too-open-minded Posted July 20, 2012 Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) I'm not a conspirasist, I don't think the government is out to get us but this is the only "conspiracy" I believe in. Their was a church before their was Jesus. Christianity was not a religion until after the birth of "Christ." Personally I think the church didn't like Jesus's preaching about God. Jesus spoke of pacifism, truth, equality, and much more wise things. The church had ignorant ways and realized they had to "adopt" Jesus of Nazareth's ways if they were to keep some of their views in the world. They wrote a religious text, the bible. I have read some of the bible, not the whole thing. I'll be honest but the little bit I read out of the bible was enough for me to think its a big contradiction. Theirs tons of wisdom in the bible and an abundance of ignorance. Jesus of Nazareth, to me was a real man. He did not perform miracles or walk on water. He touched peoples hearts and could bring light to a dim situation. Jesus spoke of heresy and was wanted dead. Jesus said god was kind and understanding, this is not what the church thought. Jesus was a very smart man, you cant change peoples views on what they have been raised to believe by being an idiot. He didn't perform miracles, he was an einstein of his time. Whether your a christian or another religion at-least acknowledge the fact that man wrote the Bible, Koran, Torah or other religious text and not god. I'm an agnostic and I think if god exists its something were not going to fully comprehend. Full information on the subject is not attainable with our minds. Edited July 20, 2012 by too-open-minded
KDPeffley Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) too-open-minded, Over the past year, I've been doing lots of reading on the historical Jesus, and I find it both liberating and sometimes inspiring. There are two authors that I would recommend, but there are many others. One is John Dominic Crossan. He's been researching the historical Jesus for over 30 years. He was formerly a Roman Catholic priest. I've especially enjoyed two books of his. One is The Greatest Prayer, which covers the meaning of the Lord's Prayer verse by verse. Crossan's main theme is that Jesus was a peasant on a mission proclaiming that the kingdom of God, i.e. the cause of justice and love, was here and now, not necessarily in a here-after. The other book I most enjoyed was The Power of Parable. I happen to think it's his best book. He has many others, and they are very scholarly and sometimes tedious to read through, but don't take my word for it, as you may like them as well. The other author I enjoyed was Bart Ehrman. Once a strong believing fundamentalist, Ehrman became a biblical scholar debunking the ideas of biblical inerrancy he learned as an evangelical Christian. He has done a lot of work pointing out the discrepancies of the bible and emphasizing that it was written not by God, but by human beings. I very much enjoyed two of his books, Misquoting Jesus and Jesus Interrupted. For a really good comprehensive understanding of the early history of Christianity (the first 400 years) I would strongly recommend reading From Jesus to Christianity by L. Michael White. White is also an historian and scholar. His book was the basis for the PBS series with the same name as the book. I have fully enjoyed all of these books and many others. The thing that I really like about John Dominic Crossan is that his books have a theological perspective that is very engaging and inspiring, and it's fully backed up by his research. Cheers! Kevin Edited July 27, 2012 by KDPeffley
Iota Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 I'm not a conspirasist, I don't think the government is out to get us but this is the only "conspiracy" I believe in. I think the term 'conspiracy theorist' has been given a bad name by frequent TV culture and the numerous conspiracy nuts out there; belonging to, for e.g. illuminati, faked moon landing, and area 51 is hiding aliens conspiracy groups... and more. Let's remember the term conspiracy just means: 'an agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud or other wrongful act'. Theory, in this context, merely means a proposal backed up by some evidence. Some better than others of course. So unless it has at least those two things I wouldn't class it as a conspiracy theory. There are many good reasons to be keeping a watchful eye on, for example, your general government, to ensure fraudulent, criminal acts don't go under the radar or unpunished. Apologies for breaking off of topic on your post a bit, just felt it was a good side point for people to read when they view the post from all over the interwebs. Dodgy happenings aren't uncommon in the world. In fact, I'd go as far as saying they have been more frequent in actual history, than in fiction. You may want to research 'Operation Northwoods' as an example.
TheVillageAtheist Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 Clearly the Jesus we encounter in the Bible is a mythological persona. That one isn't real. But there are clues to suggest that he--or whoever the Jesus god-man character was based on--really did exist. The best evidence for this is the seeming conspiracy by Biblical authors to place his birth in the City of David. The two authors who write of his birth story give wildly conflicting reports of the nativity. Luke goes so far as to invent a Roman census for the purpose of moving Joseph and Mary from their home in Galilee to Bethlehem for Jesus' birth. If Jesus were a wholecloth fabrication, why not just have him from Bethlehem? Why the subterfuge? To me, the fact that the authors strain to place his birth in the only place where the prophecy could be fulfilled indicates that there was a particularly influential rabbi from Galilee around that time. I do cringe at the idea of people calling him a great moralist. He was the leader of a death cult, and his teachings reflected that. Turning the other cheek, giving no care for the morrow, abandoning your family; these injunctions are irresponsible when viewed in any other context than "The world is about to end." We use some of his words as platitudinous ideals, but even the most basic of them don't really pass the test when scrutinized. For example, is it even possible to love your neighbor as you love yourself? How could a society survive without human judgment? Our society relies on being able to judge people based on their motives and actions. And how moral is it to allow your enemy to strike you? That's immoral on any level, from the kid allowing himself to be bullied, to the nation who allows invaders to cross its borders unimpeded. The end result for both is destruction. This can only be considered moral if you believe the world is about to end and Jesus is God incarnate. Otherwise, he's just a guy leading you down a primrose path. Anyway, that's my take.
too-open-minded Posted July 28, 2012 Author Posted July 28, 2012 Morality really has nothing to do with religion, yes some people use religion as a morale Viagra. At the end of the day their still gonna do what they would do. Hitler was a catholic. If your fallowing religion for a morale purpose that is your problem not the religions. I'm willing to bet a good amount of u.s soldiers are christian yet they condone breaking one of the ten commandments. My point is that Jesus of Nazareth was a real man, not a magician, and one of the first we know of to defy the church.
TheVillageAtheist Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 Morality really has nothing to do with religion, yes some people use religion as a morale Viagra. At the end of the day their still gonna do what they would do. Hitler was a catholic. If your fallowing religion for a morale purpose that is your problem not the religions. I'm willing to bet a good amount of u.s soldiers are christian yet they condone breaking one of the ten commandments. My point is that Jesus of Nazareth was a real man, not a magician, and one of the first we know of to defy the church. I don't agree with that. Religion codifies and institutionalizes certain behaviors, and causes otherwise good people to do bad things. Sure, bad people would do bad things regardless, but religion provides them with an outlet, and ropes in otherwise decent people into that bad behavior. You mention Hitler, how aware are you that the Holocaust was the end result of a thousand years of antisemitism through violence and mistreatment in Europe? Hitler encouraged pogroms during the Holocaust that built the momentum for the Final Solution. That monster was just the latest in a millennial line of Jew-hating thugs. And who really cares if Jesus defied the church? He was still a bigot and misogynist, still condoned things we consider barbaric, like slavery. He was the one who introduce the idea of eternal damnation to the Abrahamic faiths. Before him, you didn't have to worry about burning in Hell forever. That was the work of gentle Jesus.
TheVillageAtheist Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 why take the Bible so literal? In what way does "I have not come to abolish the law of the prophets" work as a metaphor? 1
TheVillageAtheist Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 Jesus didn't write the bible bro. Obviously. But if we're simply going to ignore the words attributed to him, how is it that you draw your conclusion that he was the "Einstein of his time," (which isn't even remotely accurate, by the way)? You base your opinion of this character one way or the other on his teachings. There are no other sources. He didn't write a memoir, and there is no archival footage of him. What you're doing is engaging in the same kind of delusion religious people do. The difference is simply in the details. But at least Christians actually base their opinions of Jesus on the things he said. You, meanwhile, have simply created an imaginary vision of him in your head.
too-open-minded Posted July 29, 2012 Author Posted July 29, 2012 Everything isn't black and white. Only when you make it that way. The only image I have in my head is a man defying the church. That is what he did and why he was crucified.
TheVillageAtheist Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Everything isn't black and white. Only when you make it that way. Sounds like an evasion tactic to me. What exactly have I made black-and-white, and what nuance am I missing out on? The only image I have in my head is a man defying the church. That is what he did and why he was crucified. And where did this image come from, exactly? You've admittedly read very little of the Bible, so I'm curious as to how you've reached your conclusion with such conviction. It seems to me that you began this experiment with a preconception of Jesus in mind, and ignored everything that might contradict it. That's not something an intelligent or intellectually honest person would do.
Moontanman Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 There is no evidence that Jesus as described in the New Testament ever existed, the first mention of Jesus anyplace outside the bible was almost a century after his death that is widely regarded as added a couple hundred years after the fact by christians who are famous for lying to support their religion.
too-open-minded Posted July 30, 2012 Author Posted July 30, 2012 The Bible, is what your making out to be black and white. I'm not defending it because i hate the freaking bible. Although I fear the christian who fallows everything in the bible, I understand the christian who picks and chooses what to fallow in the Bible. Regardless of whether or not Jesus ever existed their was a point in time when people started believing in something other than what their church officials told them, this was before the printing press and before Martin Luther. They started believing in something other than what they were raised to believe. Maybe it was one person who got christened the name "Christ" or maybe it was a group of people. Either way, it happened.
Phi for All Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 why take the Bible so literal? It's the only book of the time that mentions Jesus. Shouldn't it be considered the authority? Although I fear the christian who fallows everything in the bible, I understand the christian who picks and chooses what to fallow in the Bible. Picking and choosing what to believe means that everything you believe about the Bible is just your interpretation. That means no one's interpretation is any better than anyone else's, and therefore none can be trusted.
too-open-minded Posted July 30, 2012 Author Posted July 30, 2012 The Bible is full of contradictions, I don't give things that contradict themselves full authority. Everything is an interpretation, your reality is far different than mine. Mine is different than yours, some are alike. None the same. Do I need to emphasize special relativity? Book of the time? I'm sure things have changed about Jesus at least one of the times the bible was rewritten. For good or for bad, I don't know but either way i'm sure things have changed. Theirs other books Jesus appears in as a prophet. Moontanman - It doesn't matter if your christian, muslim, asian, black. Theirs people with your label who will lie for support of something. I talk about my views on Jesus of Nazareth, maybe he existed or maybe not. My point being that something whether it was Jesus the person, a small group of people, or a public outcry caused disruption in the church. I understand where you all are coming from and you all have valid arguments but i'm wondering if your seeing the point in my argument or are you just choose to not acknowledge it? Something shook the grounds of the Hebrew sanctioned church. Christianity stems from it. I have not read the entire bible but I do have a family friend who's in his 70's and has been preaching since he was 16 years old. He has been on television preaching and has a college degree education in the Bible. Although we disagree more than we agree, he is a devout christian and agrees with my views a little bit.
TheVillageAtheist Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) The Bible, is what your making out to be black and white. I'm not defending it because i hate the freaking bible. Although I fear the christian who fallows everything in the bible, I understand the christian who picks and chooses what to fallow in the Bible. Regardless of whether or not Jesus ever existed their was a point in time when people started believing in something other than what their church officials told them, this was before the printing press and before Martin Luther. They started believing in something other than what they were raised to believe. Maybe it was one person who got christened the name "Christ" or maybe it was a group of people. Either way, it happened. I still don't know what you mean by "black and white." You contrast my position with a Christian who cherry-picks what to believe, which seems to suggest that you think I'm someone who believes everything. I assure you, this is not the case. We have plenty of evidence to suggest that most of the key events didn't happen, and enough common sense to know that the magical stuff is bogus. So I'm not really sure where this charge of seeing the Bible in "black and white" comes from or refers to. As to Jesus getting people to think differently about the "church" (it would have been a temple, not a church) Jesus certainly wasn't the first radical rabbi, and we know he wasn't the last. In fact, Jesus, (or the character/characters he was based on) is not even the most influential person in Christianity's history. That honor belongs to Constantine I, whose conversion is likely the reason the faith exists today as anything other than the obscure Jewish cult it began as, and was destined to remain. And since Judaism does not represent the first organized religion, I'm not sure why you see Jesus' influence as being some kind of--forgive the term--revelation. He certainly wasn't the first person to challenge establishment. He's just the most popular, which again isn't even his doing; if not for Constantine as well as the appropriation of Pagan myths and rituals, then there's every chance you never would have heard of it. The Bible is full of contradictions, I don't give things that contradict themselves full authority. Everything is an interpretation, your reality is far different than mine. Mine is different than yours, some are alike. None the same. Do I need to emphasize special relativity? Book of the time? I'm sure things have changed about Jesus at least one of the times the bible was rewritten. For good or for bad, I don't know but either way i'm sure things have changed. Theirs other books Jesus appears in as a prophet. Moontanman - It doesn't matter if your christian, muslim, asian, black. Theirs people with your label who will lie for support of something. I talk about my views on Jesus of Nazareth, maybe he existed or maybe not. My point being that something whether it was Jesus the person, a small group of people, or a public outcry caused disruption in the church. I understand where you all are coming from and you all have valid arguments but i'm wondering if your seeing the point in my argument or are you just choose to not acknowledge it? Something shook the grounds of the Hebrew sanctioned church. Christianity stems from it. I have not read the entire bible but I do have a family friend who's in his 70's and has been preaching since he was 16 years old. He has been on television preaching and has a college degree education in the Bible. Although we disagree more than we agree, he is a devout christian and agrees with my views a little bit. Jesus' actual effect on the temple was far, far less than that. He was a pesky apocalyptic rabbi who was arrested and crucified (if the story is true). The Jewish faith carried on, and still does to this day. All that changed was that there began another new branch of Judaism (which is what Christianity is) that eventually (hundreds of years later) became the largest religion in the world. I suggest reading the Bible. Your second-hand information isn't helping you. Edited July 31, 2012 by TheVillageAtheist
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