Taxes, are we ready for these new ones?

[John Cuthber]

 

More like anyone can make capital gains, rich or not. There's a whole readily identified group of people who can't take the earned income credit either, is there a reason why this matters?

 

We already established that this assertion " anyone can make capital gains, rich or not." is false.

We pointed out the counter examples and you even accepted them.

Please don't try to re introduce false arguments.

 

"There's a whole readily identified group of people who can't take the earned income credit either, is there a reason why this matters? "

Who cares if it matters.

The fact is that nobody was trying to claim that it wasn't true.

 

The truth or falsehood of a statement that nobody made is a bit of a strawman isn't it.

[padren]

ParanoiA, isn't part of the reason we have favorable interest rates on 401ks in the first place due to their longer term investment nature?

 

That is a simple free market force, and the penalties increase the market's confidence in those funds to mature as expected, instead of being prematurely raided by their holders. Otherwise, we would see those interest rate gains in everyday free checking bank accounts.

 

 

I definitely agree with you that over-regulation and complex tax laws do hobble people striving for some level of upward mobility, including those at the lowest income levels. The fact that only some marginal percentage of poor people will be "financially fortunate" enough to attempt to start a business at any given time does not change the fact that of those who do, the regulatory maze alone can break them before they even get the chance to be horribly unsuccessful at business.

 

Overall, I have to give the regulations on-balance credit for maintaining an environment where business owners have common expectations and civil remedies, but it does not excuse the damage they can cause.

 

I think all this is beside the point though - while it is an important topic - it does not address the fact that the tax breaks given for capital gains rarely benefit working class people as much as the very wealthy.

 

Right now, the majority of Americans do not have the financial flexibility an accountant needs to finagle their income into sweet capital gains territory where the sky's the limit. So - yes, I can see how some aspects of capital gains breaks can make sense on a small scale but as a means to game the system the rich have broken it for everyone by pushing it into a defacto regressive tax.

 

 

We can wish for a smaller government that needs less money all we want - today, we have a budget we have to deal with, and a tax rate that's supposed to cover it. When anyone uses schemes to shelter their income from taxation, they are playing a zero-sum game of tug-a-war with the rest of the tax paying public, and the wealthy are far better equipped in that struggle.

[dragonstar57]

Your problem is that you think it is possible to tax the super-rich. They’re super-rich for a reason. They know how to keep their wealth. They know how to pass their tax burdens on to others. It’s like corporate taxes. Why not just call corporate taxes sales taxes. Corporations just pass their tax burdens on to their customers, or they screw their employees. Why not just accept that fact that middle class people ultimately pay all the taxes. You will sleep better at night if you do.

that is not something anyone is going to accept anytime soon.

The rest of us are just bitching because our stuff is not as nice as others.

no the rest of us are bitching because a small group are benefiting from our system disproportionately to what they are paying in taxes

 

I prefer a sales tax solution that exempts medical, food and shelter. This moves taxation to surplus, away from survival resources. Private, personal information no longer required means more power to the people.

I think taxing a loaf of bread is a lot worse than taxing capital gains IMO

 

More like anyone can make capital gains, rich or not. There's a whole readily identified group of people who can't take the earned income credit either, is there a reason why this matters? Lots of poor folks and middle class folks run into capital gains when attempting to mobilize themselves economically. Nothing changes that. You change the capital gains rate, you *will* necessarily knock little people down.

the solution to this would to sum peoples income (including capital gains)

have that number decide the tax bracket and tax the capital gains 5% less than any wages for that bracket.

 

 

I think you're more concerned about knocking big people down such that a those little people don't bother you.

is it fair for some wealthy investor to pay a lower tax than a middle class worker?

 

 

 

But I haven't though Swansont, that's the point. I'm still *attempting* to mobilize and acquire house flipping as another occupation, but it is not complete. I have merely bought a house - saving about 600 a month in mortgage, but I still pay insurance and real estate taxes. The house is not sold, we're living in it, paying bills, struggling to come up with the tax bill. We have not achieved this yet, we are broke mostly, and not prepared to sell the house yet. My plan is still not yet realized.

and this is why a 401k is not a savings account.

Building a business is not one day your poor, working for the man, the next day your business is up and running. For those of us with limited means, it takes time and creativity. Creativity being limited by laws and regulations. These 401K tax laws are keeping us from continuing on the house and getting it ready for sale. That's the facts, man. I can't continue to divert my funds to further improving this home while this tax bill looms over our heads.

they are also what made it possible in the first place.

 

I meant, however, anyone can run into capital gains, rich or not. When one tries to improve their situation financially, and begins to imagine and create ways to acquire more resources, they will encounter the barriers you built for the rich. It happans all the time. I've struggled against government bullshit my whole life and it is absolutely discouraging. It takes a long time to save money and risk it on an idea - years and years - the last thing you need is government pigeon holding you into a business model that doesn't give you an advantage.

which is why capital gains should also be a progressive tax. (although I doubt many poor people are risking a whole lot on investments)

 

That wasn't an oversimplification, it was mistatement of the word "every" instead of "any" body. The funny part is, I'm the one attempting to show that poor people are more complex than any of you are giving them credit for. That they are more resourceful and busy than you think they are. That you may have built barriers aimed at the rich, but you're hitting little people trying to change their lives for the better because they don't throw their hands up and give up on themselves as you have.

the fact is that it takes money to make money. The poor do not typically invest. (Assumption)

Further your last sentence is a caricature, or a stereotype of what you think the poor are. That's silly. You should visit Sand Springs, OK sometime and I'll show you whole neigborhoods of poor - they are a struggling class of people, not static sacks of tissue. They have more than you think, and they are capable of more than you think.

you know what limits creativity ?

poverty.

If you have a hard time paying your rent and feeding yourself, are you going to be playing the real-estate game? Are you going to be buying stocks?

 

 

Then you understand why they don't need our sympathies. They have cars, houses, air conditioners, TV's, stereo's, computers, and etc and all kinds of stuff - it's just shitty versions of it. Our poor mostly don't do without, they do *with* ugly and pre-owned.

yeah they have cars, Cars that break down every two months and cost 4-5k to repair.

Yeah they have air conditioners, air conditioners which double their electricity while only cooling one room. The fact is that MANY people go without. Many people go with shitty versions which cost more in the long run and aren’t as good in the short run.

I say if you care about poor people, remove the bureaucracy that makes it so hard for the little guy to start up a business. Stop taking his tax money on his paychecks, what little he has. Move to a sales tax that only taxes surplus - let him have all of his money so he can be in a better position to try his own ideas of labor or service, that may make him/her happier in their lives.

I think we can all agree that the current system needs a major overhaul.

 

In other words, fight for open markets for them. Support removing regulations invented by business-government cronies.

*filch* the regulations are so restrictive because big business has so much power on the regulators. We need to redo all the regulations to make sure they keep everyone honest while allowing people to be able to start up small businesses.

 

 

 

That's extremely destitute iNow. The poverty threshold is set at 23K for a family of 4. 7 people to a room and can barely afford groceries? This is not the typical poor. This is not the majority of poor people you're talking about, this is that slice of destitution that is the most depressing and least hopeful.

people having a hard time buying groceries aren’t investing.

But the point I'm making is that it is a point of gravitation for someone ready to try something to improve their financial situation. To write this off as most poor people don't have 401K's so we don't need to make any changes to it, is to write off those little people you refuse to notice that won't just lie down and be helpless like our numbers say they should be.

many poor look at a 401k as a joke.

hmmm pick between making ends meet a little easier/pay rent/eat or save for when I’m old?

 

It's a bad law to dictate to citizens how to spend their money on otherwise legal things. Yeah, I knew about the penalty and did it anyway. I knew the government was going to be a brick wall, but did it anyway. Is that somehow a good argument for government to build brick walls in the first place?

401ks are supposed to be a long term investment and that fee is to discourage people from using it like a normal savings.

Like I keep saying...your laws and regulations impede the progress of creative people with limited means. That 401K was the key to this move for us, and the government has been the only obstacle, certainly the worst one. Imagine if they weren't an obstacle at all? I could spend the next 4 paychecks finishing the siding, the windows and the air handler and would be ready to sell in about 4 weeks. Instead, I'll be saving for taxes the rest of the year if I'm lucky.

that and people would empty their 401k’s every time they need some extra cash.

I think we haven’t gotten to the real question yet and that would be “is a tax increase necessary”

and the answer is yes.

I think we need to overhaul our infrastructure and transpiration system.

We need to invest in public education.

We need to invest in more grants for people wanting further education.

We need to invest in the sciences and NASA.

We need to redo most of our regulation so it is less restrictive to small business and forces big business to be honest.

There is a lot to be done and we will need a large sum to do it.

Who will benefit from the newer more efficient roads, the bridges, the tunnels, the bullet trains?

Who will benefit from a more educated mobile populace?

Doesn’t it seem right that we raise taxes on those who would not be harmed by it?

No one is saying “share the wealth” we are saying that the more society has contributed to you the more you should have to contribute back to society especially when it is in such dire need of systemic change.

[swansont]

I say if you care about poor people, remove the bureaucracy that makes it so hard for the little guy to start up a business. Stop taking his tax money on his paychecks, what little he has. Move to a sales tax that only taxes surplus - let him have all of his money so he can be in a better position to try his own ideas of labor or service, that may make him/her happier in their lives.

Why is this not due to hatred or resentment of the rich, but a proposed expiration of a tax cut is?

[Pymander]

Why is this not due to hatred or resentment of the rich, but a proposed expiration of a tax cut is?

Force alone bears rule. It alone levies tribute, as nothing else can. Its legitimation is that it brings peace. Its laws are broken at the risk of its penalties. These must make the advantage derived by defiance virtually pointless. That is, expected benefit of lawlessness must be strictly negative.

 

Taxation, without which government cannot survive, is dependent on tribute. Tribute is dependent on currency, the power over economies. A government in control of its currency, and thus its tribute, is sound and healthy. Bureaucracy administers such systems as here alluded to. Bureaucracy consists of individuals. Individuals can profit by betrayal. Should they take the bait, private interests may coerce and goad such individuals into surrendering elements of this basis for government. Thus governments find their power and control diluted by treason and corruption. In the words of Thomas Jefferson, the banking industry represents a greater threat to civil liberty than a standing army.

 

Governments need to reassume control of their economies and execute their traitors. The usurping of the livelihoods of starting price bookies seemed to present no problem to government, to take control of gambling profits, even without a starting price, by the stroke of a pen. This is essentially no different to the same stroke of a pen usurping ALL FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS as a source of government revenue. This will even allow the abolition of all tax, leaving in its wake a simple commission, fair and just, for every transaction without exception, levying the same tribute across all classes. The result will be government services properly financed to ensure their legitimating peace provided, by services rendered to all.

 

Investors have had it too good for too long. It is time to look after the people.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Pymander