The Post Meat Problem

[zapatos]

http://xkcd.com/285/

Today, the Korowai are one of very few tribes still believed to eat human flesh as a cultural practice.[11][12] It is also still known to be practiced as a ritual and in war in various Melanesian tribes.[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism

[wanabe]

Phi for All,

 

The B12 study. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19552428. Sadly they make you pay to view it entirely, sorry.

 

Sorry, dirt isn't a technical term. Should have said from the (compost or bacteria[dirt]) on the mushroom surface. 7 cups of mushrooms is not a lot to eat in a day nor is 14 nor 28, if your not eating meat. Point is one can get B12 from mushrooms. It builds up in the system so its not a big deal if you only get part of a DV.

Edited August 20, 2012 by wanabe

[imatfaal]

/...

In early 2009, researchers at the University of Western Sydney confirmed that bio-available B12 exists in the skin & flesh of button mushrooms, 5% RDI (per 100g) (28g in 1 OZ).

/...

 

So 100g provides 5pct of your recommended daily intake - so you need 20x that mass, ie 2 kg of button mushrooms. have you ever picked up a mushroon - they are not exactly dense. FYG here is a snap shot of a box of 150g of organic (well obviously) mushrooms

 

 

If you can notice on the right hand side you will see the kilo price - GBP8 per kilogram. So not only do I have to eat 2kg of mushrooms a day - I love mushrooms - but even so. I need to shell out 16 quid a day on them

 

We do this enlargement via chemicals and corn feeding, they will lean out in a few months eating grass. There will be a huge die off yes, but all animals spook and scatter, it's so basic to their defense. Extinction or endangerment: no way Esp. considering rural animals that roam and do encounter wolves/other predators.

 

Whilst the feeding patterns, supplements, and lifestyle do certainly contribute - so do the intensive and active breeding policies that farmers have employed for hundreds of years.

[CaptainPanic]

What is a vegan to do with all of the livestock?

Simple:

 

1. Set them all free.

2. Wait until they starve in winter.

3. Feed them.

4. Do essentially the same as farmers did all along.

[iNow]

We do this enlargement via chemicals and corn feeding, they will lean out in a few months eating grass.

You can continue to assert this all you want, but unfortunately you will be continuing to ignore just how many generations we've selected against self-defense of these creatures and for mutant proportions and docility.

 

There will be a huge die off yes, but all animals spook and scatter, it's so basic to their defense.

This is, I think, where we are failing to connect with one another. I think you are far oversimplifying it, and I think you are a bit too confident that your average steer or chicken knows enough to "scatter" when/if spooked. Besides the fact that most have lived in a caged and isolated environment for their entire lives, and so too did their parents and grandparents (so there was no teaching or nurturing allowing them to understand avoidance of predation), but also their genetics have greatly shifted. A chicken whose breast meat comprises more than 85% of its body weight is hardly fit to fight or flee.

 

Sure, a tiny handful might survive, but the VAST majority are going to die of either starvation or predation. That survival instinct of theirs on which your argument so heavily relies has been largely suppressed and extinguished for generations. That has a big effect for which one must account. Simply doing a bit of hand waving and wishing/hoping/praying it weren't so changes nothing.

[CaptainPanic]

Sure, a tiny handful might survive, but the VAST majority are going to die of either starvation or predation.

 

I do not know where you guys live, but where I am, there are no wild predators larger than a fox. There is nothing (other than humans) that can take down a cow, bull, horse, or even a pig. So, all those animals would simply starve. And rot. Because there are also almost no scavengers (our forest rangers clean up dead animals, rather than letting them be eaten by scavengers).

[iNow]

Hence my inclusion of the either/or clause, showing "starvation" first.

[Phi for All]

The B12 study. http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/19552428. Sadly they make you pay to view it entirely, sorry.

The response link from the article you provided refuted the study, called it's findings into question. That, coupled with the fact that this is not being widely shouted to the whole world, makes me believe the study failed to pass the litmus test of communication and collaboration that is so important in scientific methodology. One could also ask why the test wasn't repeated by anyone else who could filter out the questionable variables and get a count more accurate than 7 to 326 cups.

 

Sorry, dirt isn't a technical term. Should have said from the (compost or bacteria[dirt]) on the mushroom surface.

Good point, but not really supportive of your position. Since we'd be doing away with all the domesticated cows, chickens and pigs, the compost used for mushrooms would hold no animal matter, and therefore no bacteria capable of producing viable B12.

 

7 cups of mushrooms is not a lot to eat in a day nor is 14 nor 28, if your not eating meat. Point is one can get B12 from mushrooms.

Nice try. The real point is, can one get enough B12 from mushrooms for everyone on the planet? You seem to think 28 cups of mushrooms every day isn't a problem, but what if the reality is closer to the average of 159 cups? That's about 8000 calories per day in mushrooms alone.

[John Cuthber]

Much as it might amuse me to watch the vegans collapse due to anaemia, as long as we keep drinking beer we should be OK for vitamin B12.

 

http://www.marmite.com/love/nutrition/nutrition.html

[Phi for All]

Much as it might amuse me to watch the vegans collapse due to anaemia, as long as we keep drinking beer we should be OK for vitamin B12.

 

http://www.marmite.c.../nutrition.html

No one questions that there are synthetic sources that fortify foods through yeasts and cereals with B12. This simply casts doubt on the vegan hypothesis that this is how humans are supposed to eat. The vegan diet wouldn't even have been possible without modern chemistry.

[imatfaal]

No one questions that there are synthetic sources that fortify foods through yeasts and cereals with B12. This simply casts doubt on the vegan hypothesis that this is how humans are supposed to eat. The vegan diet wouldn't even have been possible without modern chemistry.

 

I think (from wiki-ing) that modern beer would not be able to provide the B12 - but a very yeasty and weak version might make a significant contribution. And the more archaeologists find out about ancient man the more they find connections with brewing (I read a pop-sci article that placed the utilisation of grain to make beer as prior that of making bread) - and even into the Victorian era beer was a staple of almost every diet especially the poor. The explanations I have heard on tv programmes is that beer was the simplest method of securing safe drinking water - this seems reasonable but outside my ability to comment accurately. If beer can be a reasonable source then I think it could add to the vegan argument - but even if so, the time period that we have had access to beer is small on evolutionary scales.

[Phi for All]

I think (from wiki-ing) that modern beer would not be able to provide the B12 - but a very yeasty and weak version might make a significant contribution. And the more archaeologists find out about ancient man the more they find connections with brewing (I read a pop-sci article that placed the utilisation of grain to make beer as prior that of making bread) - and even into the Victorian era beer was a staple of almost every diet especially the poor. The explanations I have heard on tv programmes is that beer was the simplest method of securing safe drinking water - this seems reasonable but outside my ability to comment accurately. If beer can be a reasonable source then I think it could add to the vegan argument - but even if so, the time period that we have had access to beer is small on evolutionary scales.

Reasonable is the key word here. How much beer would have to be consumed daily to get sufficient amounts of B12, and can people who don't drink alcohol be accommodated as well?

 

I found a great article by a former pro-vegan who argues that the problems of the vegan diet, as well as some of the major drawbacks of the omnivorous diet, can be fixed with better farming methods. And the author adds that many of the shocking numbers vegans throw around regularly about water needs and greenhouse gas emissions are badly summarized data:

 

Like many greens I have thoughtlessly repeated the claim that it requires 100,000 litres of water to produce every kilogram of beef. Fairlie shows that this figure is wrong by around three orders of magnitude. It arose from the absurd assumption that every drop of water that falls on a pasture disappears into the animals that graze it, never to re-emerge.

 

Similarly daft assumptions underlie the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation's famous claim that livestock are responsible for 18% of the world's greenhouse gas emissions, a higher proportion than transport. Fairlie shows that it made a number of basic mistakes. It attributes all deforestation that culminates in cattle ranching in the Amazon to cattle: in reality it is mostly driven by land speculation and logging. It muddles up one-off emissions from deforestation with ongoing pollution. It makes similar boobs in its nitrous oxide and methane accounts, confusing gross and net production. (Conversely, the organization greatly underestimates fossil fuel consumption by intensive farming: its report seems to have been informed by a powerful bias against extensive livestock keeping.)

 

 

 

 

Apologies to ydoaPs for not sticking to the spirit of the OP. This thread has degenerated into another pro/anti discussion rather than continuing to assume that we're all already vegans by choice. I tried, I really did, but I find it so hard to talk well with my tongue constantly in my cheek, especially when faced with objectionable arguments.

[rigney]

Zoo farms? Farm zoos? Black market steaks? I can see it now Canadian meat cartels...

No, No, No! Bring the animals to town for entertainment.

 

Ole! “El Toro, El Jefe”

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=2h-WhhqFjv4

 

It has been said that Mexico has no Olympic Team because, everyone that can run, jump, swim or pole vault is already in the USA. But, here’s proof that not all Mexicans are in America. And definitely, “some are not there at all”. Is this the Mexican version of an Olympic Tryout or a Government sponsored Socialized Medical Plan for vasectomies, prostrate exams, brain surgery, etc.? Or maybe just a good reason to eat beef? But you can bet your Tufu, there are absolutely no vegan diets in Mexico.

Edited August 22, 2012 by rigney

[JMJones0424]

No, No, No! Bring the animals to town for entertainment.

 

Ole! "El Toro, El Jefe"

http://www.youtube.c...p?v=2h-WhhqFjv4

 

It has been said that Mexico has no Olympic Team because, everyone that can run, jump, swim or pole vault is already in the USA. But, here's proof that not all Mexicans are in America. And definitely, "some are not there at all". Is this the Mexican version of an Olympic Tryout or a Government sponsored Socialized Medical Plan for vasectomies, prostrate exams, brain surgery, etc.? Or maybe just a good reason to eat beef? But you can bet your Tu-Fu there are absolutely no vegan diets in Mexico.

 

Wow. The description of the video is in Portuguese, not Spanish. Even if you can't read Portuguese, Google translate auto-detect correctly identifies the language. The description includes the location of the video as Terceira Island and Sao Miguel in the Azores.

 

The Mexican Olympic soccer team won the gold.

 

What evidence do you have that there are no vegans in Mexico?

 

Assuming you think this post is humorous, why would you even think it's appropriate in this thread? Can you not see how needlessly offensive it is?

[rigney]

Wow. The description of the video is in Portuguese, not Spanish. Even if you can't read Portuguese, Google translate auto-detect correctly identifies the language. The description includes the location of the video as Terceira Island and Sao Miguel in the Azores.

 

The Mexican Olympic soccer team won the gold.

 

What evidence do you have that there are no vegans in Mexico?

Because they send all of their radishes, onions and lettuce to the US. plus(their agave, as tequila) and their pecans.

Assuming you think this post is humorous, why would you even think it's appropriate in this thread? Can you not see how needlessly offensive it is?

A linguist eh? Portugese? I was thinking more like the south side of Juarez. I can see that you are not in a jovial mood Senor. Do you even have a fun loving side? Or ees it that yu are jus too serrus and saw no humor in many of the posts? Edited August 22, 2012 by rigney

[swansont]

No, No, No! Bring the animals to town for entertainment.

 

Ole! “El Toro, El Jefe”

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=2h-WhhqFjv4

 

It has been said that Mexico has no Olympic Team because, everyone that can run, jump, swim or pole vault is already in the USA. But, here’s proof that not all Mexicans are in America. And definitely, “some are not there at all”. Is this the Mexican version of an Olympic Tryout or a Government sponsored Socialized Medical Plan for vasectomies, prostrate exams, brain surgery, etc.? Or maybe just a good reason to eat beef? But you can bet your Tufu, there are absolutely no vegan diets in Mexico.

!

Moderator Note

Congrats. You've earned a three-day vacation to anywhere but here.

There's no excuse for this kind of crap.

[Ringer]

Don't worry the vegan agenda would be in an unending loop:

 

Person 1: No one will ever eat meat again because causes too much suffering.

Person 2: We will need a lot of new farmland to feed everyone.

Person 1: No problem, look at all those forests and plains areas.

Person 2: Wait, don't other animals live there?

Person 1: Why yes they do.

Person 2: Wouldn't we be killing a large amount of animals and thus cause suffering?

Person 1: But think of all the other animals we would save!

Person 2: But think of all the animals we would kill!

 

And repeat.

[JohnB]

For sake of argument, everyone has gone vegan, and has done so faster than we could eat all of the meat. What is a vegan to do with all of the livestock? It's obviously unethical for a vegan (for the purposes of this thread, the vegans are so because of ethics based on animal suffering) to kill them.

 

Do they send them off to the wild to die? How about restricting their mating into extinction?

 

Nah, give it a week and people will be heading down back alleys to visit a "Steakeasy".