Michele Bachmann

[Moontanman]

[JohnB]

40 years ago he would have been saying the same thing about communists in the West.

 

The funny thing is that the Liberals were wrong back then, there really were "Reds under the bed", weren't there?

 

I mean just because an organisations stated goal is to undermine and destroy something is obviously no proof that they intend to do it.

 

He asked if you could find 5 dumber Americans......No, but I was watching one.

[Moontanman]

40 years ago he would have been saying the same thing about communists in the West.

 

"she" not he...

 

The funny thing is that the Liberals were wrong back then, there really were "Reds under the bed", weren't there?

 

No there weren't... that is why McCarthyism is derided to this day...

 

I mean just because an organisations stated goal is to undermine and destroy something is obviously no proof that they intend to do it.

 

It is not proof that they are under every rock either...

 

He asked if you could find 5 dumber Americans......No, but I was watching one.

 

I wonder about the watcher, come on JohnB, does being a conservative really mean you have to agree with every batshit crazy conservative that stands up and shouts nonsense? I damn sure do not agree with all progressive ideas and neither does the guy who you seem to deride so much, maybe you should watch a few more TYT reports and see they don't worship and the alter of every liberal idea that comes down the pike....

[John Cuthber]

40 years ago he would have been saying the same thing about communists in the West.

 

The funny thing is that the Liberals were wrong back then, there really were "Reds under the bed", weren't there?

 

I mean just because an organisations stated goal is to undermine and destroy something is obviously no proof that they intend to do it.

 

He asked if you could find 5 dumber Americans......No, but I was watching one.

Who were the prominent communists in the West back in the early 1970s?

It's a bit befor emy time so I can't remember.

If 20 years of McCarthyism and it's successors hadn't found them, how likely is it that the woman in the video has done so now?

Just because it's their stated goal doesn't mean that they are well on the way to achieving it (or that they ever will).

[Joatmon]

Who were the prominent communists in the West back in the early 1970s?......................

 

There was one man many English people thought was an American film star, but was probably English, who was seriously considered a communist risk by Americans.

I remember his films well, but don't remember being threatened by him . I refer to Charlie Chaplin.

 

"During the era of McCarthyism, Chaplin was accused of "un-American activities" as a suspected communist. J. Edgar Hoover, who had instructed the FBI to keep extensive secret files on him, tried to end his United States residency. FBI pressure on Chaplin grew after his 1942 campaign for a second European front in the war "

 

http://en.wikipedia....Charlie_Chaplin

Edited July 12, 2012 by Joatmon

[Moontanman]

The really sad thing is that conservatives have embraced people like Michele Bachmann, she serves on the house intelligence committee, she gives stupidity a bad name, she couldn't find her ass in the dark with both hands and a flashlight.

 

I am not a died in the wool progressive or anything else, I consistently look at both sides looking for the best ideas but in recent years, decades really, but most definitely in recent years conservatives seem to be embracing the absolute most stupid people they can find, yes I said stupid, not ignorant but stupid, stunningly stupid.

 

Ronald Reagan, who they nearly deify, and who wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer to start with, but he was not stupid, he must be spinning at about 10,000 rpm these days, the rumble must be deafening... at least 6.0 on the Richter scale...

 

In an effort to embrace their right wing religious base they have not only allowed stupid to rule the roost they make no effort to even try and lead these people away from stupid, in fact they tout stupid like it is the breath of life. I honestly can't see how anyone with any intelligence what so ever could really vote for such a person but since she believes in Jesus and YEC she must be superior, yes superior, to a rock, no a rock is just a rock, she is willfully dumber than a rock, a rock has no choice...

[rigney]

The really sad thing is that conservatives have embraced people like Michele Bachmann, she serves on the house intelligence committee, she gives stupidity a bad name, she couldn't find her ass in the dark with both hands and a flashlight.

 

I am not a died in the wool progressive or anything else, I consistently look at both sides looking for the best ideas but in recent years, decades really, but most definitely in recent years conservatives seem to be embracing the absolute most stupid people they can find, yes I said stupid, not ignorant but stupid, stunningly stupid.

 

Ronald Reagan, who they nearly deify, and who wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer to start with, but he was not stupid, he must be spinning at about 10,000 rpm these days, the rumble must be deafening... at least 6.0 on the Richter scale...

 

In an effort to embrace their right wing religious base they have not only allowed stupid to rule the roost they make no effort to even try and lead these people away from stupid, in fact they tout stupid like it is the breath of life. I honestly can't see how anyone with any intelligence what so ever could really vote for such a person but since she believes in Jesus and YEC she must be superior, yes superior, to a rock, no a rock is just a rock, she is willfully dumber than a rock, a rock has no choice...

At best, this tirade is pitiful! Edited July 12, 2012 by rigney

[Moontanman]

At best, this tirade is pitiful!

 

 

but none the less quite accurate...

[JohnB]

"she" not he...

 

Dopey from TYT looks like a male to me. My point was that 40 years ago if somebody was warning about communism he would have been deriding them for it and claiming it was all a fantasy.

 

No there weren't... that is why McCarthyism is derided to this day...

 

Well lucky you, but I'll bet you are wrong. We found out after the fall of communism that yes there were. Organisations and people, quite often influential university lecturers, were in the direct pay of Moscow. University student Unions were recieving monies and I' just so certain that the Russians were doing it out of the pure goodness of their hearts and wanted nothing in return. Groups were passably well funded and very well organised. It would be rather odd if Moscow was funding Australians and not some American groups as well.

 

It is not proof that they are under every rock either...

 

No it's not. But only a fool would think that they don't mean what they say.

 

I wonder about the watcher, come on JohnB, does being a conservative really mean you have to agree with every batshit crazy conservative that stands up and shouts nonsense? I damn sure do not agree with all progressive ideas and neither does the guy who you seem to deride so much, maybe you should watch a few more TYT reports and see they don't worship and the alter of every liberal idea that comes down the pike....

 

I don't have to agree with every batshit crazy idea, but is she batshit crazy? Is there no part of the Muslim Brotherhood that wants to do exactly what she says? If there is no part then she's crazy, if there is then she is at least partly correct and therefore not crazy. That was the only point I was getting at.

 

As to TYT themselves, they are possibly the worst example of American culture I've ever seen. They expect and openly state that the rest of the world should live their lives in such a way as to not offend American sensibilities. With a complete lack of understanding about cultural differences they will label entire nations with the offensive tag of "racist" even after things have been explained to them. The guy is an opinionated, self absorbed moron with delusions of adequacy.

 

It has nothing to do with them being progressive either, Beck is just as monumentally stupid. I simply dislike the pundits with their overwhelming belief in their own rightousness and thank the universe every day that Americans have had more luck exporting "The Daily Show" than your rediculous pundits. They're the political version of the televangelist and do nothing but make my fists itch. (Except for the chick that used to be on TYT as cohost. Firstly a man never hits a woman and secondly even though she was quite braindead she was decorative. )

 

PS. I kind of liked the rant. Inventive insults are always fun to read. I admit I've always preferred the one "Couldn't find their arse if they were sitting on their hands" and "Couldn't find reality with a Ouija board and a Star Map".

 

@John. They didn't have to be prominent, just influential. And ignoring someones stated goal until they well on the way to achieving it is probably folly at best. If their stated goal is opposed to what you want, then isn't it better to stop it well before that point? I'm always mindful that my copy of "Mein Kampf" was published in New York in 1936 by a group of Americans who tried to warn their countrymen about what was happening in Europe. Nobody believed them either.

Edited July 13, 2012 by JohnB

[randomc]

Muslims just wants us to become them, though, they don't actually want to destroy anything. With christianity dead in Europe maybe Islam is the best thing for us... people need moral authority, and it seems to me that that moral authority shouldn't be in the hands of the state. Wasn't that why church and state were seperated in the first place? To disseminate power? Isn't that the basic function of democracy, to disseminate power? In the abscence of any other moral authority islam will do. Islam is just christianity 2.0 anyway.

Edited July 13, 2012 by randomc

[John Cuthber]

 

 

@John. They didn't have to be prominent, just influential.

Actually, I didn't ask if they were influential: I asked who they were.

Name names.

 

 

 

@John. They didn't have to be prominent, just influential.

Actually, I didn't ask if they were influential: I asked who they were.

Name names.

 

More interestingly, if there were all these "influential" left wingers, how come the USA has two right wing parties?

Could it be anything to do with the likes of Fox news and their right wing bat-shit crazy ideas like Obama is a Moslem and not even American?

 

Do you think that maybe the media are actually a lot more "influential" then a bunch of university lecturers.

Face it: at best the left wing didn't have any significant influence in the USA and any claims to the contrary are "bogey men" stories.

[Moontanman]

Dopey from TYT looks like a male to me. My point was that 40 years ago if somebody was warning about communism he would have been deriding them for it and claiming it was all a fantasy.

 

 

 

Well lucky you, but I'll bet you are wrong. We found out after the fall of communism that yes there were. Organisations and people, quite often influential university lecturers, were in the direct pay of Moscow. University student Unions were recieving monies and I' just so certain that the Russians were doing it out of the pure goodness of their hearts and wanted nothing in return. Groups were passably well funded and very well organised. It would be rather odd if Moscow was funding Australians and not some American groups as well.

 

 

 

No it's not. But only a fool would think that they don't mean what they say.

 

 

 

I don't have to agree with every batshit crazy idea, but is she batshit crazy? Is there no part of the Muslim Brotherhood that wants to do exactly what she says? If there is no part then she's crazy, if there is then she is at least partly correct and therefore not crazy. That was the only point I was getting at.

 

As to TYT themselves, they are possibly the worst example of American culture I've ever seen. They expect and openly state that the rest of the world should live their lives in such a way as to not offend American sensibilities. With a complete lack of understanding about cultural differences they will label entire nations with the offensive tag of "racist" even after things have been explained to them. The guy is an opinionated, self absorbed moron with delusions of adequacy.

 

It has nothing to do with them being progressive either, Beck is just as monumentally stupid. I simply dislike the pundits with their overwhelming belief in their own rightousness and thank the universe every day that Americans have had more luck exporting "The Daily Show" than your rediculous pundits. They're the political version of the televangelist and do nothing but make my fists itch. (Except for the chick that used to be on TYT as cohost. Firstly a man never hits a woman and secondly even though she was quite braindead she was decorative. )

 

PS. I kind of liked the rant. Inventive insults are always fun to read. I admit I've always preferred the one "Couldn't find their arse if they were sitting on their hands" and "Couldn't find reality with a Ouija board and a Star Map".

 

@John. They didn't have to be prominent, just influential. And ignoring someones stated goal until they well on the way to achieving it is probably folly at best. If their stated goal is opposed to what you want, then isn't it better to stop it well before that point? I'm always mindful that my copy of "Mein Kampf" was published in New York in 1936 by a group of Americans who tried to warn their countrymen about what was happening in Europe. Nobody believed them either.

 

 

John, i am really amazed, I expected quite a bit better from you, the argument here is not if the Muslim brotherhood or who ever is out to get us, I am quite sure there are more groups out to get us than we can both count on our toes and fingers and by unzipping both our flys...

 

The stupid woman claimed they have "deeply penetrated" our government and are taking over from with in, this is the dumbest statement I have heard in quite some time and if it was true Michele Bachmann is a complete dumb ass for making it public before having some evidence of who they are in our government.

 

If it is true, by tipping her hand before knowing who they are, she has made them if anything doubly difficult to find, god what a dumb ass thing to say...

[JohnB]

John, I never said it was only Americans.

 

Dr Jim Cairns Deputy head of the Australian Labour Party.

Katharine Susannah Prichard, Judah Waten, Frank Hardy, Eric Lambert and Alan Marshall. Novellists

Any officeholder of the "World Peace Council"

Office holders of a number of these front organisations.

 

We could look at the Venona files and intercepts from the 1940s onward.

Some 200 individual Americans are named.

Over 200 named or covernamed persons found in the VENONA translations, persons then present in the U.S., are claimed by the KGB and the GRU in their messages as their clandestine assets or contacts.

 

That should do as a start.

 

The Moynihan Commission on Government Secrecy released its report on March 3rd 1997 and found

But for every accusation there was a denial. ... For all who could agree there were Communists in government, there were as many who saw the Government as contriving fantastic accusations against innocent persons. A balanced history of this period is now beginning to appear; the VENONA messages will surely supply a great cache of facts to bring the matter to some closure....

The first fact is that a significant Communist conspiracy was in place in Washington, New York, and Los Angeles, but in the main those involved systematically denied their involvement.

 

Hayden Peake, curator of the Central Intelligence Agency’s Historical Intelligence Collection has a page of book reviews that might enlighten you. (Or at least be interesting reading.)

 

I hate to break it to you, but Mc Carthy had it sort of right, but his methods in following the idea made him as bad as those he sought to find. All it took was the opening of the KGB files. And the Venona decrypts.

 

To again quote Peake; "Breaking the Codes should put a full stop to the efforts of the professional-historian doubters from Down Under to vindicate their communist colleagues from charges of espionage. It can no longer be denied; the Venona decrypts exist, and they are hard evidence." Many of those colleagues of course worked in Universities which by an absolutely amazing coincidence is where most left wing organisations have done their recruiting. Can you join the dots yet? Or shall I get a crayon?

 

Moontanman, it depends how it's done "from within" does it not? The idea has been pushed that people have some sort of right to "not be offended". How many people are cancelling things and not saying things just in case they offend someone? These attitudes have "deeply penetrated" both our nations have they not?

 

If you read the links above you'll find that the communists had infact been penetrating your government since about 1942. By your logic of waiting the fact of this penetration shouldn't have been released until 1997 with the Moynihan report? If not then, when should someone sound an alarm if they think something is wrong?

 

Note also that in the interview played she is asking for a Justice Dept investigation to see if the claims are true. Why is this a problem?

Edited July 13, 2012 by JohnB

[Moontanman]

Many of those colleagues of course worked in Universities which by an absolutely amazing coincidence is where most left wing organisations have done their recruiting. Can you join the dots yet? Or shall I get a crayon?

 

I see, so right wing is good left wing is bad? We can have right wing organizations but left wing cannot be allowed to exist... yes that sounds about right...

 

Moontanman, it depends how it's done "from within" does it not? The idea has been pushed that people have some sort of right to "not be offended". How many people are cancelling things and not saying things just in case they offend someone? These attitudes have "deeply penetrated" both our nations have they not?

 

This simply has no bearing on this subject and is a highly conflated version of reality...

 

If you read the links above you'll find that the communists had infact been penetrating your government since about 1942. By your logic of waiting the fact of this penetration shouldn't have been released until 1997 with the Moynihan report? If not then, when should someone sound an alarm if they think something is wrong?

 

McCarthyism was witch hunt, I am quite sure there were communists present at that time, some were operating openly and under our constitution they should have had that right. McCarthyism ruined the lives and careers of innocent people, they conflated the danger of communism and used the resulting fear for their own political gain. Michele Bachmann is doing the exact same thing, the Muslim Brotherhood has not deep penetrated our government, if she had evidence of that it should have been presented secretly to the justice department not announced on the radio..

 

I am just as concerened that fundamentalist Christianity has "deeply penetrated" our government, they are doing their best to destroy us from with in, turn our secular government into a theocracy, make religion law, take away the basic rights of anyone who is not following Jesus the way they think he should be followed, they are the clear and present danger and Michele Bachmann is one of them. Crying wolf while she tears down the gates to let the hoards in to destroy us from with in...

 

It's happening at the state level all over the country, my home state just amended the constitution to disenfranchise homosexuals and even male/female couples who are living together... Religion cannot be allowed to become the law of the land no matter how much you love Jesus, Allah, Yahweh, or truly believe the earth is 6,000 years and Noah's Ark actually happened...

 

Note also that in the interview played she is asking for a Justice Dept investigation to see if the claims are true. Why is this a problem?

 

You don't announce this publicly if you are serious, you don't want to tip your had to the very people you are looking for, she did it for no reason other than political gain, she wanted to spread fear among her constituents so she could garner votes, no other reason...

 

Muslims just wants us to become them, though, they don't actually want to destroy anything. With christianity dead in Europe maybe Islam is the best thing for us... people need moral authority, and it seems to me that that moral authority shouldn't be in the hands of the state.

 

We need religion for a moral authority? Really? Really!?

 

Wasn't that why church and state were seperated in the first place? To disseminate power? Isn't that the basic function of democracy, to disseminate power? In the abscence of any other moral authority islam will do. Islam is just christianity 2.0 anyway.

 

If Islam would allow it's self to gelded then I could tolerate them, Christianity was just as bad as Islam in promoting middle age "morality" before it was gelded by the enlightenment, personally I don't want to see someones head cut off because he insults Islam, it happens in the middle east at the drop of the least doubt that allah is great, no other point of view is allowed under threat of death. Someone who just wants to stop being Muslim is killed, atheists are dead meat if found. Religion needs to die not be allowed to drag civilization back down the rat hole of fundamentalism... Islam did that with the Muslim civilization and they have yet to recover, in fact they are still trying to drag us down as we speak...

 

 

BTW JohnB, is that video right wing or left wing, I'm not really sure...

Edited July 13, 2012 by Moontanman

[JohnB]

I see, so right wing is good left wing is bad? We can have right wing organizations but left wing cannot be allowed to exist... yes that sounds about right...

 

Don't put words into my mouth. The simple fact is that left wing ideology is more prevelent on campus. this is actually quite logical since that is where students are (or should be) being taught to question and challenge the "old regime". That automatically puts you on the "progressive" side. Certain persons in academia used this fact to introduce people to communist front organisations and to instill particular "ways of thought" that would make them useful or compliant later. White supremacy groups probably did the same thing for those on the right.

 

The point that you are trying to avoid is that many of the left wing organisations were funded and controlled by Moscow at a time that it was ultimately opposed to everything the USA stood for. Many who worked and organised those left wing groups were traitors, there is no other word for it. They were in the pay of and doing the bidding of a foreign power during a "Cold" war. And most of those traitors came from the left.

 

McCarthyism was witch hunt, I am quite sure there were communists present at that time, some were operating openly and under our constitution they should have had that right.

 

The problem with trying to defend a false history is that you get caught up in the lies. At the time of McCarthy, if "some" of the communist were operating openly then at least "some" were not. Yet you said earlier WRT "Reds under the bed"

No there weren't... that is why McCarthyism is derided to this day...

 

So some were in the open and some weren't, but none of them were hidden. Riiiiiight. As I said above, the tactics McCarthy used were wrong and he became as bad as those he sought to expose. But just because it was a witch hunt doesn't mean that there weren't witches that needed hunting. What I find interesting about that period of history is that people from the political left just can't grasp the reality that many of those they admired were working to destroy their own people. It sucks to realise that you had most of the traitors, but honesty demands that this simple fact be faced and accepted.

 

So you deride McCarthy and do the same thing to Bachman, anything but face the fact that McCarthy was right and there were traitors and they were from the left. It's just so much easier to deride and make fun of the other side than to face the ugly truth of the dark past of your own side.

 

BTW we had a referendum on whether the Communist Party should be outlawed in Australia in 1951. The law was defeated as it was viewed that Communists had the same right to have stupid ideas as everybody else did.

 

This simply has no bearing on this subject and is a highly conflated version of reality...

 

Actually it does have a bearing. Every person who doesn't think the mores and customs of his homeland are worth getting excited about and defending is one less person to oppose an agenda. This is how "subversion" works, its purpose is to lessen resistance to the agenda being pushed.

 

I am just as concerened that fundamentalist Christianity has "deeply penetrated" our government, they are doing their best to destroy us from with in, turn our secular government into a theocracy, make religion law, take away the basic rights of anyone who is not following Jesus the way they think he should be followed, they are the clear and present danger and Michele Bachmann is one of them. Crying wolf while she tears down the gates to let the hoards in to destroy us from with in...

 

Almost Bingo. Bachman might be right or could be wrong. Possibly to early to tell, but you're on the right track. The problem isn't the Muslim Brotherhood or the YEC Christians. The problem is primitive religious fanatics attempting to gain control over the State. Whether Muslims or Christians succeed, the sh*t will be very deep. Just don't be so busy watching the Christians that somebody else slips in the back door. Maybe since "marriage" isn't owned by religion the definition should be expanded and polygamy allowed. Maybe the courts should show more understanding for cultural differences and "culturally appropriate" punishments be given rather than just the usual ones. These "cultural" punishments would of course be vetted by and with the advice of, a representative of the community involved. Blow it, let's just have Sharia courts for the Muslim communities.

 

Don't laugh, there are Muslim groups in Australia pushing for exactly that.

 

There is also an added impetus for the Muslim groups and it was spelt out in the vid you linked to. The only reason that Islam exists at all is because the West allows it to so exist. If it came to all out religious war, Islam would be a memory and they know it. The only way they can even pretend to be on some sort of par with the West is for them to get some very big bombs as well. But once they do, it's an odds on bet that they would use them, at least once. We did.

 

BTW, I realise your question about the vid was tongue in cheek, but from an Aussie perspective it is right wing. Our left wing would be way too busy explaining why it was all our fault that these primitives were killing cartoonists and if we just stopped antagonising them then there would be peace. You guys got the religious right and we got the bat sh*t crazy looney left. As I understand it even European socialists view our very left wing as "extreme".

[Moontanman]

Don't put words into my mouth. The simple fact is that left wing ideology is more prevelent on campus. this is actually quite logical since that is where students are (or should be) being taught to question and challenge the "old regime". That automatically puts you on the "progressive" side. Certain persons in academia used this fact to introduce people to communist front organisations and to instill particular "ways of thought" that would make them useful or compliant later. White supremacy groups probably did the same thing for those on the right.

 

I notice that you didn't term white supremacy as traitors...

 

The point that you are trying to avoid is that many of the left wing organisations were funded and controlled by Moscow at a time that it was ultimately opposed to everything the USA stood for. Many who worked and organised those left wing groups were traitors, there is no other word for it. They were in the pay of and doing the bidding of a foreign power during a "Cold" war. And most of those traitors came from the left.

 

Being progressive and communist are not synonymous no matter how much you want them to be...

 

 

 

The problem with trying to defend a false history is that you get caught up in the lies. At the time of McCarthy, if "some" of the communist were operating openly then at least "some" were not. Yet you said earlier WRT "Reds under the bed"

 

 

So some were in the open and some weren't, but none of them were hidden. Riiiiiight. As I said above, the tactics McCarthy used were wrong and he became as bad as those he sought to expose. But just because it was a witch hunt doesn't mean that there weren't witches that needed hunting. What I find interesting about that period of history is that people from the political left just can't grasp the reality that many of those they admired were working to destroy their own people. It sucks to realise that you had most of the traitors, but honesty demands that this simple fact be faced and accepted.

 

Most Progressives are traitors? Most Conservatives are not? come on...

 

So you deride McCarthy and do the same thing to Bachman, anything but face the fact that McCarthy was right and there were traitors and they were from the left. It's just so much easier to deride and make fun of the other side than to face the ugly truth of the dark past of your own side.

 

You really have yet to demonstrate that is true, traitors seems to be mostly defined by the right, the right cries traitors when someone farts in front of them... by definition any one who disagrees with the right are traitors...

 

BTW we had a referendum on whether the Communist Party should be outlawed in Australia in 1951. The law was defeated as it was viewed that Communists had the same right to have stupid ideas as everybody else did.

 

All except for those secrete ones?

 

 

Actually it does have a bearing. Every person who doesn't think the mores and customs of his homeland are worth getting excited about and defending is one less person to oppose an agenda. This is how "subversion" works, its purpose is to lessen resistance to the agenda being pushed.

 

it's called freedom, it matters no matter who is pushing an agenda...

 

Almost Bingo. Bachman might be right or could be wrong. Possibly to early to tell, but you're on the right track. The problem isn't the Muslim Brotherhood or the YEC Christians. The problem is primitive religious fanatics attempting to gain control over the State. Whether Muslims or Christians succeed, the sh*t will be very deep. Just don't be so busy watching the Christians that somebody else slips in the back door.

 

I think they are all batshitcrazy...

 

Maybe since "marriage" isn't owned by religion the definition should be expanded and polygamy allowed.

 

When was polygamy brought into this?

 

Maybe the courts should show more understanding for cultural differences and "culturally appropriate" punishments be given rather than just the usual ones. These "cultural" punishments would of course be vetted by and with the advice of, a representative of the community involved. Blow it, let's just have Sharia courts for the Muslim communities.

 

Don't laugh, there are Muslim groups in Australia pushing for exactly that.

 

They can push it all they want but it's not the way our constitution works and I would fight it tooth and toe nail... rule of law only works if everyone is subject to the same law...

 

There is also an added impetus for the Muslim groups and it was spelt out in the vid you linked to. The only reason that Islam exists at all is because the West allows it to so exist. If it came to all out religious war, Islam would be a memory and they know it. The only way they can even pretend to be on some sort of par with the West is for them to get some very big bombs as well. But once they do, it's an odds on bet that they would use them, at least once. We did.

 

This i agree with...

 

BTW, I realise your question about the vid was tongue in cheek, but from an Aussie perspective it is right wing. Our left wing would be way too busy explaining why it was all our fault that these primitives were killing cartoonists and if we just stopped antagonising them then there would be peace. You guys got the religious right and we got the bat sh*t crazy looney left. As I understand it even European socialists view our very left wing as "extreme".

 

Damn I am right wing in Australia... wow!

[John Cuthber]

"John, I never said it was only Americans."

Nor did I but it is the subject of the OP.

 

 

 

"The idea has been pushed that people have some sort of right to "not be offended". How many people are cancelling things and not saying things just in case they offend someone? These attitudes have "deeply penetrated" both our nations have they not?"

 

It has indeed.

Can we please chuck all the religious nutters out of politics please.

 

Also I apologise for failing to make myself clear. It's not hard to find a couple of hundred left wingers out of a population of 300 million.

What I should have asked for was the names of any who have actually done any harm.

Now I grant you that giving nuclear secrets to the Russians was, at the very best, clearly illegal.

So that's about half a dozen people in total.

Where's this conspiracy (Moslem or communist- take your pick)?

 

 

"Universities which by an absolutely amazing coincidence is where most left wing organisations have done their recruiting"

Where the hell else would they recruit?

People make up their minds politically at about the same age as they hit university.

It is, of course, where right wing organisations recruit too- but presumably that doesn't trouble you.

 

Also, please don't quote bits from conservapedia which cite dead links if you want to be taken seriously.

[Moontanman]

As to TYT themselves, they are possibly the worst example of American culture I've ever seen. They expect and openly state that the rest of the world should live their lives in such a way as to not offend American sensibilities. With a complete lack of understanding about cultural differences they will label entire nations with the offensive tag of "racist" even after things have been explained to them. The guy is an opinionated, self absorbed moron with delusions of adequacy.

 

We are Americans, lower your self respect and surrender your culture, resistance is futile, you will be assimilated...

[padren]

There are two seperate issues in my opinion with both Bachmann and McCarthy:

 

1) The dark language of spooky scary bad people bent on destroying the country is clearly directed at impacting popular opinion, without adding a single bloody piece of information. I don't care how legitimate or not any given issue is: fear mongering is fear mongering - pure and simple.

 

Real legitimate issues (including any real commies or radical Muslims illegally influencing our society) can and should be dealt with - without fear mongering.

 

Is that too much to ask?

 

2) There is less interest in isolating and prosecuting any genuine threats than in painting (with the widest possible brush) any and all political opponents as complicit either through ignorance or through willful intent (due to "a general hatred of 'Merican Freedumbs" etc) which runs entirely counter to the American ideal of free assembly and association.

 

 

If we want to bring up McCarthy style tactics - why don't we root out the Wall Street agents that have very clearly, publicly and shamelessly infiltrated all levels of our government? Those bastards have penetrated all levels of our economy to the depth that I doubt I'll ever walk in a straight line again - and they are all unpunished - but you want me to be afraid of Muslims now?

 

 

Please - show an example of how our rights or way of life could be in anyway subverted through such dastardly infiltrations. If someone leaks classified material we have processes for prosecuting that, and I'd be willing to bet both China and Russia expend way more with way better results to that end than all the Islamic nations of the world combined.

 

 

Lastly, I have no idea who these "politically correct types" that pretend they have a right to not be offended are... but I recall a bunch of them freaking out over a Mosque or rec center or something in New York being built... wait, nope those were rugged thick skinned conservatives who got all offended. Maybe I am thinking of those crazy liberals who felt offended because even though it didn't affect them, some dudes wanted to get married and... no wait - those were conservatives again.

 

I know - it's those libbies who insist that they'll be offended if you don't use the Christian-friendly phrase "Merry Christmas" during the holidays, because hearing a non-Christian use a phrase like "Happy Holidays" is so very politically incorrect... wait, who are the rugged individualist again, and who are the thin skinned whiners that take offense to everything?

 

It's almost as if fear mongering and generalized debasement of entire swaths of society with no regard for the precision of the brushstrokes results in something less than productive and balanced policy towards genuine threats.

 

I guess we need to root out all the McCarthyists! They are infiltrating the government!

[JohnB]

John, part of this is the difference between nations.

 

It has indeed.

Can we please chuck all the religious nutters out of politics please.

 

Down here it isn't the religious nutters, it's the political left demanding that the "Merry Christmas" and Easter things get dumped "in case" they offend somebody. The thing is that every time I've heard a Muslim or anybody else actually being asked about it they just don't care.

 

It is, of course, where right wing organisations recruit too- but presumably that doesn't trouble you.

 

I can only presume that both you and Moontanman are being deliberately obtuse. I have no problem with any organisation recruiting in Universities, unless their purpose is traitorous. We were talking about left wing organisations that recruited in Universities and recieved funding and direction from a foreign power. Why you both are trying to muddy the water by bringing other groups in I have no idea.

 

Also, please don't quote bits from conservapedia which cite dead links if you want to be taken seriously.

 

That was one link out of three, which I chose just to save you some time. However since you asked for it;

http://www.nsa.gov/applications/search/index.cfm?q=venona

 

Knock yourself out reading God knows how many documents to get all the names. Unless the NSA isn't a good enough reference for you. Sheesh.

 

Moontanman;

I notice that you didn't term white supremacy as traitors...

 

AFAIK they weren't in the pay of foreign powers. If they were, then they were traitors, if not then they are just idiots. You really can't be this stupid, so I really can't see what you are trying to do. Unless it's just to avoid the reality of what or who was behind many left wing groups.

 

Being progressive and communist are not synonymous no matter how much you want them to be...

 

Again trying to put words into my mouth. Today we can truthfully say that the majority of terrorists are Muslim, but that does not make the majority of Muslims terrorists. While not all of the left (or progressives, or even communists) are traitors, the vast majority of the traitors were from the left. Deal with that reality. I cannot say it more clearly than this.

 

Most Progressives are traitors? Most Conservatives are not? come on...

 

See above. Most traitors were progressives, not the other way around.

 

You really have yet to demonstrate that is true, traitors seems to be mostly defined by the right, the right cries traitors when someone farts in front of them... by definition any one who disagrees with the right are traitors...

 

Bullshit. a traitor is defined by the dictionary;

One who violates his allegiance and betrays his country; one guilty of treason; one who, in breach of trust, delivers his country to an enemy, or yields up any fort or place intrusted to his defense, or surrenders an army or body of troops to the enemy, unless when vanquished; also, one who takes arms and levies war against his country; or one who aids an enemy in conquering his country. See Treason.

 

So cut it with the "defined by the right" crap. At the height of the Cold War people who were in the pay of a foreign power were active in attempts to undermine the US government. That act makes them traitors. If you disagree then what freaking definition do you want to use?

 

All except for those secrete ones?

 

You were the one who claimed that there were no secret ones. I find it enlightening that even after being shown that this is incorrect you can't admit to being wrong.

 

it's called freedom, it matters no matter who is pushing an agenda...

 

Sorry, what? I don't understand what you mean here.

 

I think they are all batshitcrazy...

 

On this we are agreed.

 

When was polygamy brought into this?

They can push it all they want but it's not the way our constitution works and I would fight it tooth and toe nail... rule of law only works if everyone is subject to the same law...

 

That's why parsing sentences isn't a great idea. It was just an example of how things can slide, nothing more. Again there is a difference between nations. In Oz it is the political left that wants different laws for different groups. It came up in connection with the Aboriginal people at first. We have a too high percentage of Aboriginals in jail and the idea was put forward to give them the choice between "Traditional" law or "White Mans" law to make justice more culturally relevent. From there it isn't a large step for other groups to start wanting "culturally relevent" justice for themselves. Strangely enough the right wing didn't back these ideas and was immediately attacked as "White Supremacist" and "Racist".

 

Our Constitution works differently to yours and our batshit crazy left really are batshit crazy.

 

The best current example I can think of is that areas of the left down here want two changes made to our Constitution. Firstly they want all powers granted to Parliament to make laws for "racial" groups removed. (This was put in so that Parliament had the power to make laws especially for the Aboriginal population) So they want that bit removed because anything else is so obviously "racist".

 

Secondly they want a bit added that acknowledges the original inhabitants and grants Parliament the power to make laws especially for Aboriginals.

 

And we on the right are left scratching our heads and going "But, but......". And then getting called racist because we don't support the changes.

 

Damn I am right wing in Australia... wow!

 

Pretty much, yes. I'm a slightly to the right of moderate right winger down here and that makes me roughly a "slightly right of moderate" Democrat in American terms.

 

We are Americans, lower your self respect and surrender your culture, resistance is futile, you will be assimilated...

 

I know that you're joking, TYT wasn't. I first came across them in an argument about a KFC ad that aired in Oz. Yes, they quite literally expected us to make our ads conform to American sensibilities. What an arrogant POS. F*ck him and the horse he rode in on.

[John Cuthber]

"I can only presume that both you and Moontanman are being deliberately obtuse. I have no problem with any organisation recruiting in Universities, unless their purpose is traitorous. We were talking about left wing organisations that recruited in Universities and recieved funding and direction from a foreign power. Why you both are trying to muddy the water by bringing other groups in I have no idea. "

 

Because the universities are also where the traitorous right wing groups recruit.

 

What you actually said was

"Universities which by an absolutely amazing coincidence is where most left wing organisations have done their recruiting"

See how you didn't mention traitorous there?

The implication being that all left wing groups are bad and that there's something evil about them recruiting at universities.

 

Not deliberately obtuse interpretation from Moontanman and me- just poor communication from you. Perhaps you need a sharper crayon.

[Moontanman]

 

Moontanman;

 

 

AFAIK they weren't in the pay of foreign powers. If they were, then they were traitors, if not then they are just idiots. You really can't be this stupid, so I really can't see what you are trying to do. Unless it's just to avoid the reality of what or who was behind many left wing groups.

 

First off since we do not have the same definition of left and right wing this is not a constructive way to debate this idea.

 

 

Again trying to put words into my mouth. Today we can truthfully say that the majority of terrorists are Muslim, but that does not make the majority of Muslims terrorists. While not all of the left (or progressives, or even communists) are traitors, the vast majority of the traitors were from the left. Deal with that reality. I cannot say it more clearly than this.

 

I agree with that, sadly our "right wing" nutters do not seem to understand this...

 

See above. Most traitors were progressives, not the other way around.

 

And my point is that traitors are more likely to be defined by the conservatives, anyone who disagrees with them risks being labeled a traitor. They care not for the dictionary definition...

 

 

 

Bullshit. a traitor is defined by the dictionary;

 

See above

 

 

So cut it with the "defined by the right" crap. At the height of the Cold War people who were in the pay of a foreign power were active in attempts to undermine the US government. That act makes them traitors. If you disagree then what freaking definition do you want to use?

 

Again we are dealing with fundamentally different ideas here. In the US being in the employ of a foreign power has nothing to do with being labeled a traitor... all you have to do is disagree with some part of their ideology and you are a traitor, they tend to make up their own definitions as they go along and generally fail to make that distinction...

 

 

You were the one who claimed that there were no secret ones. I find it enlightening that even after being shown that this is incorrect you can't admit to being wrong.

 

Being secrete in no way determines that you are a traitor or selling out the country, sometimes it just means you have to hide from conservative bastards that want to stop you from undermining their efforts to sell the country out on a huge economic level. making obscene amounts of money selling the country out economically is celebrated making you a tremendous success as a businessman.

 

Trying to secure universal heath care makes you a communist traitor...

 

 

 

Sorry, what? I don't understand what you mean here.

 

Everyone has the freedom to push an agenda, the constitution of the US protects us from people pushing the agenda too far...

 

 

 

On this we are agreed.

 

 

 

 

That's why parsing sentences isn't a great idea. It was just an example of how things can slide, nothing more. Again there is a difference between nations. In Oz it is the political left that wants different laws for different groups. It came up in connection with the Aboriginal people at first. We have a too high percentage of Aboriginals in jail and the idea was put forward to give them the choice between "Traditional" law or "White Mans" law to make justice more culturally relevent. From there it isn't a large step for other groups to start wanting "culturally relevent" justice for themselves. Strangely enough the right wing didn't back these ideas and was immediately attacked as "White Supremacist" and "Racist".

 

Our Constitution works differently to yours and our batshit crazy left really are batshit crazy.

 

The best current example I can think of is that areas of the left down here want two changes made to our Constitution. Firstly they want all powers granted to Parliament to make laws for "racial" groups removed. (This was put in so that Parliament had the power to make laws especially for the Aboriginal population) So they want that bit removed because anything else is so obviously "racist".

 

Secondly they want a bit added that acknowledges the original inhabitants and grants Parliament the power to make laws especially for Aboriginals.

 

And we on the right are left scratching our heads and going "But, but......". And then getting called racist because we don't support the changes.

 

 

 

Pretty much, yes. I'm a slightly to the right of moderate right winger down here and that makes me roughly a "slightly right of moderate" Democrat in American terms.

 

 

 

I know that you're joking, TYT wasn't. I first came across them in an argument about a KFC ad that aired in Oz. Yes, they quite literally expected us to make our ads conform to American sensibilities. What an arrogant POS. F*ck him and the horse he rode in on.

 

 

We are indeed operating on different sides of the world JohnB

Edited July 14, 2012 by Moontanman

[JohnB]

John, as I've repeatedly used terms like "in the pay of a foreign power" or "under the direction of a foreign power" and have at no time commented on left wing groups in general, then yes you are being obtuse. You are deliberately taking comments pertaining to a subset of left wing groups and attempting to say that I'm applying them to all left wing groups.

 

I say to both you and Moontanman that I have at all times used only the dictionary definition of "traitorous". I don't give a pair of fetid dingos kidneys what definitions others use and I expect as a simple matter of courtesy that my words are read as I write them and without implications derived from some useless freaking american extreme right wing agenda.

 

If you want to reply to whatever glen beck or similar would say then go to a forum that he frequents, but at least be honest and reply to what I actually say and not what you infer I said.

 

Because the universities are also where the traitorous right wing groups recruit.

 

Can you name some? I expect that they do exist but I'd like to see some proof that right wing groups exist that take funding and direction from foreign powers.

 

BTW, how are you going with the intercepts? Getting a good list yet?

 

Moontanman;

And my point is that traitors are more likely to be defined by the conservatives, anyone who disagrees with them risks being labeled a traitor. They care not for the dictionary definition...

 

Again we are dealing with fundamentally different ideas here. In the US being in the employ of a foreign power has nothing to do with being labeled a traitor... all you have to do is disagree with some part of their ideology and you are a traitor, they tend to make up their own definitions as they go along and generally fail to make that distinction...

 

As I said above, I think it only common courtesy that my words be read as I write them and not interpreted through the lens of what some american right wing BS artist says. I have repeatedly and specifically used the term "traitorous" to mean organisations that were funded and directed by a foreign power inimical to the West.

 

Bluntly, if you wish to discuss something with me, then discuss it with me and don't try to use my comments as some sort of proxy for american conservatives. I don't care what american conservatives (batshit crazy or otherwise) say and mean, my comments are what I say and mean and I do expect them to be taken as such.

 

Being secrete in no way determines that you are a traitor or selling out the country, sometimes it just means you have to hide from conservative bastards that want to stop you from undermining their efforts to sell the country out on a huge economic level.

 

Quite true, but irrelevent. you said that there weren't "Reds under the bed" the simple truth is that there were. Sorry, but you were wrong.

 

Trying to secure universal heath care makes you a communist traitor...

 

Exactly. And as you may have noticed from threads on that very issue, I'm a "Communist traitor". I'm still trying to work out whether to laugh or be insulted at the american right calling Australia a "Socialist" or "Communist" country. On the one hand it is quite insulting due to our strong anti communist stance but on the other it is so incredibly stupid that you just can't frame an adequate response.

 

Frankly from the outside both sides over there are in deep sh*t. The conservative gene pool is in dire need a large dose of chlorine and the progressives....... Well any bunch that can control the Congress, the Senate and the Presidency and still fails to get its Bills through would have to be the very definition of "useless".

 

We are indeed operating on different sides of the world JohnB

 

Yup. One of the problems with international forums is that we have to keep reminding ourselves that just because someone is from the "left" or "right" they aren't from my "left or right". I know that our left wing are batshit crazy but I live in hope that this is a local phenomena.

 

I just can't shake the idea that your right and our left were fighting each other to be first through the door on the day that "Stupid" was being handed out.

[rigney]

Yup. One of the problems with international forums is that we have to keep reminding ourselves that just because someone is from the "left" or "right" they aren't from my "left or right". I know that our left wing are batshit crazy but I live in hope that this is a local phenomena. I just can't shake the idea that your right and our left were fighting each other to be first through the door on the day that "Stupid" was being handed out.

To show you how our politics work JohnB, take a look at this:

 

Where are the happy trio of: Jim, Tim, and Franklin now?

 

In case you are wondering how their ineptitude at Fannie Mae affected their lives after ruining the dreams of so many others, let me refresh the scenario:

 

Where are Jim, Tim and Franklin? Here's a quick look into the three former Fannie Mae executives who brought down Wall Street.

 

Franklin Raines - was a Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Fannie Mae. Raines was forced to retire from his position with Fannie Mae when auditing discovered severe irregularities in Fannie Mae's accounting activities. Raines left with a "golden parachute valued at $240 Million in benefits. The Government filed suit against Raines when the depth of the accounting scandal became clear.

 

Tim Howard - was the Chief Financial Officer of Fannie Mae. Howard "was a strong internal proponent of using accounting strategies that would ensure a "stable pattern of earnings" at Fannie. Investigations by federal regulators and the c ompany's board of directors since concluded that management did manipulate 1998 earnings to trigger bonuses. Raines and Howard resigned under pressure in late 2004. Howard's Golden Parachute was estimated at $20 Million!

 

Jim Johnson - A former executive at Lehman Brothers and who was later forced from his position as Fannie Mae CEO. Investigators found that Fannie Mae had hidden a substantial amount of Johnson's 1998 compensation from the public, reporting that it was between $6 million and $7 million when it fact it was $21 million." Johnson is currently under investigation for taking illegal loans from Countrywide while serving as CEO of Fannie Mae. Johnson's Golden Parachute was estimated at $28 Million.

WHERE ARE THEY NOW?

 

FRANKLIN RAINES?

Raines works for the Obama Campaign as his Chief Economic Advisor.

 

TIM HOWARD?

Howard is a Chief Economic Advisor to Obama under Franklin Raines.

 

JIM JOHNSON?

Johnson was hired as a Senior Obama Finance Advisor and selected to run Obama's Vice Presidential Search Committee. Yes my friend, many of us here in the states are "batshit" to some degree, and most governments are rotten to some extent, but this one; to the core! As an impartial onlooker, would you say that we are stupid or what?

Edited July 16, 2012 by rigney

[imatfaal]

franklin raines

 

 

 

In later commentary the Washington Post (the original source) described McCain's attempts to connect Obama with Franklin Raines based on their reporting as "a stretch" and said all reporting they did about the matter actually stems from a single conversation a reporter had with Raines in which she recalls Raines said he "had gotten a couple of calls from the Obama campaign". When the reporter queried Raines to the nature of the calls he said "oh, general housing, economy issues".^[/url] Additionally, an email hoax falsely claims Raines was made "Chief Economic Advisor" for the Obama presidential campaign.

 

 

For the others http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/fanniemae.asp