A Challenge for the Forum

[Missbee]

Hello the forum. I would like to introduce myself by way of a challenge.

 

Make water move uphill

 

Create a fountain that takes an initial short input of kinetic energy and runs for a few minutes or a few hours or whatever.

 

Rules:

No electricity

Magnets are allowed

Gears are allowed

Gears and springs only as a last resort

Passive solar is allowed

 

To give a bit of context : I have been working on this project for two decades and can tell you that your initial assumptions may well miss the mark (judging from the many conversations I have had with scientists over the decades).

 

My hope is that the challenge I present you is worthy, illuminating or both.

 

 

Edited July 22, 2012 by Missbee

[Binyamin Tsadik]

Hello the forum. I would like to introduce myself by way of a challenge.

 

Make water move uphill

 

Create a fountain that takes an initial short input of kinetic energy and runs for a few minutes or a few hours or whatever.

 

Rules:

No electricity

Magnets are allowed

Gears are allowed

Gears and springs only as a last resort

Passive solar is allowed

 

To give a bit of context : I have been working on this project for two decades and can tell you that your initial assumptions may well miss the mark (judging from the many conversations I have had with scientists over the decades).

 

My hope is that the challenge I present you is worthy, illuminating or both.

 

 

 

Three questions

 

1. What is passive solar?

2. Can the water go back downhill after it goes uphill?

3. How could gears and springs possibly help with water?

 

 

 

[ewmon]

How about ...

 

Hero's Fountain

 

[Joatmon]

Of course you realise that it will take energy to lift water to a higher level. You therefore need a mechanism and a source of energy. The mechanism could be an Archimedes screw. If you are raising water from a running stream or river then the flow of water can provide the required energy via a submerged propeller or water wheel. I'm sure you can think of other ways of providing energy such as focussing the sun's rays onto a boiler to provide steam pressure to drive a turbine etc.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes'_screw

[Severian]

Surely this is trivially easy? Take a full plastic bottle of water, make a small hole in the cap, then clamp the bottle in a vice with the cap pointing up. Twist the vice handle a few times (this is the initial "kick" of energy) and the pressure will shoot water out the top for a while. The smaller the hole the longer it takes to equalise pressure, so the longer it lasts.

 

Alternatively place two sheets of glass together, and put them end-up in a bath of water. Capillary action will make the water rise between the sheets.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Severian

[Missbee]

Three questions

 

1. What is passive solar?

2. Can the water go back downhill after it goes uphill?

3. How could gears and springs possibly help with water?

 

1. Passive solar is simply using the heat that comes from the sun without anything fancy (i.e. no panels or batteries)

2. Yes the water can definitely run back down. In my original design the returning water added to the momentum that ran the fountain and in all of my designs water coming back down is the main reason for the invention.

3. There are many who have said that what I want to do defies the second law of thermodynamics and is therefore impossible (which is quite untrue) so I added the springs and gears option. My theory is that the fountain could be built like a clock. Though it is not 100% true to my original idea, a water clock of sorts would satisfy.

 

How about ...

 

Hero's Fountain

 

 

 

Most excellent! In all my years of asking scientists you are the first to be aware of this device. I learned of the 1800s version when I presented my project to a farmer at a 4H Jimmy Pop engine convention (as one would expect from farmers the "convention" was in an empty lot in the middle of a small town).

 

Now that we have a prior version of the fountain on the table, let's see if we can expand the design - my ideal design is for this to work with water wheels instead of tanks.

 

 

Of course you realise that it will take energy to lift water to a higher level. You therefore need a mechanism and a source of energy. The mechanism could be an Archimedes screw. If you are raising water from a running stream or river then the flow of water can provide the required energy via a submerged propeller or water wheel. I'm sure you can think of other ways of providing energy such as focussing the sun's rays onto a boiler to provide steam pressure to drive a turbine etc.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes'_screw

 

I have a sudden desire to study Archimedes! I don't think the screw, however, qualifies here as one needs to put in constant energy to get the water to flow. What we need here is a short investment followed by a more prolonged return. But then again perhaps I've misunderstood A's screw.

 

As for using the sun to create the steam to drive a turbine - has this been done? For my purposes I would have to say that turbines aren't allowed, but am fascinated by the consept.

 

Surely this is trivially easy? Take a full plastic bottle of water, make a small hole in the cap, then clamp the bottle in a vice with the cap pointing up. Twist the vice handle a few times (this is the initial "kick" of energy) and the pressure will shoot water out the top for a while. The smaller the hole the longer it takes to equalise pressure, so the longer it lasts.

 

Alternatively place two sheets of glass together, and put them end-up in a bath of water. Capillary action will make the water rise between the sheets.

 

Indeed, indeed. Capillary action is one of the things that told me that my invention was quite possible but it doesn't get me to where I want to go, which is to some sort of fountain (which I decided not to note when initially presenting my challenge to the forum).

 

The bottle with a small hole in a vice totally on point and super basic. Have to say I feel pretty dim not having thought of it. It is as a simple way to point out that what I want is totally doable.

 

So what's the next step - how does this get taken to the next level of creativity, artistry and sophistication?

Edited July 22, 2012 by Missbee

[Joatmon]

Sun driven steam turbines certainly are a practical proposition.

 

http://cba.mit.edu/e....energy/sun.pdf

[Missbee]

Sun driven steam turbines certainly are a practical proposition.

 

http://cba.mit.edu/e....energy/sun.pdf

 

 

I didn't think turbines were an option for this particular project, but what you show well falls within the broad requirements.

[ewmon]

Most excellent! In all my years of asking scientists you are the first to be aware of this device. I learned of the 1800s version when I presented my project to a farmer at a 4H Jimmy Pop engine convention (as one would expect from farmers the "convention" was in an empty lot in the middle of a small town).

 

Now that we have a prior version of the fountain on the table, let's see if we can expand the design - my ideal design is for this to work with water wheels instead of tanks.

That's easy, one water wheel is driven by the water dropping from a reservoir that turns another wheel that lifts some water from the same reservoir.

 

In the same sense, we have had the hydraulic ram around for centuries with only a couple of moving parts that does the same thing ... takes the energy from falling water to lift some water.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWqDurunnK8

 

or an even simpler pulser pump without any moving parts