!!!)

 

The problem is to know how we can detect these large waves (?)...and if it is technologically possible nowadays (??)

Edited July 1, 2012 by dapifo

[Klaynos]

OK..OK...Doesn´t matter, just because people say 13.7 and other 14.3 ...(?)...I don´t know !!!

 

You need to be able to understand where the numbers come from and the errors on the values, it is very likely that the error bars for the two values intersect each other, they would therefore be consistent.

 

Thanks very much for your anwers, They have been very clarifying for me.

 

If these lage waves exist, then it could be a system to evidence if there are other universes out of the Our Known Universe.

If we are able to detect large waves that only could be make/issued out of Our Universe ... then...other universe may exist (!!!)

 

The problem is to know how we can detect these large waves (?)...and if it is technologically possible nowadays (??)

 

I provide a physical way of measuring DC fields above. You will have significant difficulty trying to convince anyone that such measurements would be worthwhile without some possible mechanism for the fields to have entered our universe from some other.

[dapifo]

I provide a physical way of measuring DC fields above. You will have significant difficulty trying to convince anyone that such measurements would be worthwhile without some possible mechanism for the fields to have entered our universe from some other.

 

 

Ok, so we could detect and messure large waves (with amplitude and lengh up tu 10 exp +20 meters) using systems that invoke processes such as the electro-optical Kerr effect.

 

As these waves cannot be emited/issued inside Our Universe ... that will evidence that there are other universes out there (!!??)

 

 

Please, have a look to the following thread:

http://www.sciencefo...__fromsearch__1

 

It could be a way to prove/evidence this Theory (!!??)

 

Please, could you tell to me if you see any sense to all it?,,,Thank you very much.

Edited July 1, 2012 by dapifo

[Klaynos]

Ok, so we could detect and messure large waves (with amplitude and lengh up tu 10 exp +20 meters) using systems that invoke processes such as the electro-optical Kerr effect.

 

Feasibly yes, but you would have problems measuring the frequency.

 

As these waves cannot be emited/issued inside Our Universe ... that will evidence that there are other universes out there (!!??)

 

They could just be Doppler shifted though, so it wouldn't pass as evidence for what you are proposing, you still need some mechanism for what you are proposing.

 

Please, have a look to the following thread:

http://www.sciencefo...__fromsearch__1

 

It could be a way to prove/evidence this Theory (!!??)

 

Please, could you tell to me if you see any sense to all it?,,,Thank you very much.

 

I'll try and take a look over the next couple of days, not sure how much time I'm likely to have though.

[dapifo]

Feasibly yes, but you would have problems measuring the frequency.

 

 

 

They could just be Doppler shifted though, so it wouldn't pass as evidence for what you are proposing, you still need some mechanism for what you are proposing.

 

 

 

I'll try and take a look over the next couple of days, not sure how much time I'm likely to have though.

 

 

Do not worry, it's just an "crazy" idea that I wanted to discuss with someone with a solid knowledge of physics.

 

All your explanations have been very useful for me, and I appreciate your time.

 

When you will be able to read this thread, please, let me know your opinion and point of view. Thank you very much

[dapifo]

Do you think that following concepts are correct?:

 

EM Waves of wavelength of 10 exp +10, would be a frequency of 30 mHz (This is just a 30 second wave, nothing special actually,similar to the frequency of magnetic field line resonances in the Earth's magnetosphere).

 

They could be detected, messured and registred with a Multimeter attached to a strip chart recorder, and with a very good isolation from any sort of interference, which may involve going into interstellar space.