Gay gene

[jp255]

I'm not even sure that defining a test group and a control group for the purposes of a GWAS on sexuality is actually possible in any sort of scientifically meaningful way

That is the biggest limitation in my opinion. The accuracy and the errors are also unkown. How can the impact of prejudice against homosexuality even be detected?

 

 

but that is what i have been arguing for the last 6 pages

(it doesn't seem to be getting through to these people)

 

Learn from that post then? I can't recall understanding your points.

 

The choice argument is pretty much total speculation (no can prove how homosexuals think), or at least relies on very imaginative extension of evidence from other species which is barely considered suggestive.

Edited September 24, 2012 by jp255

[dmaiski]

The choice argument is pretty much total speculation (no can prove how homosexuals think), or at least relies on very imaginative extension of evidence from other species which is barely considered suggestive.

 

so you are saying there is no choice?

nature v nurture?

the environment has no influence on mental development?

 

(i know im being mean, but this is what you usually do; only interpret what you want to see, and insert an "always" or "only" where you want)

 

 

what i am fairly certain of is that physical attraction dose not work on a chemical level

also that is works on a mental level, at the level of visual association

(it means you react to observed stimulus through a learned response)

so learning must play a part in this process

(that opinion is not likely to change unless you can show me proof that it dose work on a chemical level)

 

i think you put too much faith into how powerful genes are

(also why would i try to prove how any part of humanity think, most humans have their mental state diverge from the baseline by significant degrees)

 

 

[jp255]

so you are saying there is no choice?

nature v nurture?

the environment has no influence on mental development?

 

(i know im being mean, but this is what you usually do; only interpret what you want to see, and insert an "always" or "only" where you want)

I have already given my opinion on whether or not it is a choice. I think it is likely that sexual attraction is not a choice, but ultimately there is a choice to engage in homosexual behaviour. I just said it is pure speculation and opinion because it is so hard to prove, and I did not previously say that.

 

I never intend to make assertions with 100% certainty, there are probably examples of me saying things suggesting high certainty though.

 

Also, you were not being mean at all. Try reading the statement you quoted again. I don't believe I twist the meanings of everything around and then interpret them as the opposite like you just did.

i think you put too much faith into how powerful genes

are

(also why would i try to prove how any part of

humanity think, most humans have their mental state diverge from the baseline by

significant degrees)

I am aware of the impact of the environment. However in this instance I am not so quick to dismiss the involvement of genes because sexual attraction/partner choice is highly non-random in many animals, and genetics does play an important part in this process.

[dmaiski]

i know i was just prodding you

 

but yes attraction is non random in some animals, these animals use chemicals to attract a mate (usually called pheromones)

if you apply the right pheromones to something you can convince an animal to hump a bag of needles

 

happily i can say humans have shed this trait during their evolution, thus it is not a common office prank to make the coffee machine sexually attractive to your co-workers of the opposite sex in the name of office humour

 

that is why i say it is a mental trait

it could also be:

1. memetic (it means cultural, in a very specific way)

2. psychological

3. a miss-wiring of the brain

4. the fact that tab A dose in fact fit into slot B (structural)

5. viruses

6. chemicals in the water

7. telepathy

8. magic

9. bunny wabbits

10. aliens

11. "gayness waves" (i really have heard this explanation once, it made me laugh, till i cried (out of shame that i belonged to the same species as the author))

 

*in order of plausibility

**these are only the ones i have personally heard about (I have big ears)

***1, 2, 3, 5, 6, and maybe 7, could have genetic components

****the top 4 culprits are all mental

*****i asked myself the question of "how can it be done", i already acknowledge the statement "gayness has a genetic component"

 

the next question i will ask is "how dose your "gay gene" work" be ready...

 

 

[CharonY]

In many animals (best studied in birds) imprinting is quite important in the definition of sexual preferences. As such it reasonable to assume that certain genetic factors together with environmental factor will determine the outcome within a continuum. A hard-wired genetic basis is, considering the complex traits upon which humans determine suitable mates, is not very realistic.

[Manfromzurich]

There is a high chance that I will do exome sequencing next january 2013! Yeah!

[Unity+]

One piece of evidence that could lead to the idea that homosexuality is a genetic disorder is the fact that there are more homosexual men than there are homosexual women. Genetically, this should be statistically correct because women are carriers while men are the ones who only have XY chromosomes that can cause the "gay" gene, but the problem with this issue is the fact that you can argue that men go through puberty longer than women(change in brain function more exactly), which leads to the point of whether this stage causes differences in sexual preferences. I mean, there seems to be no statistic to back up this claim so this can only by hypothesis, but the last one i mentioned can be backed up. In opinion, I feel that there is a genetic disorder, but it doesn't cause the homosexuality but can be the catalyst involved in having a man or woman decide whether they are homo or heterosexual.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Unity+

[iNow]

One piece of evidence that could lead to the idea that homosexuality is a genetic disorder is the fact that there are more homosexual men than there are homosexual women.

[Unity+]

img

[Manfromzurich]

http://www.ashg.org/.../f120122263.htm

 

This results are not from 23andme! It's from a project called gaybros! On the 8 november 2012 they are representing this results .

 

 

But 23andme is going to show so also a GWAS of male homosexuality at the ASHG on the 8 november!

 

 

There is at least a gene in the Xq28 band which cause one subtype of male homosexuality!

Edited October 31, 2012 by Manfromzurich

[Jens]

Given the complex process of sexual orientation it is fair to assume that variations from the most common case can appear at multiple different steps with different effects -- means there are probably different causes.

 

I think it is plausible to assume you (dmaiski and manfromzurich) are both right and what we see in the statistics is a mixture of multiple completly different causes for homosexuality.

A) If an "error" in programming the male brain occurs (which is of course also possible at multiple levels) this very well could result in with some aspects female brain in a male body with usual male hormone levels. Assuming that in this situation the imprinting is also not perfect but works in the other sense to be attracted with high probability by males.

B) If for other individuals an "error" occurs in the imprinting determination factors so that it becomes random (but still completly without any choice by the individual) you end up in a 50% probability of attraction by males or females, but still fixed.

C) If for other individualy an "error" occures in storing any imprinting result, they become bisexual with no preference.

 

(Of course all intermediate situations can also appear) Only individuals in category C have the choice. Those in A and B not.

 

... and it is absolutelty pointless to condemn those in type A or B claiming they have made a wrong choice (as a lot of religous fundamentalists try to do --- This is actually nearly no topic in Germany but it seems to be one in the USA)

... and it is intolerant (they do not harm anybody) to condemn those in Type C.

 

And a last speculation :

I find the roughly 4% of homosexuals quite a high percentage for something which at a first glance looks extremely disadvantagous from an evolutional point of view. So maybe in prehistoric times having individuals with the strength of male bodies but with some of the social capabilities of females (or in simple words: being a bit less egocentric ) which were neither focussing on their own children nor on competing/killing actually might have been an advantage for the group. This is why I have put "error" in double quotes above.

 

... by the way: I am heterosexual and I have definitely not made a choice.....

Edited November 4, 2012 by Jens

[Manfromzurich]

Lets see when I have sequenced my DNA!

 

 

Ich bin aus der Schweiz übrigens! Wie ich sehe Sie sind Biochemiker. Aber auch in Neuroscience will ich studieren gehen. Genau das will ich auch werden! Ich leide jeher über meine Homosexualität. Ich werde auch öffentlich angegriffen von Zeit zu Zeit. Ich muss mir auch oft anhören ich sähe aus wie eine Schwuchtel. Nun das aber erkenne ich selber wenn ich mich in diesem Vdeo sehe oder auf Fotos!

 

 

http://www.youtube.c...iQ&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.c...Pc&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.c...tI&feature=plcp

Edited November 5, 2012 by Manfromzurich

[Moontanman]

Lets see when I have sequenced my DNA!

 

 

Ich bin aus der Schweiz übrigens! Wie ich sehe Sie sind Biochemiker. Aber auch in Neuroscience will ich studieren gehen. Genau das will ich auch werden! Ich leide jeher über meine Homosexualität. Ich werde auch öffentlich angegriffen von Zeit zu Zeit. Ich muss mir auch oft anhören ich sähe aus wie eine Schwuchtel. Nun das aber erkenne ich selber wenn ich mich in diesem Vdeo sehe oder auf Fotos!

 

 

http://www.youtube.c...iQ&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.c...Pc&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.c...tI&feature=plcp

 

 

So you think you look gay? Horsefeathers...

[Manfromzurich]

What does Horsefeathers mean in German?

 

 

http://www.ashg.org/.../f120122263.htm

 

 

It's very provocative. I know that homosexuality is caused by genetic abnormalities and you who are heterosexual are such dumb and mean gays don't have a biological error.

 

 

There are even such a lot of idiotic people who really mean gays have choosen to be homo or there had a different childhood as hetreo guys. Mamma MIA how stupid the people can be!

Edited November 6, 2012 by Manfromzurich

[zapatos]

What does Horsefeathers mean in German?

 

 

http://www.ashg.org/.../f120122263.htm

 

 

It's very provocative. I know that homosexuality is caused by genetic abnormalities and you who are heterosexual are such dumb and mean gays don't have a biological error.

 

 

There are even such a lot of idiotic people who really mean gays have choosen to be homo or there had a different childhood as hetreo guys. Mamma MIA how stupid the people can be!

Moontanman will of course speak for himself, but when he said 'horsefeathers' he was simply saying he disagreed with the notion that you 'look gay'.

 

I agree with him. There are some people who I think 'look gay' (although they may not be; I don't actually ask them) but you are not one of them.

 

Please don't be personally offended by the differing viewpoints in this thread. No one is making any judgements, they are simply looking at the evidence objectively and making their argument for what they believe to be true. I believe anyone here will be happy to change his position if he sees convincing evidence to disprove his position.

[Moontanman]

What does Horsefeathers mean in German?

 

It's a nice way of saying nonsense...

 

 

The way you look has nothing to do with being gay, a great many gay men are very masculine some heterosexual men are effeminate. When i was young many people assumed I was gay, i was "pretty" I had no facial hair until I was 30 years old, I was hit on regularly by gay men but my sexuality is heterosexual... My wife once said i was a flaming heterosexual... still not sure what that means but none the less my looks had nothing to do with my sexuality any more than yours does...

 

I smell a bit of confirmation bias being dropped...

[Jens]

Lets see when I have sequenced my DNA!

 

 

Ich bin aus der Schweiz übrigens! Wie ich sehe Sie sind Biochemiker. Aber auch in Neuroscience will ich studieren gehen. Genau das will ich auch werden! Ich leide jeher über meine Homosexualität. Ich werde auch öffentlich angegriffen von Zeit zu Zeit. Ich muss mir auch oft anhören ich sähe aus wie eine Schwuchtel. Nun das aber erkenne ich selber wenn ich mich in diesem Vdeo sehe oder auf Fotos!

 

@Manfromzurich

This is off topic. If you like, we can open up a personal conversation about this. (just send me an email via my profile)

 

Ein paar Vorschläge, Was ich an Deiner Stelle tun würde:

- Ich würde versuchen, mich zu akzeptieren wie ich bin. Wenn man sich selber nicht mag, dann besteht die Gefahr, dass man auch anfängt, andere zu hassen und schlecht zu behandeln.

- Es ist gut, sich selbst zu reflektieren. Aber Selbstkritik, die schon Selbstzerstörung ist, würde ich nicht üben, da mich deshalb auch niemand besser behandeln würde.

- Ich würde den Kontakt mit Leuten abbrechen, die mich nicht so akzeptieren können, wie ich bin. Falls das wegen einem Arbeitsverhältnis nicht geht, dann würde ich -- zumindest äußerlich -- Leute eiskalt ignorieren, die versuchen mich zu verletzen. Man darf in keiner Weise erkennen lassen, dass man verletzt wurde (weil das die Täter nur noch mehr anstachelt weiterzumachen). Ich weiß, das ist schwer, aber es hilft.

- Ich würde mir Bekannte suchen, die keine Probleme damit haben, homosexuell zu sein und von ihnen lernen. In einer Universitätsstadt sollte das möglich sein.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Jens

[Manfromzurich]

At Jens

 

You give me right that I Have a DNA error?

[Jens]

At Jens

 

You give me right that I Have a DNA error?

 

 

The data mentioned in this thread (~50% gay within monzygotic twins) looks like my assumption B (see my post from Nov 4th) might actually be close to reality.

However, I do not claim to really have an overview on the available data in this field.

So yes, I think, you might have a DNA "error".

(if you really insist in calling it "error". But see also what I have written, why it also seems to be something useful, since 4% is definitely too high.)

[Jens]

Small correction of my thoughts to scetch one a bit more likely scenario (for most of the cases of gay men):

 

- There might be a regulation system changing the "female brain" (seem to be the default) to a "male brain". This is probably done very early (before or after birth) and can only happen in a certain point of time (after that the "male brain" genes cannot be activated any more).

- "female brain" also means beeing attracted by men and "male brain" means beeing attracted by women (hard coded -- no choice).

- This probably involves multiple loci on the DNA, since long RNAs (not visible as genes) and proteins probably are involved (like e.g. for X chromosome inactivation). This makes it more difficult to trace genetically.

- There are variants of those loci (RNA and protein) which together mean that the switch to "male brain" does not work in 100% of the cases but more or less randomly take place or not (in the critical time frame).

- The relative frequence of those variants might actually be a result of evolution (equilibrium between disadvantage of having no children and advantage of group selection -- see my post Nov 4th). With this regards it is no "error" but a feature.

 

This scenario explains:

- its heritable but only with 50% in homozygotic twins

- the heritage pattern is complex and no obvious "gay gene" can be found.

- most homosexual men say that they have always been like this -- clearly before puberty -- and never made a choice.

- Of course a "female brain" in a male body with male hormon levels is something different than a "female brain" in a body with femal hormone levels, but most gay men also have other behaviour which differs them from heterosexual men -- not only by beeing attracted by the same sex. So it is not the imprinting process alone (if there is really any).

- the high percentage of estimated homosexuality.

 

Of course there are probably many other scenarios which can also explain the facts. (I have not studied the literature about it. I just combine what was written here before)

 

...and if a long RNA is part of it, they are not detectable as genes and easily to be overseen as supposed "junk DNA"...

 

 

[overtone]

That a gay male has a more feminine, feminized, or female-altered brain than a straight male should not be assumed. There is very little evidence of that, and most of it barely reasonable much less rigorous.

 

We have less dubious examples of female-identified or apparently feminized brains in male bodies, a condition sometimes treated by major surgery on the misfit body, and by all professional accounts these men are not gay - they are female, and either lesbian and straight as women are rather than as men are.

[overtone]

Side note: we have many examples of sexual orientation - even physiology - depending on environmental and developmental influences, genetically poised to take advantage of environmental cues.

 

Turtles and other reptiles are often sex-determined by the temperature regime experienced by the incubating egg, for example; many species of fish change sex when they get bigger or otherwise rise in the dominance hierarchy (usually from male to female). Their sexual behavior, "orientation", develops or changes in synchrony.

 

This is normal, natural, and not a choice, for turtles etc.

[Jens]

That a gay male has a more feminine, feminized, or female-altered brain than a straight male should not be assumed. There is very little evidence of that, and most of it barely reasonable much less rigorous.

 

O.k. I am really no expert on this topic and have not read enough scientific literature about it.

My argumentation was just founded on my personal contacts to gay men and what I have read in some books written by gay men about gay men. --> leading to my personal opinion that at least the majority of gay men are not just exactly like heterosexual men with the only difference that they are attracted by men instead of women. The difference really seems to be more than that. However, assuming out of this a "female" brain in a male body is probably too simplistic.

[CharonY]

I remember that a few papers (PNAS and Plos IIRC) analysed cerebral structures of homo- and heterosexual males and females as well as transsexuals using imaging techniques such as MRI and PET.

That study revealed that overall patterns are closer to their biological gender also there were certain regions (forgot which) which were slightly different. The other study however, showed that there appears to be differences in the amygdala connectivity and and volumes of the cerebral hemispheres. In these cases the homosexual individuals showed similarities to their hetereosexual counterparts with the same sex-partner preference.

 

I would be careful to use oversimplifications such as male or female brain as these classifications tend to mask important details. This is especially true when extrapolations of the molecular origins are being made (sorry, this is kind of a professional pet-peeve of mine).

[vipermk]

There is no terrorist gene, there is no ice cream gene, there is no rock and roll gene so how in the crap can you say there is gay gene!