Yay, GUNS!

[Ten oz]

44 minutes ago, Strange said:

But in countries where sales/ownership of guns has been strictly controlled or just banned, it has solved the problem. Despite the inevitable existence of a criminal black market for guns.

There are far too many real world examples to look at for there to be any reasonable whatabout argument to be made regarding the black market. It is an example of people simply not letting facts get in the way of their beliefs. Here in the U.S. we had an outbreak of mass shootings involving machine guns in the lat 20's and early 30's. The National Firearms Act was passed banning fully automatic weapons and the mass shootings stopped for several decades until assault weapons came along.

[Raider5678]

1 hour ago, Strange said:

It is the easy access to weapons that is the problem.

 

Exactly.

 

1 hour ago, Strange said:

I assume there is already a black market (for illegal and/or untraceable weapons, for example).

But in countries where sales/ownership of guns has been strictly controlled or just banned, it has solved the problem.

 

 

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

Every obstacle you remove, they will put up another one. I'm waiting for the sound of crickets...

 

13 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

That being said, I'm not saying we shouldn't restrict assault weapons.

 

 

I'm not sure where there's a disconnect. Somewhere along the lines, you guys are interpreting what I'm saying as being against gun control, restricting assault weapons, etc, by saying it won't work.

That's not what I'm doing, but if we're going to get anywhere we need to find a way to communicate better because this is clearly not working.

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Raider5678

[zapatos]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

It was a rebuttal to the insinuation that the US's intentions are never driven or rationalized by similar sentiments.   

That's what I thought, which is why I asked for some examples of America not following another country's lead, lest they appear weak, which you declined to provide.

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, zapatos said:

That's what I thought, which is why I asked for some examples of America not following another country's lead, lest they appear weak, which you declined to provide.

How is that quantifiable? Has it been explicitly said that that is the reason? But more to the point if that is indeed the reason how is it a legitimate reason?  

 

48 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

I'm not sure where there's a disconnect. Somewhere along the lines, you guys are interpreting what I'm saying as being against gun control, restricting assault weapons, etc, by saying it won't work.

That's not what I'm doing, but if we're going to get anywhere we need to find a way to communicate better because this is clearly not working.

 

As long as you keep throwing up objections to legitimate suggestions of gun control (no-ones suggesting a ban BTW) without a legitimate reason, the disconnect is yours; for instance, in Australia, a gun on the black market costs upwards of $30,000 which kinda puts a crimp on that objection.

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, Raider5678 said:

I'm not sure where there's a disconnect. Somewhere along the lines, you guys are interpreting what I'm saying as being against gun control, restricting assault weapons, etc, by saying it won't work.

That's not what I'm doing, but if we're going to get anywhere we need to find a way to communicate better because this is clearly not working.

You are unwittingly repeating tired and well worn arguments that the gun lobby has used for decades. While you yourself may be for gun control you are repeating the talking points of those who are not. That is where the disconnect lies. 

[zapatos]

On 2/18/2018 at 8:52 PM, rangerx said:

1- A person might not volunteer to go in for treatment if they think it means losing their guns. And I was quite clear that not all mental disorders should be disqualifying. Those who can't be cleared shouldn't have guns. Period. They don't already in many cases, so technically you're already half way there and working towards more, which is a step. A good step.

2- No, I'm saying that being indoctrinated to that train of thought is largely an American problem. I'm not saying everyone does it, but there's a lot of "from my cold dead hands" advocates that instills intransigence into people's heads, especially vulnerable ones. If a Canadian volunteers for mental health assistance, the fact he may not be able to own or use guns doesn't (or very rarely) enter into it. They need to forget the guns and get the help they really need.

3- No. I'm saying too many Americans are indoctrinated that guns are an inalienable right and little else, when they're actually quite regulated already in many ways. A mentally unstable person may be more vulnerable, even subservient to other gun nuts.

5- I'm not ranting against America and I'm not anti American. I'm pointing out glaring holes in your society that frustrates the discussion. The mere fact you just did it by demonizing me as something I'm not, proves my point. Doing so resorted to the lowest common denominator, presented as though I have no place in this discussion. Fail.

My solution has already been presented. I presented a link to Canadian gun laws. They work, very well. The proof is in the pudding. Far be it America would follow another country's lead on fixing problems, lest they appear weak. It would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.

It's not just the gun violence, but the attitude that goes with it that is every bit as insidious, IMHO. I make no bones about it by speaking in harsh terms, but my attitude pales in comparison to that. If you can't sort that out, that's your problem (and your country's problem), not mine.

dimreepr -- Yes, it was explicitly stated. I also couldn't understand how it could be quantifiable and thus felt it sounded more like a baseless accusation. I've since been criticized for thinking that.

Edited February 20, 2018 by zapatos

[rangerx]

42 minutes ago, zapatos said:

That's what I thought, which is why I asked for some examples of America not following another country's lead, lest they appear weak, which you declined to provide.

American exceptionalism

The myth that indoctrinates one's citizens that there's no room for improvement when they already believe they're superior in every way.

If normal, rational folks can't even find a consensus in a non-formal, inconsequential setting, the outlook for any real change is grim.

Like I've said before, America needs to get over itself.

Edited February 20, 2018 by rangerx

[DrP]

41 minutes ago, zapatos said:

That's what I thought, which is why I asked for some examples of America not following another country's lead, lest they appear weak, which you declined to provide.

Pulling out of the Paris climate agreement? The whole world agreed to that. Now, it has to be re-negotiated - presumably costing millions to arrange for all to come up with something that will probably be exactly the same but worded differed, just so the USA don't feel like they are being pushed around. Great.

[rangerx]

3 minutes ago, DrP said:

Pulling out of the Paris climate agreement? The whole world agreed to that. Now, it has to be re-negotiated - presumably costing millions to arrange for all to come up with something that will probably be exactly the same but worded differed, just so the USA don't feel like they are being pushed around. Great.

Excellent example. Thank you.

[zapatos]

4 minutes ago, rangerx said:

Like I've said before, America needs to get over itself.

You realize "America" is not a person, right? That we are composed of many different people with many different views? And that making generalizations about a group of people can be considered bad form?

17 minutes ago, DrP said:

Pulling out of the Paris climate agreement? The whole world agreed to that. Now, it has to be re-negotiated - presumably costing millions to arrange for all to come up with something that will probably be exactly the same but worded differed, just so the USA don't feel like they are being pushed around. Great.

Yes, that was a pretty good example, although I'm sure the conservatives here would not frame it that way.

[dimreepr]

29 minutes ago, DrP said:

Pulling out of the Paris climate agreement? The whole world agreed to that. Now, it has to be re-negotiated - presumably costing millions to arrange for all to come up with something that will probably be exactly the same but worded differed, just so the USA don't feel like they are being pushed around. Great.

To be fair to zap, that's not really an example, it's more about twisted politics and a disingenuous play for economic growth.

Edit/ xposted.

Edited February 20, 2018 by dimreepr

[rangerx]

2 minutes ago, zapatos said:

You realize "America" is not a person, right?

I do realize that and you know it.  Now you're just gaslighting by causing me to question my judgement about something both of us already know to be true.

Which yet again, stipulates to my point.

 

[zapatos]

1 minute ago, rangerx said:

I do realize that and you know it. 

Then why do you keep referring to the whole country as having a single attitude or trait? You either think all Americans need to get over themselves, or you don't mind lumping the ones who do not have bad traits in with those who do have bad traits, simply based on their country of origin. You know, like bigots do.

Would you find it offensive if I suggested Canada was a lawless country simply because some Canadians are lawless?

You keep bitching that I am misrepresenting your attitudes, but you keep displaying the same attitudes over and over.

As I said before, you just don't seem to have any understanding of what people might find offensive.

[dimreepr]

8 minutes ago, rangerx said:

I do realize that and you know it.  Now you're just gaslighting by causing me to question my judgement about something both of us already know to be true.

1

Do you? I'm right because I believe I am 

Critical thinking is the only way to break the confirmation bias loop.

[DrP]

Just now, dimreepr said:

To be fair to zap, that's not really an example, it's more about twisted politics and a disingenuous play for economic growth.

Being fair to all  -  I don't actually agree with this popular US bashing...  I love America and Americans, I feel we have more in common with them and more comradery with them than we do with the Europeans. ...  There are sliding scales..  not all Americans think the same nor do all EU citizens. How though do you wake people up when they are going headstrong in the wrong direction? The whole of the rest of the world (extreme Brexiteers aside) could see Trump for what he is  -  there are no surprises at all with what he says what sides he takes or what he comments about  - no surprises about the nukes he drops....  but half of America still thinks he is great and has their best interests at heart. Probably because they didn't like being told what to do by a black man over the last 8 years. They would rather be conned by a rich and confident old white guy with a smile than be told what to do by a black man who tells them off for polluting and killing each other...  because, er? BENGJAZIII!!!   IRS!!  KENYA!!  MUSLIM!!!      it is totally embarrassing.

Not all Trump supporters or Brexiteers are racist...  but ALL racists are Trump supporters and Brexiteers.  

[rangerx]

1 minute ago, zapatos said:

Then why do you keep referring to the whole country as having a single attitude or trait? You either think all Americans need to get over themselves, or you don't mind lumping the ones who do not have bad traits in with those who do have bad traits, simply based on their country of origin. You know, like bigots do.

Would you find it offensive if I suggested Canada was a lawless country simply because some Canadians are lawless?

You keep bitching that I am misrepresenting your attitudes, but you keep displaying the same attitudes over and over.

As I said before, you just don't seem to have any understanding of what people might find offensive.

IT is not a person FFS. So quit framing it as though I can't see the difference. Now you've spun it to imply I'm a bigot.

Yet again, my point is proven.

[zapatos]

Canada needs to quit molesting children.

[iNow]

Crickets....

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, DrP said:

Being fair to all  -  I don't actually agree with this popular US bashing...  I love America and Americans, I feel we have more in common with them and more comradery with them than we do with the Europeans. ...  There are sliding scales..  not all Americans think the same nor do all EU citizens. How though do you wake people up when they are going headstrong in the wrong direction? The whole of the rest of the world (extreme Brexiteers aside) could see Trump for what he is  -  there are no surprises at all with what he says what sides he takes or what he comments about  - no surprises about the nukes he drops....  but half of America still thinks he is great and has their best interests at heart. Probably because they didn't like being told what to do by a black man over the last 8 years. They would rather be conned by a rich and confident old white guy with a smile than be told what to do by a black man who tells them off for polluting and killing each other...  because, er? BENGJAZIII!!!   IRS!!  KENYA!!  MUSLIM!!!      it is totally embarrassing.

Not all Trump supporters or Brexiteers are racist...  but ALL racists are Trump supporters and Brexiteers.  

3

Indeed it is and if I wasn't so frightened of the path they seek to follow and the future they propose, I'd be pissing myself with laughter.

[DrP]

Just now, zapatos said:

Canada needs to quit molesting children.

I heard a horrific article on the radio last week about forced marriages of young teens in the USA  - Apparently it is legal in some states for the parents of a child as young as 12 or 13 to force them to marry someone.  The article gave an example of a 12 year old that was raped by a man....  who then after consulting with the victims parents agreed to marry her. The girl had no say and had to marry her rapist.   Please tell me I wrong!!!

[rangerx]

3 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Canada needs to quit molesting children.

Now you're just being obtuse.

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, iNow said:

Crickets....

Well, at least there seems to be a little more background noise, hope springs eternal.

[rangerx]

Triggering fails too, btw.

[zapatos]

20 minutes ago, DrP said:

I heard a horrific article on the radio last week about forced marriages of young teens in the USA  - Apparently it is legal in some states for the parents of a child as young as 12 or 13 to force them to marry someone.  The article gave an example of a 12 year old that was raped by a man....  who then after consulting with the victims parents agreed to marry her. The girl had no say and had to marry her rapist.   Please tell me I wrong!!!

Looks like the article was correct, although presented so that it appeared in the worst possible light (as opposed to the miserable light it actually was).

The rapist and victim were members of a church, and after consultations with the church, primarily the mother and the church decided that to avoid scandal (LOL!) they would have them marry. The girl really had no concept of what she was getting into, and the first attempt to get a marriage license was rejected, although some other troglodyte public servant was more than happy to allow the marriage. This was in Florida, home of the most recent school shooting and some pretty archaic laws.

Edited February 20, 2018 by zapatos

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Looks like the article was correct, although presented so that it appeared in the worst possible light (as opposed to the miserable light it actually was).

The rapist and victim were members of a church, and after consultations with the church, primarily the mother and the church decided that to avoid scandal (LOL!) they would have them marry. The girl really had no concept of what she was getting into, and the first attempt to get a marriage license was rejected, although some other troglodyte public servant was more than happy to allow the marriage. This was in Florida, home of the most recent school shooting and some pretty archaic laws.

More on topic, shoot the fucker.