zapatos Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Ah well, I guess, pious means different things to different people... Is every gun owner pious or just me? Am I hypocritical or deeply religious. Adding a little more context to your responses would be helpful. Edited February 17, 2018 by zapatos 1
dimreepr Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 1 minute ago, zapatos said: Is every gun owner pious or just me? I was hoping that every gun owner was not you. Not in a negative way.
John Cuthber Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 40 minutes ago, Moontanman said: I have to ask, you seem to be quite good at pointing out flaws in other peoples ideas. What is the scenario you think should be pursued to achieve reasonable gun control? It seems the first stage is to explain to people that continuing along the same pathways as before (which didn't solve the problem) will not solve the problem. To me that's obvious, and so I rally can't understand how to explain it. If people will not listen (and it seems they won't)*, what can anyone do. Perhaps the problem will eventually get solved when the children who are at schools subject to these attacks grow up and vote in large enough numbers to make a difference. * 59 minutes ago, zapatos said: 1 hour ago, John Cuthber said: If your approach has been shown not to work over the decades then it's not "posting how to solve the problem", it's proposing the status quo. Thank you for your opinion.
Moontanman Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 17 minutes ago, rangerx said: An outright ban will NEVER happen and is only expressed by the minority of advocates, yet it's the excuse of choice by the gun lobby to never discuss any gun control measure, broadly by default not just the minority. It's also an affront to those gun advocates who want to be reasonable in the discussion too and those people need to admonish, not tolerate it. Loudly, broadly. I have no objection to admonishing total bans. With that kind of intransigence sewn into America's fabric, "persuasion" is just a pipe dream. When extremism rules the day, you've lost, irrespective of which side invoked it. What is it about Americans being freaked out about things that affect them the least, yet silent on things that affect them the most? Bad education, hyper-partisan politics and fucked up priorities, is what. I am not so sure this only applies to Americans. One of the most staunch opponents of gun control I ever knew was a Latvian guy I worked with. We did a lot of motorcycle traveling together and he constantly pontificated on the dangers of gun control. He had lived in Latvia as a young boy and his experince with NAZI's made a huge impression on him. He said that when the NAZI's came they simply walked from house to house to pick up everyones guns because they had to register their guns to own one. He would really get worked by any sort of gun control, starting with registering them at all..
zapatos Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, John Cuthber said: It seems the first stage is to explain to people that continuing along the same pathways as before (which didn't solve the problem) will not solve the problem. To me that's obvious, and so I rally can't understand how to explain it. If people will not listen (and it seems they won't)*, what can anyone do. LOL! Of course! The answer was so simple and right in front of our faces the whole time! Problem Solved! Glad you are taking this so seriously John. You always add so much to these conversations.
Moontanman Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 8 minutes ago, John Cuthber said: It seems the first stage is to explain to people that continuing along the same pathways as before (which didn't solve the problem) will not solve the problem. To me that's obvious, and so I rally can't understand how to explain it. If people will not listen (and it seems they won't)*, what can anyone do. Perhaps the problem will eventually get solved when the children who are at schools subject to these attacks grow up and vote in large enough numbers to make a difference. While a regale everyone with how it used to be, I actually took my gun to school with some regularity so we could go quail hunting directly after school in a nearby area, but that is just not workable these days. Far too many people think that rights come before responsibility. I am a gun owner but I know that something needs to be done. I am just not sure how to proceed... 8 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:
zapatos Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 17 minutes ago, dimreepr said: I was hoping that every gun owner was not you. Not in a negative way. I'm just a simple man. I usually work with direct answers to direct questions. Having to interpret the meaning behind your posts is often beyond me. I still have no idea what you are on about.
rangerx Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 13 minutes ago, Moontanman said: I am not so sure this only applies to Americans It doesn't, but if America claims to be an advanced civil society, they ought to know better.
dimreepr Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 8 minutes ago, zapatos said: I'm just a simple man. I usually work with direct answers to direct questions. Having to interpret the meaning behind your posts is often beyond me. I still have no idea what you are on about. I can't be the martyr, I don't have guns...
Moontanman Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 10 minutes ago, rangerx said: It doesn't, but if America claims to be an advanced civil society, they ought to know better. Oh bullshit..
rangerx Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 13 minutes ago, Moontanman said: I am a gun owner but I know that something needs to be done. I am just not sure how to proceed... A very good start, but until you are able to say "we are gun owners, but we know something needs to be done. We are just not sure how to proceed.." is throwing your hands in the air, or just copping out (irrespective of your good intentions). The solution must come from the group at large, not just a collection of some individuals.
zapatos Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 1 hour ago, dimreepr said: you propose to be the martyr and still keep your guns, Show me where I did this. Perhaps then I'll know what you are talking about.
Ten oz Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 15 minutes ago, rangerx said: An outright ban will NEVER happen and only expressed by the minority I have actually never heard anyone advocate for a full on ban of all guns. I do not doubt such calls exist but they are so rare I cannot think of a single Politician, Pundit, Community Leader, or etc who has asked for a full ban on all guns. Which it is part of my point about the tone of this debate. We aren't debating between two extremes: full gun ban (-10) vs unlimited access(+10). Debate is happening from a place where gun ownership is already assured. The sticking points are over whether or not we'll have background checks and what not. If a Zero is middle between the extremes listed above current discussion is between +5 and +10. No matter what the solution is hammered out the unlimited access side will be getting way more of what they want.
rangerx Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 1 minute ago, Moontanman said: Oh bullshit.. Whataboutism fail.
Moontanman Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, rangerx said: A very good start, but until you are able to say "we are gun owners, but we know something needs to be done. We are just not sure how to proceed.." is throwing your hands in the air, or just copping out (irrespective of your good intentions). The solution must come from the group at large, not just a collection of some individuals. Change always starts with individuals, groups are made up of individuals, as individuals we have to agree on where we stand or throwing up our hands is the result..
rangerx Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, Moontanman said: Change always starts with individuals, groups are made up of individuals, as individuals we have to agree on where we stand or throwing up our hands is the result.. Again very true, but one must participate in the race, not quit at starting gate and declare the event never happened.
Moontanman Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, rangerx said: Again very true, but one must participate in the race, not quit at starting gate and declare the event never happened. Who has suggested that? Not me for sure...
rangerx Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Moontanman said: Who has suggested that? Not me for sure... I said "one" not you. This isn't personal or an affront. I agree with your principles and suggesting an approach to addressing them because you've admitted being uncertain of solutions. I also agree with your comment that a shotgun is the best weapon of choice for home security. Edited February 17, 2018 by rangerx
Ten oz Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 19 minutes ago, Moontanman said: Change always starts with individuals, groups are made up of individuals, as individuals we have to agree on where we stand or throwing up our hands is the result.. I wish individuals agreeing was always the origin of change. It was national disagreement over Vietnam that ended U.S. participation. Close to the same time frame the South broadly rejected desegregation. Military soldiers had the escort children to school. George Wallace ran for President on Segregation forever and won 5 states outright and nearly 14% of the popular vote. Sometimes one side or the other just loses. Neat and tidy agreements where middle ground is found hasn't always prevailed. It is what we should strive for when possible but it isn't always possible.
John Cuthber Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, zapatos said: 1 hour ago, John Cuthber said: It seems the first stage is to explain to people that continuing along the same pathways as before (which didn't solve the problem) will not solve the problem. To me that's obvious, and so I rally can't understand how to explain it. If people will not listen (and it seems they won't)*, what can anyone do. LOL! Of course! The answer was so simple and right in front of our faces the whole time! Problem Solved! Glad you are taking this so seriously John. You always add so much to these conversations. You forgot to quote the bit where I suggested a possible way forward. It looks like the schoolkids might just be the ones who bring about change. Edited February 17, 2018 by John Cuthber
zapatos Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 10 minutes ago, John Cuthber said: You forgot to quote the bit where I suggested a possible way forward. It looks like the schoolkids might just be the ones who bring about change. You mean this part... "Perhaps the problem will eventually get solved when the children who are at schools subject to these attacks grow up and vote in large enough numbers to make a difference" ...where we do nothing and leave it for the next generation? I didn't think you were serious. After criticizing my approach I assumed you had a solution that we could start now and involved us. Given the choice between my approach and your approach I think I'll continue to look for solutions myself and not wait for people who can't even vote yet.
Ten oz Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 12 minutes ago, zapatos said: I didn't think you were serious. After criticizing my approach I assumed you had a solution that we could start now and involved us. Most kids in High School today will be voting age in 2020. Some will be/are voting age for the midterm this year. It can start now and can involve us.
John Cuthber Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 2 hours ago, zapatos said: You mean this part... "Perhaps the problem will eventually get solved when the children who are at schools subject to these attacks grow up and vote in large enough numbers to make a difference" ...where we do nothing and leave it for the next generation? I didn't think you were serious. After criticizing my approach I assumed you had a solution that we could start now and involved us. Given the choice between my approach and your approach I think I'll continue to look for solutions myself and not wait for people who can't even vote yet. No, I didn't (and don't) have a magic solution- and it's puzzling that you assumed I had one but didn't share it. However it still seemed sensible to point out that claiming that we already had a solution- even though we know it hasn't worked- is counterproductive, since it might lull people into a false sense of security. Your approach was to say you would give up your guns- and then not actually do so. I'm not sure that my way isn't better since at least it might work eventually.
zapatos Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, John Cuthber said: Your approach was to say you would give up your guns- and then not actually do so. No it wasn't. My approach was: Quote I think everyone can agree on two things: The 2nd Amendment is here to stay for now, and no kids should die from firearms. So let's find things that a majority on both sides can get behind that recognize those two truths (e.g. Gun owner must have a secure location for their guns; Universal background checks....) and attack those issue in a unified manner. Save the really contentious issues for later and quit spinning our wheels with them. Let's get SOMETHING done that will save some lives, and build on that.
Ten oz Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, zapatos said: So let's find things that a majority on both sides can get behind that recognize those two truths (e.g. Gun owner must have a secure location for their guns; Universal background checks....) As spoken by so many after every mass shooting for years now. Rinse and repeat.
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