Democracy in Ukraine

[Aardvark]

Yanukovych, Russias favorite and generally considered to be deeply corrupt, has been officialy declared the winner of the Ukrainian general election.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4045449.stm

 

International observers state that the election was unfair and rigged. Large numbers of Ukrainians are refusing to accept these results and civil disorder appears to be breaking out.

 

Colin Powell has made strong statements condemming the rigged election, while Russia wants Yanukovych to remain in power to form closer links with Russia.

 

Any comments?

[Douglas]

Yanukovych' date=' Russias favorite and generally considered to be deeply corrupt, has been officialy declared the winner of the Ukrainian general election.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4045449.stm

 

International observers state that the election was unfair and rigged. Large numbers of Ukrainians are refusing to accept these results and civil disorder appears to be breaking out.

 

Colin Powell has made strong statements condemming the rigged election, while Russia wants Yanukovych to remain in power to form closer links with Russia.

 

Any comments?[/quote']

The other guy (Yushchenko), wants a new election on Dec 12th. Seems like Yushchenko was pretty popular, has a lot of grass roots backing.

He just may get a new election.

[Mokele]

The other guy (Yushchenko), wants a new election on Dec 12th. Seems like Yushchenko was pretty popular, has a lot of grass roots backing.

He just may get a new election.

 

On the premise that whoever rigged this one somehow won't rig the next one, even though the prior election clearly indicates they can do so?

 

I'm not really sure I see the point in trying again in a game that you already know is crooked.

 

I'm not saying he should accept it, just that it might be a better idea to get the game un-crooked before trying again.

 

Mokele

[Perennial]

I heard that at least the EU is planning on sending a bunch of observers to monitor things if they redo the election, don't know how much healthier would the elections be as the result of that. Anyways, in this case it appears the opposition are the ones aiming for a more open society, the "winners" want to create an ever more closed and controlled one a la Russia which ought to be avoided as its still possible.

[_13eoWuLF__]

It really sucks that someone that the people in power can't do what's right for the people. Power just corrupts damm it.

[Aardvark]

I heard that at least the EU is planning on sending a bunch of observers to monitor things if they redo the election, don't know how much healthier would the elections be as the result of that.

 

There were international observers at this election and they clearly stated that the election was rigged. I don't see how simly repeating the exercise is going to achieve anything.

 

Instead of calls for compromise or fresh elections the people who rigged this election should be chucked out, and preferably into prison. Imagine if it was found that a US president had completely rigged an election. Would anyone be caling for compromises or a re run? Or would the malefactor be facing a long stretch inside?

 

There are diplomatic difficulties as Moscow backs the cheaters but it is important to show we will stand up and back democracy against tryanny, even in countries without oil. I hope our leaders have the guts to do it. (although i have major doubts about the FCO).

[Perennial]

Didn't know the coverage of the first election was as thorough. At least the local parliament declated the election result illegal ... gives some hope for a reasonable resolution.

[Aardvark]

The main worry is that Putin is taking a very close interest. He sees Ukraine as being part of Russias sphere of influence and does not appreciate the opposition getting a fair go or any Western support for democracy there.

 

Putins authoritarian instincts are becoming a serious concern.

[Perennial]

Putin is sure starting to look like a greater "problem". He's quite jealous about the sphere of his, and looks willing to go to great lengths to enforce it. I think the situation in several ex - soviet countries is even worse than in Ukraine (especially if looking eastward) making the current events & whether a honest democratic ending can be found ever more important.

[Douglas]

It really sucks that someone that the people in power can't do what's right for the people. Power just corrupts damm it.

VIENNA95, Austria (AP) -- What ails Viktor Yushchenko?

From what I read, the Ukraine election was stolen from Yushchenko.

 

See story http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/28/wukra28.xml

 

 

Quote:

As Ukraine's popular pro-Western opposition leader claimed victory Tuesday in hotly contested presidential elections, the mystery surrounding an appearance-altering illness that twice prompted him to check into a Vienna hospital persisted.

 

Yushchenko accused the Ukrainian authorities of poisoning him. His detractors suggested he'd eaten some bad sushi.

 

Adding to the intrigue, the Austrian doctors who treated him have asked foreign experts to help determine if his symptoms may have been caused by toxins found in biological weapons.

 

Medical experts said they may never know for sure what befell Yushchenko.

http://cnn.worldnews.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=CNN.com+-+Mystery+surrounds+Yushchenko+ailment+-+Nov+25%2C+2004&expire=12%2F25%2F2004&urlID=12397363&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fedition.cnn.com%2F2004%2FWORLD%2Feurope%2F11%2F25%2Fyushchenko.ailment.ap%2Findex.html&partnerID=2006

 

 

 

Yushchenko: pictures taken on Sept 10th 2004 and Nov 2004

 

__________________

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[Daymare17]

There's no difference between the two candidates, except the fact that one is backed by US and EU imperialism and the other's backed by Russian imperialism. Compare the coverage of the Western media on this election with their coverage of the US elections. As always, it's a question of the interests of the US/European/Russian banks and multinationals. 'Democracy' just doesn't enter into it. No matter who gets in power eventually, it will still be the mafia who rules Ukraine just like they rule the rest of Eastern Europe. The difference is whether Ukraine will remain in the Russian sphere of influence or whether it will enter the Western sphere of influence (yes, the West does have one too) like Georgia did earlier.

[Perennial]

There's no difference between the two candidates, except the fact that one is backed by US and EU imperialism and the other's backed by Russian imperialism. Compare the coverage of the Western media on this election with their coverage of the US elections. As always, it's a question of the interests of the US/European/Russian banks and multinationals. 'Democracy' just doesn't enter into it. No matter who gets in power eventually, it will still be the mafia who rules Ukraine just like they rule the rest of Eastern Europe. The difference is whether Ukraine will remain in the Russian sphere of influence or whether it will enter the Western sphere of influence (yes, the West does have one too) like Georgia did earlier.

 

On short term the differences may be minute, but on long term the policies Putin & the eastern sphere are enforcing will in all likelihood backfire with a pretty big bang.

[Daymare17]

What policies are they enforcing? Nothing fundamentally different from the opposition's policies.

[Perennial]

What policies are they enforcing? Nothing fundamentally different from the opposition's policies.

 

You're probably right about that .... but I still believe that in long term its better to be influenced by the EU and the west than Putin's Russia, considering the direction Russia seems to be going.

[Aardvark]

You're probably right about that .... but I still believe that in long term its better to be influenced by the EU and the west than Putin's Russia, considering the direction Russia seems to be going.

 

Shame on you. Why are you conceding the point so easily? The idea that 'they're all as bad as each other' is feeble moral relativism. That's the kind of thinking that equates brutal dictatorships with democracies.

 

Yanukovych is a convicted violent criminal.

 

He is widely considered to retain links with the Donets mafia and operates the economy in a highly corrupt fashion.

 

As Ukrainian Prime Minister he has attacked Ukrainian 'nationalism' and tried to promote the Russian language at the expense of Ukrainian.

 

He has very clearly attempted to subvert democracy with censorship of all news outlets, intimidation and vote rigging. In addition he is plausibly suspected of trying to poison the leader of the oppostion.

 

Yushchenko believes in fighting the endemic corruption in Ukraine, developing closer political and economic ties with the EU rather than Yanukovychs policy of economic union with Putins Russia.

 

Yushchenko is respected as being free of mafia connections and being uncorrupted. To accept that the differences between the two candidates are small or that the only arguement is over the relative zones of influence between Russia and the West is simply stupid.

 

If Yushchenko was such a puppet of the West why is one of his main policy promises to withdrawn Ukrainian troops from the US led occuption of Iraq?

 

I'm afraid Daymare17 is operating from an outdated and foolish version of world politics, paranoid sub-marxist talk of EU imperialism simply demonstrates a lack of critical intelligence.

[Perennial]

Shame on you. Why are you conceding the point so easily? The idea that 'they're all as bad as each other' is feeble moral relativism. That's the kind of thinking that equates brutal dictatorships with democracies.

 

Yanukovych is a convicted violent criminal.

 

He is widely considered to retain links with the Donets mafia and operates the economy in a highly corrupt fashion.

 

As Ukrainian Prime Minister he has attacked Ukrainian 'nationalism' and tried to promote the Russian language at the expense of Ukrainian.

 

He has very clearly attempted to subvert democracy with censorship of all news outlets, intimidation and vote rigging. In addition he is plausibly suspected of trying to poison the leader of the oppostion.

 

Yushchenko believes in fighting the endemic corruption in Ukraine, developing closer political and economic ties with the EU rather than Yanukovychs policy of economic union with Putins Russia.

 

Yushchenko is respected as being free of mafia connections and being uncorrupted. To accept that the differences between the two candidates are small or that the only arguement is over the relative zones of influence between Russia and the West is simply stupid.

 

If Yushchenko was such a puppet of the West why is one of his main policy promises to withdrawn Ukrainian troops from the US led occuption of Iraq?

 

I'm afraid Daymare17 is operating from an outdated and foolish version of world politics, paranoid sub-marxist talk of EU imperialism simply demonstrates a lack of critical intelligence.

 

I'm "conceding" easily on the basis that democracy development in former soviet states has not really been what I expected it to be, irrespective of who seems to be running the show. I'm all for Yushchenko in this, what I don't get is how does it appear to be as difficult as it is to get rid of all the rotten remains the oligarchies have put in place. I hope your facts turn to daily life in the Ukraine asap, I can't say I see the situation quite as clearly, I'm still trying to figure out why an earth Yanukovych has even the support that he has (and trying to hear what the their side is trying to say, even though everything I've heard pretty much states that I shouldn't bother).

[Aardvark]

I'm still trying to figure out why an earth Yanukovych has even the support that he has (and trying to hear what the their side is trying to say, even though everything I've heard pretty much states that I shouldn't bother).

 

Yanukovych has a support base from the large numbers of ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine who have always resented an independent Ukraine and want closer ties with Russia.

 

He also has support from the heads of large business's in Ukraine who benefit from corrupt contracts and disposal of state property.

 

I'm not saying that Yushchenko has a magic wand, but he is known for being uncorrupt, something very rare in Ukraine.

 

Yes, democracies development in Eastern Europe is difficult, but look at Poland, Hungary, any of the Baltic states and others, all vibrant prospering democracies. What more did you expect? Ukraine has the choice of becoming like Poland and being a prosperous democracy, or like Belorussia, a corrupt, poor, Russian dominated despotism.

 

If that difference isn't enough to make you stand up to fools like Daymare17 then i'd be very disappointed.

[Perennial]

Yanukovych has a support base from the large numbers of ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine who have always resented an independent Ukraine and want closer ties with Russia.

 

He also has support from the heads of large business's in Ukraine who benefit from corrupt contracts and disposal of state property.

 

I'm not saying that Yushchenko has a magic wand, but he is known for being uncorrupt, something very rare in Ukraine.

 

Yes, democracies development in Eastern Europe is difficult, but look at Poland, Hungary, any of the Baltic states and others, all vibrant prospering democracies. What more did you expect? Ukraine has the choice of becoming like Poland and being a prosperous democracy, or like Belorussia, a corrupt, poor, Russian dominated despotism.

 

If that difference isn't enough to make you stand up to fools like Daymare17 then i'd be very disappointed.

 

I'd say one of the greatest problems I'm having with the democracy development in Eastern Europe that is responsible for my "short term" comment is that while countries for example in the Baltic region flourish, I don't think they have been able to let go some of the hatred they feel for Russians, which is then apparent in many of the restrictions and problems the local Russian population is now facing when they've been turned from "majority" to minority. So them supporting their candidate as they do is not entirely lost upon me. And this has been the case even though many of the pre-Soviet countries, especially in the western end, are quite exemplary decmocracies. Other than that, the process appears to take much more time than expected looking at it from our western viewpoint, and even after the development has been positive by our standards, backsteps appear to be an easy resort when facing hardships (like in the case of Russia, which some years ago appeared to taking steps towards an open uncorrupted society only to turn into what it is now).

[Aardvark]

You mention the Baltic states having 'hatred' towards Russia. That doesn't ring true to me. These are countries with populations smaller than some cities right next door to a continent size country with a history of brutal intervention and domination. In the circumstances some caution towards Russia is perfectly natural, especialy when Russia talks of these nations as being in the 'near abroad' and being part of a zone of 'special interest' to Russia.

 

These countries have faced being completely wiped off the map, in this situation their behaviour towards Russia and Russians living in their countries seems to be extraordinarily mild and concilatory. It also behoves us to be more supportive and understanding of them when they try and pursue western goals of democracy and civil liberties as opposed to the increasingly authoritarian and oppressive route Russia seems to be taking.

 

The way to help prevent 'backward steps' is to encourage the development of civil society in these nations, not simply stand back and state that you can't really see any differences between the sides and choices they have too make. To do that is to turn a wilfull blind eye to reality, which for someone of sufficent intelligence to realise what is happening verges on the immoral.

[Perennial]

You mention the Baltic states having 'hatred' towards Russia. That doesn't ring true to me. These are countries with populations smaller than some cities right next door to a continent size country with a history of brutal intervention and domination. In the circumstances some caution towards Russia is perfectly natural, especialy when Russia talks of these nations as being in the 'near abroad' and being part of a zone of 'special interest' to Russia.

 

These countries have faced being completely wiped off the map, in this situation their behaviour towards Russia and Russians living in their countries seems to be extraordinarily mild and concilatory. It also behoves us to be more supportive and understanding of them when they try and pursue western goals of democracy and civil liberties as opposed to the increasingly authoritarian and oppressive route Russia seems to be taking.

 

Them being cautious is natural, and is the reason from them being mild and concilatory. Unfortunately the news coming out from for example the Baltic countries suggests the local Russian population is being treated like 2nd class citizens, which albeit human, should be one of the very things in your not - to - do list when building up a free democratic society.

 

The way to help prevent 'backward steps' is to encourage the development of civil society in these nations, not simply stand back and state that you can't really see any differences between the sides and choices they have too make. To do that is to turn a wilfull blind eye to reality, which for someone of sufficent intelligence to realise what is happening verges on the immoral.

 

I for one am not turning a blind eye on anyone, the way to prevent backward steps is a take a keen interest on what is going in the nation and make sure they get the support they need to built their society. I'm hoping the western world has this interest on Ukraine after the election mess is over and they have a democratically elected leader, but don't really keep my hopes up for any short term miracle potions. The situation isn't just on/off overnight when you get the right guy leading the ranks, Ukraine still has a long way to go.

[Aardvark]

The situation isn't just on/off overnight when you get the right guy leading the ranks, Ukraine still has a long way to go.

 

Having a long way to go isn't the issue, it's heading in the right direction that matters.

 

I agree there are no instant solutions, but that doesn't make it any less important that the right people prevail.

 

On the subject of the Baltic states, the Russians still living there arent doing too badly, i'd save my sympathy for more deserving cases.

[Perennial]

Having a long way to go isn't the issue, it's heading in the right direction that matters.

 

I agree there are no instant solutions, but that doesn't make it any less important that the right people prevail.

 

On the subject of the Baltic states, the Russians still living there arent doing too badly, i'd save my sympathy for more deserving cases.

 

Sure, but if the movement is clogged the direction is pointless. I'd say the Baltic states are doing very good overall, and hope Ukraine will be up to their standards in the near future ... the point of the case was that if the democracy development turns you from a 'majority' to 'minority' in one election night, you might be somewhat hesitant with it even if you support the idea. Well, sympathy is not really a limited resource.

[Aardvark]

the point of the case was that if the democracy development turns you from a 'majority' to 'minority' in one election night, you might be somewhat hesitant with it even if you support the idea. Well, sympathy is not really a limited resource.

 

Fair enough, but frankly Russians in other countries have Russia to go to. Balts and Ukrainians don't have anywhere else to call home. So my sympathies are strictly limited.

 

And that doesnt really alter the case that Yuschenko is an honest man and Yanukovych is a corrupt, mafia linked ballot rigger.

 

We really should stand up to gutless moral relativism that calls the differences insignificant and suggests we just wash our hands of it all.

[Perennial]

Fair enough, but frankly Russians in other countries have Russia to go to. Balts and Ukrainians don't have anywhere else to call home. So my sympathies are strictly limited.

 

Well it ain't a real refugee crisis for sure.

 

And that doesnt really alter the case that Yuschenko is an honest man and Yanukovych is a corrupt, mafia linked ballot rigger.

 

Now when the new elections are going to come about this may turn out to have a happier ending.

 

We really should stand up to gutless moral relativism that calls the differences insignificant and suggests we just wash our hands of it all.

 

I don't think there are objections against this notion.