Remote Viewing

[Nelson]

SO people, despite our scientific understanding, there was still huge investment and some irrefutable evidence surrounding the topic or remote viewing.. do you believe in the possibility of this ability?

 

i dont class this as a nonsense question and the sheer scale of government funding spent on its investigation (supposedly stopped, although i think not) would suggest it holds some water

[Tres Juicy]

SO people, despite our scientific understanding, there was still huge investment and some irrefutable evidence surrounding the topic or remote viewing.. do you believe in the possibility of this ability?

 

i dont class this as a nonsense question and the sheer scale of government funding spent on its investigation (supposedly stopped, although i think not) would suggest it holds some water

 

Would you care to share this evidence mr Nelson?

 

I certainly haven't seen anything I would call "irrefutable".

 

Also there are many examples of governments wasting money on dead ends, the amount of money spent is no indication of the validity of the subject (only that governments are just as susceptable to bias and "wishful thinking" as anyone.

[Nelson]

well the experiments seen real results mate in many government reports throughout the cold war and the cia had so called remote viewing agents up until 91 . while most were undoubtedly fruitless there is too much smoke for there to be no fire. from submarine based experiments to the machine that is shielded yet shows fluctuations around major events ie twin towers and global boom /crash etc. while im still out with the jury on psychic happenings as they appear to be spiritualists or cold readers, i dont believe the senses we all understand are the only ones we posess and the may be something to it. i trawled the net and released governent files and cant rule it out as easily as you seem to be able to. science is to question, not to dismiss pal

[Bignose]

science is to question, not to dismiss pal

 

and science was questioning your use of the word 'irrefutable'. What you've posted here is very refutable so far. You say 'many government reports' -- care to actually cite some of them? You know, so that the rest of us can look at these original sources you say have evidence?

 

Also, science does dismiss. Science would dismiss the notion that a herd of invisible unicorns live in my backyard. Until I presented evidence of that, of course.

 

As a default, science dismisses anything where insufficient evidence is presented. That is simply because science doesn't take anything on anybody's word alone. Does this make is very conservative? Absolutely. But, the onus is on people to provide solid, objective, compelling evidence in support of ideas.

 

Lastly, I do agree that science doesn't know everything. Many, many open questions at this time. But, don't confuse the fact that science doesn't have all the answers with a default stance to just believe in things like remote viewing. If anything, as I wrote above, with sketchy evidence, the default is to not believe something. That doesn't mean it doesn't warrant further investigation -- it just means that without compelling evidence, disbelief is the default state.

[Ringer]

well the experiments seen real results mate in many government reports throughout the cold war and the cia had so called remote viewing agents up until 91 . while most were undoubtedly fruitless there is too much smoke for there to be no fire. from submarine based experiments to the machine that is shielded yet shows fluctuations around major events ie twin towers and global boom /crash etc. while im still out with the jury on psychic happenings as they appear to be spiritualists or cold readers, i dont believe the senses we all understand are the only ones we posess and the may be something to it. i trawled the net and released governent files and cant rule it out as easily as you seem to be able to. science is to question, not to dismiss pal

 

There haven't been any experiments done that have been able to be replicated. No matter what you are studying you are going to get positive results by chance alone if you do enough experiments. Psychics, read: frauds, trick people all the time into believing they have powers. Not because they do, but because it's easy to be vague, to trick people, etc. if you want to.

 

Not to mention the governments of the world have a pretty crap record at telling real science from pseudoscience or wishful thinking.

[Ophiolite]

i trawled the net and released governent files and cant rule it out as easily as you seem to be able to. science is to question, not to dismiss pal

So, as asked by others, where are these released files? You are making the claim, the onus is on you to produce, or retract. Do you understand that, pal?

[Tres Juicy]

well the experiments seen real results mate in many government reports throughout the cold war and the cia had so called remote viewing agents up until 91 . while most were undoubtedly fruitless there is too much smoke for there to be no fire. from submarine based experiments to the machine that is shielded yet shows fluctuations around major events ie twin towers and global boom /crash etc. while im still out with the jury on psychic happenings as they appear to be spiritualists or cold readers, i dont believe the senses we all understand are the only ones we posess and the may be something to it. i trawled the net and released governent files and cant rule it out as easily as you seem to be able to. science is to question, not to dismiss pal

 

 

Throughout the cold war the were huge propaganda campaigns, the US government were responding to soviet propaganda (where the soviets were feeding misinformation about "remote viewing" to the US).

 

Of course the US (thinking that the soviets had already done it) wanted to show that they also had remote viewing capability, it was part of the propaganda war.

 

Remember, they also spent a great deal of time and money trying to teach soldiers to kill goats by staring at them...

 

EDIT: Evidence is the key here, in order to make a compelling argument you will need some.

 

"Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence"

Edited July 23, 2012 by Tres Juicy

[Nelson]

The evidence is freely available along with the proof of propaganda. I think in the case of something we don't know or understand,you are missing the point I would simply like to pose the question of its possibility, not obtain numerous debunk information based on your perception pal . Your perception is as unenlightened as anyone else. There were people tested and undefeatedp a 60 year period and unfortunately you must accept that either the hundreds of people employed in the field, their story,and the money spent on it was wrong or your own perception and understanding is wrong . An area of science where very little is told to us and very few theories arise... Left to metaphysics and psionics. I'm not asking you to believe in magic spells pal. Just open your mind to the possibility and discuss it. Don't try debunking it with zero knowledge or experience on it

 

im not trying to like Rv to psychic powers or david blane.

so lets dismiss metaphysics and psionics completely??

 

There haven't been any experiments done that have been able to be replicated. No matter what you are studying you are going to get positive results by chance alone if you do enough experiments. Psychics, read: frauds, trick people all the time into believing they have powers. Not because they do, but because it's easy to be vague, to trick people, etc. if you want to.

 

Not to mention the governments of the world have a pretty crap record at telling real science from pseudoscience or wishful thinking.

 

 

 

 

So, as asked by others, where are these released files? You are making the claim, the onus is on you to produce, or retract. Do you understand that, pal?

 

First of all, you are not my pal, so please take your poorly understood, derogatory use of the phrase between two "actual" mates and do one PAL.

 

 

i came here posing a question as a well read man with no more and no less understanding of the science of metaphysics and psionics than anyone else here. its an area of science people like yourself easily dismiss because its not understood. After reading a lot and watching a lot of videos, and reading about psionics uses and understandings I feel its not a subject you can just ignore. In MY perception the pro psionics argument is as poorly tarnished as the anti ......

My argument is that Stargate, MK Ultra and SRI were not just funded wastes of time. they involved REAL scientists and had SOME real results in an as yet, reasonable untouched area of science. I didnt come with tales of fairies, magic, psycic power or gold bearing leprechauns and as such i dont need a lesson on how to phrase myself in the proper manner to pedantic scientist dismissives. My reference to experiments and files relate to declassifed documents from MOD and CIA and following such highly funded work over (in my opinion) way too long a time to see if something really exists or not http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/CIA-InitiatedRV.html

 

i simply wanted to hear opinions not a backlash or debunk material based on your perception of science. everything we perceive is just a perception. some people hear things that arent there.i want to shed light on something NONE of us really understand because its not taught.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl9Qpv5MDmQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player this field is the general line of enquiry

 

The evidence is freely available along with the proof of propaganda. I think in the case of something we don't know or understand,you are missing the point I would simply like to pose the question of its possibility, not obtain numerous debunk information based on your perception pal . Your perception is as unenlightened as anyone else. There were people tested and undefeatedp a 60 year period and unfortunately you must accept that either the hundreds of people employed in the field, their story,and the money spent on it was wrong or your own perception and understanding is wrong . An area of science where very little is told to us and very few theories arise... Left to metaphysics and psionics. I'm not asking you to believe in magic spells pal. Just open your mind to the possibility and discuss it. Don't try debunking it with zero knowledge or experience on it

 

im not trying to like Rv to psychic powers or david blane.

so lets dismiss metaphysics and psionics completely??

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

First of all, you are not my pal, so please take your poorly understood, derogatory use of the phrase between two "actual" mates and do one PAL.

 

 

i came here posing a question as a well read man with no more and no less understanding of the science of metaphysics and psionics than anyone else here. its an area of science people like yourself easily dismiss because its not understood. After reading a lot and watching a lot of videos, and reading about psionics uses and understandings I feel its not a subject you can just ignore. In MY perception the pro psionics argument is as poorly tarnished as the anti ......

My argument is that Stargate, MK Ultra and SRI were not just funded wastes of time. they involved REAL scientists and had SOME real results in an as yet, reasonable untouched area of science. I didnt come with tales of fairies, magic, psycic power or gold bearing leprechauns and as such i dont need a lesson on how to phrase myself in the proper manner to pedantic scientist dismissives. My reference to experiments and files relate to declassifed documents from MOD and CIA and following such highly funded work over (in my opinion) way too long a time to see if something really exists or not http://www.biomindsu...nitiatedRV.html

 

i simply wanted to hear opinions not a backlash or debunk material based on your perception of science. everything we perceive is just a perception. some people hear things that arent there.i want to shed light on something NONE of us really understand because its not taught.

 

 

 

[Ophiolite]

First of all, you are not my pal, so please take your poorly understood, derogatory use of the phrase between two "actual" mates and do one PAL.

Assuredly you are not my pal. In the context of the post where you address Ringer (?) your use of pal comes across as snide and aggressive. Poor understanding is more often accounted for by poor writing than by poor reading.

 

i came here posing a question as a well read man with no more and no less understanding of the science of metaphysics and psionics than anyone else here.

Please do not make unwarranted assumptions about the extent of my knowledge in this area. Now where is the evidence that would demonstrate your knowledge in the area?

 

its an area of science people like yourself easily dismiss because its not understood.

You have no idea what 'people like myself' are. People like myself have read extensively in this area. People like myself have explored the possibilities, not only through reading, but via experiment. People like myself have dismissed these ideas because there was no meaningful evidence to support the ideas.

 

After reading a lot and watching a lot of videos, and reading about psionics uses and understandings I feel its not a subject you can just ignore. In MY perception the pro psionics argument is as poorly tarnished as the anti ......

Your perception seems to be flawed. Where is the evidence to support this view?

 

My argument is that Stargate, MK Ultra and SRI were not just funded wastes of time. they involved REAL scientists and had SOME real results in an as yet, reasonable untouched area of science.

No one, that I can see, is questioning that research was carried out, by real scientists. Real scientists also investigated phlogiston. What is in dispute is the outcome of that research. Where is your evidence?

 

I didnt come with tales of fairies, magic, psycic power or gold bearing leprechauns and as such i dont need a lesson on how to phrase myself in the proper manner to pedantic scientist dismissives.

I didn't tell you how to phrase yourself. I asked you for evidence. You are running round the houses with all kinds of irrelevance, when all you are being asked for is the evidence.

 

If you don't want to be dismissed by a pedantic scientist don't talk bollocks and do front up with the evidence.

 

My reference to experiments and files relate to declassifed documents from MOD and CIA and following such highly funded work over (in my opinion) way too long a time to see if something really exists or not http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/CIA-InitiatedRV.html

Finally. I'll look at it.

 

i simply wanted to hear opinions not a backlash or debunk material based on your perception of science. everything we perceive is just a perception. some people hear things that arent there.i want to shed light on something NONE of us really understand because its not taught.

You wanted an opinion? My opinion is the backlash was appropriate; the debunking necessary. Everything we perceive is just a perception. Give me a frigging break. There is a methodology in science that can overcome the dangers of perception and perspective. Your naive approach breaches that methodology and should be challenged.

 

If you wanted calm, considerate analysis of your ideas you should have presented them with evidential support for comment, not in the manner of a gullible pseudoscientist.

[Tres Juicy]

The evidence is freely available along with the proof of propaganda. I think in the case of something we don't know or understand,you are missing the point I would simply like to pose the question of its possibility, not obtain numerous debunk information based on your perception pal . Your perception is as unenlightened as anyone else. There were people tested and undefeatedp a 60 year period and unfortunately you must accept that either the hundreds of people employed in the field, their story,and the money spent on it was wrong or your own perception and understanding is wrong . An area of science where very little is told to us and very few theories arise... Left to metaphysics and psionics. I'm not asking you to believe in magic spells pal. Just open your mind to the possibility and discuss it. Don't try debunking it with zero knowledge or experience on it

 

im not trying to like Rv to psychic powers or david blane.

so lets dismiss metaphysics and psionics completely??

 

First of all, you are not my pal, so please take your poorly understood, derogatory use of the phrase between two "actual" mates and do one PAL.

 

i came here posing a question as a well read man with no more and no less understanding of the science of metaphysics and psionics than anyone else here. its an area of science people like yourself easily dismiss because its not understood. After reading a lot and watching a lot of videos, and reading about psionics uses and understandings I feel its not a subject you can just ignore. In MY perception the pro psionics argument is as poorly tarnished as the anti ......

My argument is that Stargate, MK Ultra and SRI were not just funded wastes of time. they involved REAL scientists and had SOME real results in an as yet, reasonable untouched area of science. I didnt come with tales of fairies, magic, psycic power or gold bearing leprechauns and as such i dont need a lesson on how to phrase myself in the proper manner to pedantic scientist dismissives. My reference to experiments and files relate to declassifed documents from MOD and CIA and following such highly funded work over (in my opinion) way too long a time to see if something really exists or not http://www.biomindsu...nitiatedRV.html

 

i simply wanted to hear opinions not a backlash or debunk material based on your perception of science. everything we perceive is just a perception. some people hear things that arent there.i want to shed light on something NONE of us really understand because its not taught.

 

http://www.youtube.c...be_gdata_player this field is the general line of enquiry

 

 

This isn't people having a go at you, this is the scientific method at work.

 

Any claims made must be backed up with evidence - if you want to discuss a subject and you have cited evidence, you need to show it.

 

That is the only way to have an informed discussion of the subject.

 

Admittedly, you have posted this in speculations and that allows for more speculative threads but we cannot ignore the scientific method as it is a very powerful tool in overcoming human perception bias and getting to the facts.

 

http://en.wikipedia....ientific_method

 

Always cite evidence and references and don't think that because someone doesn't agree with you or asks for more evidence that they are attacking you.

 

In science nothing is sacred, everything is to be scrutinized and picked apart. It's part of why it works so well.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Tres Juicy

[CaptainPanic]

!

Moderator Note

Nelson, we're all each other's pals on this forum. And even if that is not true, we want people to use such polite words that we don't even notice who are pals and who are not. To read more about how to behave here, you can check our forum rules and especially the etiquette.

Don't reply to this moderator note. If you have any issues with this moderator note, take it up with the staff through the report button.

[Ringer]

The evidence is freely available along with the proof of propaganda. I think in the case of something we don't know or understand,you are missing the point I would simply like to pose the question of its possibility, not obtain numerous debunk information based on your perception pal . Your perception is as unenlightened as anyone else.

 

So you don't know where the evidence is well enough to give us sources? I'll do some of the work for you:

 

http://www.mod.uk/De...moteViewing.htm

http://web.archive.o...6_monroe1.shtml

http://skepdic.com/remotevw.html

http://en.wikipedia..../Remote_viewing

 

As I said before, there were some positive results, mostly due to poor methods, but remote viewing is not a reality so far as we can tell.

 

There were people tested and undefeatedp a 60 year period and unfortunately you must accept that either the hundreds of people employed in the field, their story,and the money spent on it was wrong or your own perception and understanding is wrong . An area of science where very little is told to us and very few theories arise... Left to metaphysics and psionics. I'm not asking you to believe in magic spells pal. Just open your mind to the possibility and discuss it. Don't try debunking it with zero knowledge or experience on it

 

Science doesn't accept payroll, anecdotes, or popular vote as evidence. The reason science has little to do with this area is because the area is a dead end. There have been experiments in the field and they don't lead to anything.

 

 

[edit]

I also want to add that if a scientist found strong reproducible evidence of remote viewing, or any other kind of psychic ability, they would be extremely famous and pretty much set for life. As such extensive research was done in the 70s and 80s and no good evidence was found any psychic ability exists, including remote viewing. To assume scientists haven't tried to test the validity of these claims or that they would try to hide the results is simply not true. Something like this would be pretty difficult to hide unless the people who have the ability actively try to trick the scientists, which isn't too hard to do, into believing they didn't have the ability. [/edit]

Edited July 23, 2012 by Ringer