zapatos Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 4 minutes ago, dimreepr said: How's that working out? You really don't know? Quote You can't persuade people to give up something you aren't prepared to give up and you can't force them to understand why it's different for you. What is it you think I'm trying to persuade people to give up that I'm not prepared to give up myself? I feel like you haven't read anything I've written. This thread is getting so tiring. I've never asked anyone to give up their guns. I've asked for new restrictions on guns to an extent that we can minimize undo risk to the public. Something I am willing to advocate for and abide by. Quote But you have to understand if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. And that statement sums it up in a nutshell. "You are for us or against us. Our way or the highway. Love it or leave it." As I said before, it does not seem to be enough that I support gun control. I must support it in a way dictated by others. Otherwise I'm seen as part of the problem. Your approach doesn't work on me and I suspect it won't work on many others. You and others here are why gun nuts think that your end game is a ban on guns. And which is one of the main reasons the NRA takes such a hard line. They get the feeling that no matter what they give up it won't be enough until guns are gone. And I now realize that even though I said I'd stop responding to this crap I'm doing it again. Fuck. 1
rangerx Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 12 minutes ago, zapatos said: I don't believe we will be successful gathering allies by telling our potential allies what they should do. People need to be told what not to do. We tell people not to speed, even though the majority of speeders don't cause accidents. Your country bans immigrants even though most don't terrorize. All too often in America if the topic is "we", the response is "me" or visa versa. Double standards and whataboutism. When the failure to recognize the differences between the rights of the individual and the rights of the group, the discussion is confounded. Instead a shithole gets dug. 6 minutes ago, zapatos said: You and others here are why gun nuts think that your end game is a ban on guns. Not one person here suggested a total ban. Your comment is ad hominem and outright false. 2
Moontanman Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 7 minutes ago, rangerx said: People need to be told what not to do. We tell people not to speed, even though the majority of speeders don't cause accidents. Your country bans immigrants even though most don't terrorize. All too often in America if the topic is "we", the response is "me" or visa versa. Double standards and whataboutism. When the failure to recognize the differences between the rights of the individual and the rights of the group, the discussion is confounded. Instead a shithole gets dug. Do I detect a little hostility towards the USA here?
rangerx Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 1 minute ago, Moontanman said: Do I detect a little hostility towards the USA here? WTF does that have to do with the OP? 1
Moontanman Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 Just now, rangerx said: WTF does that have to do with the OP? It has to do with your silly statements like the "USA should know better" "your country bans immigrants" what do these things have to do with the OP? Sound more like bashing the USA to me...
rangerx Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 Oh so your country knows better on every score? Your country doesn't ban immigrants? Gaslight much? -1
Ten oz Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 25 minutes ago, Moontanman said: If it becomes illegal to own an assault rifle the value of the ones already in circulation will skyrocket many times their initial cost. This happened last time their sale was banned. It's quite a lot like the stock market in this way.. Why would this be a problem? If the price greatly inflated I'd imagine less High School students would have the money to get their hands on one.
dimreepr Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 3 minutes ago, zapatos said: You really don't know? Well, yes I do... it isn't; correct me if I'm wrong. 6 minutes ago, zapatos said: Something I am willing to advocate for and abide by. But not willing to give up your guns for. 8 minutes ago, zapatos said: And that statement sums it up in a nutshell. "You are for us or against us. Our way or the highway. Love it or leave it." As I said before, it does not seem to be enough that I support gun control. I must support it in a way dictated by others. Otherwise I'm seen as part of the problem. Not at all, like I said keep your guns by all means, but don't be surprised if they end up killing someone. 11 minutes ago, zapatos said: Your approach doesn't work on me and I suspect it won't work on many others. Like I said pious means different things to different people but at the end of the day, it means pretense; You did say you're willing to give up your guns to save a life and I showed you a method of doing just that with a statistical certainty.
Ten oz Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 1 minute ago, dimreepr said: Not at all, like I said keep your guns by all means, but don't be surprised if they end up killing someone. Right, we are all suppose to sit down politely and focus on what we agree on with the caveat what we agree doesn't require any change.
zapatos Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 17 minutes ago, rangerx said: People need to be told what not to do. We tell people not to speed, even though the majority of speeders don't cause accidents. Your country bans immigrants even though most don't terrorize. In order to get a law passed that says you cannot do something (like buy and AR-15) you must first convince legislators to pass that law. Quote Not one person here suggested a total ban. Your comment is ad hominem and outright false. I didn't say anyone suggested a total ban. I said that some people here are why gun nuts think they want a ban on guns. As I didn't attack anyone I don't see how it could be an ad hominem. It is not outright false. Even I think some people here ultimately want a ban. 1
Moontanman Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 Just now, Ten oz said: Why would this be a problem? If the price greatly inflated I'd imagine less High School students would have the money to get their hands on one. It would not be the problem but I know people who buy up things like assault rifles speculating they will be more valuable in the future. These people then sell their guns in the private market where there is no no checks at all. Think of it this way, back in the 80s and 90s there was a problem with motorcycles, teen aged boys were buying these rocket ships and dying on the way home. They were very expensive and should have stopped this but young boys can make money and can get enough to pay cash for $10,000 motorcycle. It was crazy but it resulted in a special drivers license for motorcyclists so someone who had no training couldn't buy one of these widow makers..
zapatos Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 10 minutes ago, Moontanman said: It has to do with your silly statements like the "USA should know better" "your country bans immigrants" what do these things have to do with the OP? Sound more like bashing the USA to me... Agreed.
Moontanman Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 6 minutes ago, rangerx said: Oh so your country knows better on every score? Your country doesn't ban immigrants? Gaslight much? Ranger, I don't know who you are or where you are from but this thread is not about the moral behavior of one country over another. Please tell me where you live and I'll se if I can come up with some derogatory insinuations for you that have nothing to do with the problem...
zapatos Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, Ten oz said: Right, we are all suppose to sit down politely and focus on what we agree on with the caveat what we agree doesn't require any change. You guys are so full of shit. Now you've stooped to outright falsehoods. Why won't new gun laws that I agree to, cause any change for me? You, dimreepr, and John keep suggesting I give up my guns, and then rangerx is shocked that I think people might get the impression that you guys would like people to give up their guns. This is a new low for you Ten oz.
Ten oz Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 7 minutes ago, Moontanman said: Think of it this way
rangerx Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, Moontanman said: Ranger, I don't know who you are or where you are from but this thread is not about the moral behavior of one country over another. Please tell me where you live and I'll se if I can come up with some derogatory insinuations for you that have nothing to do with the problem... If you cannot deduce where I am from, you haven't been paying attention. Fill your boots with all the off topic derogatory comments about me and my country as you please. I'm sure the mods will have something to say about that. -1
Moontanman Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, rangerx said: If you cannot deduce where I am from, you haven't been paying attention. Fill your boots with all the off topic derogatory comments about me and my country as you please. I'm sure the mods will have something to say about that. You're on! The reason I do not know what country you are from is because it's not because I haven't read what you posted but anyone who uses the tactics you do are not honest and where you are from and it's superiority or lack thereof doesn't matter in this discussion anymore than the morals of the US in things outside gun control have any place here... Edited February 18, 2018 by Moontanman
dimreepr Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, zapatos said: You guys are so full of shit. Now you've stooped to outright falsehoods. Why won't new gun laws that I agree to, cause any change for me? You, dimreepr, and John keep suggesting I give up my guns, and then rangerx is shocked that I think people might get the impression that you guys would like people to give up their guns. 3 The only thing I've actually suggested in terms of gun control is to limit the number of bullets available to fire before reloading.
iNow Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 FFS. Knock it off. This is why this: X-posted w dim
Moontanman Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 1 minute ago, dimreepr said: The only thing I've actually suggested in terms of gun control is to limit the number of bullets available to fire before reloading. And as I and others have said that is a reasonable direction...
Ten oz Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, zapatos said: You guys are so full of shit. Now you've stooped to outright falsehoods. Why won't new gun laws that I agree to, cause any change for me? You, dimreepr, and John keep suggesting I give up my guns, and then rangerx is shocked that I think people might get the impression that you guys would like people to give up their guns. This is a new low for you Ten oz. I haven't suggested you give up what you already have. I have suggested you stop continuing to support the industry with your money. The industry is using your money to lobby against the policy you claim to support. You ignoring how that is a major part of the problem. If all the responsible gun owners in the U.S. that support change took even a single year off from buying more guns, ammunition, spending money are ranges, and etc the economic impact would force change.
Moontanman Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 Just now, Ten oz said: I haven't suggested you give up what you already have. I have suggested you stop continuing to support the industry with your money. The industry is using your money to lobby against the policy you claim to support. You ignoring how that is a major part of the problem. If all the responsible gun owners in the U.S. that support change took even a single year off from buying more guns, ammunition, spending money are ranges, and etc the economic impact would force change. Ten oz, if you were in the ocean would you not urinate because it would pollute? My guns purchases are miniscule, if everyone like me or Zapatos refused to buy the gun industry wouldn't notice...
iNow Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 2 hours ago, zapatos said: Amazing how such strong support translates into such minimal action. House and senate leadership merely need to let a vote happen, but have been spineless slaves. The support is there and legislators are ready, but one or two people have the bottleneck clamped tightly shut and won’t allow even an attempt at passage. 1
Ten oz Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 1 minute ago, Moontanman said: Ten oz, if you were in the ocean would you not urinate because it would pollute? My guns purchases are miniscule, if everyone like me or Zapatos refused to buy the gun industry wouldn't notice... Urine doesn't pollute the Ocean. The seas are full of fish and mammals defecating. It is a natural part of the ecosystem. A better analogy would be tossing a plastic bottle in the Ocean. A single plastic bottle is minuscule yet because so many people toss plastic bottles in the Ocean it has become a very serious problem.
Moontanman Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Ten oz said: Urine doesn't pollute the Ocean. The seas are full of fish and mammals defecating. It is a natural part of the ecosystem. A better analogy would be tossing a plastic bottle in the Ocean. A single plastic bottle is minuscule yet because so many people toss plastic bottles in the Ocean it has become a very serious problem. You are really clueless aren't you... If one person urinates in the ocean it's nothing but if an entire country pumps their sewage in it can and has done huge amounts of damage. When you attack a problem you do not start with the smallest things, those things are usually out of your control and stopping them would be meaningless. You go for the biggest problem. Me stopping my purchases of ammo will have no effect, and yes that is the extent of my support for the gun lobby. I cannot and would not buy large numbers of guns or ammo. I have no need of them and no reason to buy them... Edited February 18, 2018 by Moontanman
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