Yay, GUNS!

[Raider5678]

 

13 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

You are missing one component, the idea that enough moderate politicians exist is contrary to reality. The special interest groups own the politicians quite literally. All or at least most of the special interest groups support each other almost fanatically. There are so few unowned politicians I'm not sure who isn't if any at all. The conservatives know this idea of guns, god, and capitalism is what keeps the masses inline.  The god lobby supports the gun lobby and the capitalist lobby and so on. I can figure it out. Otherwise good people who would have destroyed any liberal who does these things supports the conservatives absolutely. A great many people actually think that Obama was the devil incarnate and that Trump is the "messiah" well almost anyway. I have actually heard them say we need someone like Trump to whip the country in line. seriously scary considering that was what they said about You know who (rule 34) I don't pretend to understand it but I will not pretend to like it. 

I just googled rule 34, and clicked the website for rule 34. I'm not sure it means what you think it does....

 

Then we need more moderate politicians. Government transparency is something I think would help.

 

Anyways, I plan to run for office as a State Representative when I turn 21, a State Senator when I turn 25,  for U.S. House of Representative when I turn 30, and for a U.S Senator when I turn 35. Ultimately, during that time I am going to be trying constantly to foster a direct relationship with the population as I run, and I'll be running as an independent. 

So if moderate politicians are rare as of now, I plan to try and force a change over three decades. 

 

Either way, do you think this would help bypass the gun lobby? Or do you believe we have to actually take control, change, or destroy the gun lobby instead?

Edited February 19, 2018 by Raider5678

[koti]

25 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Alright.

I'll just go to my nearest state representative office and learn the proceedings to getting elected. Then I'll challenge the gun lobby.

Kidding. Not that simple. However, I may have an idea of how we can change how people see gun control without gaining control of the gun lobby.

Before I state it, however, we should all remember we're among friends(for the most part). Ten Oz, Zapatos, John, Dimreeper, String, Moon, Ranger, iNow, and Koti. Each of us has been on this forum for quite some time, and for the most part, managed to get along. We should try to get this to continue.

Anyways, back to my idea.

 

So, the main power of the gun lobby(in my opinion) lies in their ability to act as a lens.

A piece of legislation shows up saying it plans to add universal criminal background checks on AR-15s, and the gun lobby then tells all its followers they are restricting AR-15s from law abiding citizens. The followers of the Gun Lobby never get a chance to actually read the legislation, because often that stuff is long and boring(again, my opinion.) In this way, the gun lobby has acted as a lens for its followers, twisting the legislation before they can see it.

Looking at Donald Trump, I can see how successful his use of Social Media is(relative. He's an idiot, but people read what he says directly without it being a lens). 

Those in support of reasonable gun control, the politicians, should start making short youtube videos about their legislation. Assure law abiding citizens they'll be able to keep their guns. Assure them they aren't being taken away. Explain the sections of the bill, tell them why you're doing it, and that for most people it won't change. However, it'll keep guns out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them. 

I'm willing to say most people are actually moderates. There are loud areas of far right and far left, but most people are moderate with gun control. They just want Universal background checks and mental fitness checks, and most would agree.

By using videos instead of legislation and speeches, a good portion of the gun lobby will watch the videos themselves, and it'll be much harder to twist what you're actually saying. I know for a fact many people would watch videos of people making speeches about stuff they hated, just to hate on those people. Use that to your advantage. It's much harder to hate on a video when halfway through it you realize you actually agree with them.

This is NOT my solution to how I think we should use gun control, this is my solution to how we should fight the gun lobby(something I'm against.).

Does this seem reasonable to you guys?

I feel like today, politicians are failing to get their message to people. Instead, their message goes to the press, and the press then changes their message to either look better or look worse, who then feeds it to either the left, or the right. We have to find a way around that. And as much as I hate to say it, Trump showed me a clever loophole.

 

We can't break the rock.

We can't become the rock.

We can't change the rock.

But we can just walk around it.

 

United States - 10.1

Canada - 10.2

Germany - 10.3

Iceland - 10.4

Norway- 10.9

Slovak Republic- 10.9

Sweden- 11.1

Denmark- 11.3

New Zealand- 11.9

Czech Republic- 12.7

Austria- 13.8

Poland- 13.8

France- 14.6

Finland- 16.5

Belgium- 18.4

Japan- 19.4

Hungary- 21.0

South Korea- 24.7

 

The number next to the country is the number of suicides per 100,000 residents.

The countries with higher suicide rates then the United States all have varying gun control, from less than 1/5 of the number of guns to more.(again, per 100,000 residents.)

The suicide rate and the suicide attempt rate, do not seem to correlate with guns. However, the suicide success rate, when using a gun, correlates with the gun.

Now perhaps I'm missing something, but these numbers don't seem to correlate with the study? Or did I misinterpret the study?

 

 

Such video campaigns ment to target a large and contumacious audience would be extremely costly and difficult. Imagine trying to get millions of hits on youtube from stuborn people who don’t give a damn about what you’re trying to convey to them.

3 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

 

I just googled rule 34, and clicked the website for rule 34. I'm not sure it means what you think it does....

LoL.

[Moontanman]

Just now, Raider5678 said:

 

I just googled rule 34, and clicked the website for rule 34. I'm not sure it means what you think it does....

You are probably right, Hitler was the missing word. 

Just now, Raider5678 said:

 

Then we need more moderate politicians. Government transparency is something I think would help.

No doubt, we need to fight for that.

Just now, Raider5678 said:

 

Anyways, I plan to run for office as a State Representative when I turn 21, a State Senator when I turn 25,  for U.S. House of Representative when I turn 30, and for a U.S Senator when I turn 35. Ultimately, during that time I am going to be trying constantly to foster a direct relationship with the population as I run, and I'll be running as an independent. 

I look forward to you getting elected but some would say unless you are rich you can't get elected without the support of the elite who own the gov...  

Just now, Raider5678 said:

So if moderate politicians are rare as of now, I plan to try and force a change over three decades. 

You have my support.

Just now, Raider5678 said:

 

However, as of now, certainly, there is some politician who is moderate, who we could convince to do something like this?

Bernie Sanders? 

Just now, Raider5678 said:

 

Either way, do you think this would help bypass the gun lobby? Or do you believe we have to actually take control, change, or destroy the gun lobby instead?

We have to destroy their ability to bribe government officials... 

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Ten oz has posted numbers such as 52 million people who own guns in the US, and net sales of the gun and ammo industries of over 50 billion dollars.
That makes an average expenditure of approx. $1000 per person, per year on guns and ammo purchases.

The link I provided outline where the money come from. When you considered certain individual guns and gun safes can easily cost over $1,000 (an AR-15 runs around $1,200 on average) or that many people have memberships at ranges that cost over $1,000 a year it isn't hard to imagine an average of $1,000 per person per year. A lot of people re-case there own brass because of how expensive ammunition is. A box of AR-15 rounds is over a hundred dollars. 

[Raider5678]

Just now, koti said:

Such video campaigns ment to target a large and contumacious audience would be extremely costly and difficult. Imagine trying to get millions of hits on youtube from stuborn people who don’t give a damn about what you’re trying to convey to them.

I'm optimistic. Video campaigns don't need to be expensive. Some recording equipment, sound equipment, and a little planning and you'll be able to make a speech, to a video, to an audience. Most people don't give a damn what Trump is trying to convey, yet he still get's millions of hits on twitter.

 

[Moontanman]

1 minute ago, Raider5678 said:

I'm optimistic. Video campaigns don't need to be expensive. Some recording equipment, sound equipment, and a little planning and you'll be able to make a speech, to a video, to an audience. Most people don't give a damn what Trump is trying to convey, yet he still get's millions of hits on twitter.

 

I disagree, Trump was elected and he has the support of the people who have real influence... 

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

This is yet another flaw, I cannot get behind restricting hunting, I would be lying if I said I could. I may not hunt but keeping others from doing so is simply not the way the US has ever worked. Assault weapons are not part of the hunting culture and neither are hand guns...  

Find a post where I said a law should be passed to restrict hunting. 

[Raider5678]

1 minute ago, Moontanman said:

No doubt, we need to fight for that.

I look forward to you getting elected but some would say unless you are rich you can't get elected without the support of the elite who own the gov...  

You have my support.

Bernie Sanders? 

We have to destroy their ability to bribe government officials... 

 

We do.

If I get elected I'll keep you in the loop. I'm not insanely rich, however, neither is the district I'd be trying to get elected into. I could easily launch a campaign with less than $2,000. Which shouldn't be hard for me to raise as I have already convinced numerous people(admittedly, with sizable wallets) to support me when I get to the age to run.

 

Bernie Sanders would be hard to convince to do a youtube talk. He does do radio though. Additionally, he's already known and he's already been associated with the Democratic party.

 

How?

 

 

Also, this is getting slightly off topic, so we should probably refocus on how we can overcome the gun lobby.

5 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

I disagree, Trump was elected and he has the support of the people who have real influence... 

To be fair, he didn't win the majority vote.

However, I do see what you're saying. 

12 minutes ago, koti said:

LoL.

Erasing search history.

[Moontanman]

2 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

We do.

If I get elected I'll keep you in the loop. I'm not insanely rich, however, neither is the district I'd be trying to get elected into. I could easily launch a campaign with less than $2,000. Which shouldn't be hard for me to raise as I have already convinced numerous people(admittedly, with sizable wallets) to support me when I get to the age to run.

 

Bernie Sanders would be hard to convince to do a youtube talk. He does do radio though. Additionally, he's already known and he's already been associated with the Democratic party.

 

How?

Citizens united has to be repealed, this idea of unchained capitalism has to be stopped, the idea that only one type of gov can work when even our country is a combination of capitalist and socialist..   

2 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

 

 

Also, this is getting slightly off topic, so we should probably refocus on how we can overcome the gun lobby.

To be fair, he didn't win the majority vote.

However, I do see what you're saying. 

 

7 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Find a post where I said a law should be passed to restrict hunting. 

 You are correct I misread this post: 

Quote

The 51.3 billion dollar number I have been using comes from a report (linked above) that specifically looks at sport shooting, hunting, and other civilian revenue sources and not federal contracts. 

 

[Raider5678]

4 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Citizens united has to be repealed, this idea of unchained capitalism has to be stopped, the idea that only one type of gov can work when even our country is a combination of capitalist and socialist..   

Okay. So now we're getting somewhere on the topic of gun control, which is what I like to see.

So, currently here are the steps:

1. Get rid of Citizens United so that

2. We can stop so much government bribery so that

3. We can get more moderate politicians so that

4. We can get more of them to go against the gun lobby so that 

5. We can get more support for already highly supported gun control measures so that

6. We can decrease gun violence due to lack of universal background checks and mental fitness checks.

 

We're now getting somewhere instead of just arguing back and forth.

 

 

[Moontanman]

1 minute ago, Raider5678 said:

Okay. So now we're getting somewhere on the topic of gun control, which is what I like to see.

So, currently here are the steps:

1. Get rid of Citizens United so that

2. We can stop so much government bribery so that

3. We can get more moderate politicians so that

4. We can get more of them to go against the gun lobby so that 

5. We can get more support for already highly supported gun control measures so that

6. We can decrease gun violence due to lack of universal background checks and mental fitness checks.

 

We're now getting somewhere instead of just arguing back and forth.

 

 

Exactly! 

[koti]

13 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Okay. So now we're getting somewhere on the topic of gun control, which is what I like to see.

So, currently here are the steps:

1. Get rid of Citizens United so that

2. We can stop so much government bribery so that

3. We can get more moderate politicians so that

4. We can get more of them to go against the gun lobby so that 

5. We can get more support for already highly supported gun control measures so that

6. We can decrease gun violence due to lack of universal background checks and mental fitness checks.

 

We're now getting somewhere instead of just arguing back and forth.

 

 

Looks like you found what you wan to be doing for the next 50 years Raider. +1.

[Raider5678]

8 minutes ago, koti said:

Looks like you found what you wan to be doing for the next 50 years Raider. +1.

Preferably 20. Either way, the easiest part is knowing how to do it. The hard part is actually doing it.

[zapatos]

I'm encouraged! 

[rangerx]

8 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

background checks and mental fitness checks

Of course, but mental health may go untreated for the sake of guns. Sadly that would contribute to issue of unlawful gun usage and further burden healthcare, not take away from it. Mental illness doesn't always mean dangerous with guns either and I'm sure civil rights leaders and medical professional would agree (in many cases). A lot of so-called gun nuts are just that, nuts, but not dangerous or a threat. Probably just the opposite. Peaceful and protective. Clinical mental health on the other hand needs strict oversight, though.

The problem being, the person was indoctrinated to that in the first place, is where the issue lies, IMHO.

What does that say about a society that instills those rights ahead of the rights of the patient themselves? Patient health must always be utmost, not the other way around.

Like Canada and many other countries, we're taught guns are a privilege, not a right... even though it is. It removes most the arrogance and selfishness from the equation and statistically, we're safer and better for it. It's not political, or at least very rarely. Both of sides of the political spectrum up here are on the same page, for the most part.

I just think it's bizarre that America lives in fear of the things they revere the most. Yay, GUNS!

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

Citizens united has to be repealed, this idea of unchained capitalism has to be stopped.

There's a good start. It would probably help a lot of other issues too. Not just guns.

[CharonY]

2 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

Suicide rates are not really related to guns.

But gun-related death rates are important as others have pointed out. Either way it is part of the general public health issue and research is needed to guide what needs to be done. Even if measures have high support, it does not mean that they are effective. Ideally, one needs to have access to fine-grained data, similar to other epidemiological studies to establish risk factors. I am not sure, for example what needs to be in a background check to minimize gun-related deaths. While one could certainly argue that any restriction is beneficial to a certain degree, there are likely to be more or less effective measures. 

But again, data is scarce on that. Overall, there seems to be a general difference in attitude with different threshold at which it is deemed acceptable to use them (outside of suicide) even among countries in which guns are prevalent. 

[iNow]

In this most recent Florida massacre, the guy WAS expelled. He WAS noticed to be acting erratically. He WAS reported to the FBI. He WAS posting crazy shit to FB. He WAS explicitly stating that he planned to shoot up a school. 

Yeah, sure. The FBI dropped the ball, but assume for a moment they didn’t. Assume for a mement they properly followed up on this lead. Assume for a moment some field agents went and knocked on this kids door and began asking questions. Assume for a moment they agreed he was a valid threat  

Under current law, there was still nothing they could’ve done.

They couldn’t have arrested him. They couldn’t have sent him to counseling. They couldn’t have removed his guns. 

Even when handled perfectly, there was NOTHING available to them to legally prevent this. 

That’s how bad our culture has become in the issue of guns. We still have a very long way to go. 

[Raider5678]

9 minutes ago, rangerx said:

1. Of course, but mental health may go untreated for the sake of guns. Sadly that would contribute to issue of unlawful gun usage and further burden healthcare, not take away from it. Mental illness doesn't always mean dangerous with guns either and I'm sure civil rights leaders and medical professional would agree (in many cases). A lot of so-called gun nuts are just that, nuts, but not dangerous or a threat. Probably just the opposite. Peaceful and protective. Clinical mental health on the other hand needs strict oversight, though.

2. The problem being, the person was indoctrinated to that in the first place, is where the issue lies, IMHO.

3. What does that say about a society that instills those rights ahead of the rights of the patient themselves? Patient health must always be utmost, not the other way around.

4. Like Canada and many other countries, we're taught guns are a privilege, not a right... even though it is. It removes most the arrogance and selfishness from the equation and statistically, we're safer and better for it. It's not political, or at least very rarely. Both of sides of the political spectrum up here are on the same page, for the most part.

5. I just think it's bizarre that America lives in fear of the things they revere the most. Yay, GUNS!

 

1. I'm not sure I follow. How does restricting those with mental health problems from having guns mean they won't be able to get treatment? Also, obviously I'm not going to stop someone who has ADHD from getting a gun, or dyslexia. I'm talking people who can't be cleared by a psychologist as safe to have a gun.

2. So you disagree with the current steps because it's about indoctrination? 

3. So the right to restrict dangerous people from having guns, means they're instilling the right to own guns before the rights of the patients themselves? Again. Not sure I follow.

4. Good for you. 

5. This isn't a rant against America, which yes I know you're very Anti-American, but you don't need to drag it into every discussion. 

 

Since you don't agree with the steps, and feel they won't succeed, what is your solution then?

Just now, iNow said:

In this most recent Florida massacre, the guy WAS expelled. He WAS noticed to be acting erratically. He WAS reported to the FBI. He WAS posting crazy shit to FB. He WAS explicitly stating that he planned to shoot up a school. 

Yeah, sure. The FBI dropped the ball, but assume for a moment they didn’t. Assume for a mement they properly followed up on this lead. Assume for a moment some field agents went and knocked on this kids door and began asking questions. Assume for a moment they agreed he was a valid threat  

Under current law, there was still nothing they could’ve done.

They couldn’t have arrested him. They couldn’t have sent him to counseling. They couldn’t have removed his guns. 

Even when handled perfectly, there was NOTHING available to them to legally prevent this. 

That’s how bad our culture has become in the issue of guns. We still have a very long way to go. 

Agreed.

Looking at the current solution we're working on though, do you think it would help prevent an event like this from happening again?

[iNow]

3 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Looking at the current solution we're working on though, do you think it would help prevent an event like this from happening again?

Every journey begins with a single step. Even the largest of buckets will eventually overflow with enough individual drops. I support what you’re discussing, but so much more is needed. 

[Raider5678]

8 minutes ago, iNow said:

Every journey begins with a single step. Even the largest of buckets will eventually overflow with enough individual drops. I support what you’re discussing, but so much more is needed. 

Alright.

We can have multiple positions we're advancing at once.

What else do you propose? 

You have to note, the gun control I'd be advocating for is much less then perhaps you and John would like. However, if we're able to achieve what I'm aiming for, it'll be easier to achieve what you're aiming for.

[Moontanman]

28 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Alright.

We can have multiple positions we're advancing at once.

What else do you propose? 

You have to note, the gun control I'd be advocating for is much less then perhaps you and John would like. However, if we're able to achieve what I'm aiming for, it'll be easier to achieve what you're aiming for.

And therein lies the rub, most people who oppose gun control think that once they give in gun control with increase until no one can have guns. Even a hint of this will alienate many people...  

[iNow]

All owners licensed. Renewals every 2 years. 

Licensing requires passing of tests and agreements to follow laws and immediately report stolen weapons.

Tests will involve shooting competence, storage safety, and also will have written component to confirm awareness of annual gun death numbers and costs.

Along with a license, ownership requires insurance, payments go to those affected by gun violence. 

Any individual cannot own more than three total weapons. No weapon can carry more than six bullets. A shotgun, a rifle, perhaps a handgun. That’s it.

If more weapons than three are owned, they must be stored securely at a gun range (not in the home) and each time they get checked out it will result in an entry to a federal database.

That database will use AI to run an immediate scan against social media activity. Any risks indentified will result in a visit from a field agent. Weapons must be checked back in and total time out of locker recorded.

Any household with children requires all guns to be placed in a safe and/or be trigger locked. 

Purchase of rapid fire guns requires a good reason and that reason must be annually approved by a panel of three judges. Reason must be better than “they’re cool and I like to show off.” Rentals of rapid fire weapons at gun ranges allowed under licensure.

All weapons must imprint a unique stamp on the ammunition fired so it can be easily tied back to the owner. 

Ammunition must have a luxury tax, like cigarettes and booze. Creation of your own ammo requires license and tracking. 

No sales at gun shows or online. Passing down through family requires mayor to approve. There has to be a paper trail... a 3rd party who becomes responsible for safe transfer.

Like driving, must have adult present to shoot until 18 years old. Cannot own your own until 21, unless part of the military. 

Any expulsion from school results in mandatory counseling. Any domestic abuse involving police results in immediate suspension of gun privileges for 6 months. Any violent act suspends gun privileges for 12 months. Any breaking of any these rules above suspends gun privileges for 3 years minimum... permanently in extreme cases.

Any official found helping to break these rules gets immediately stripped of office, fined, and potentially jailed. 

There are countless other ideas. These are just a few I could easily remember after a long tiring day of cutting down brush and dead trees with a handsaw. 

Edited February 19, 2018 by iNow

[Moontanman]

2 minutes ago, iNow said:

All owners licensed. Renewals every 2 years. 

Licensing requires passing of tests and agreements to follow laws and immediately report stolen weapons. Tests will involve competence, but also written and will confirm awareness of annual gun deaths amd costs  

Along with a license, ownership requires insurance, payments go to those affected by gun violence. 

Any individual cannot own more than three total weapons. No weapon can carry more than six bullets. A shotgun, a rifle, perhaps a handgun. That’s it.

If more weapons than three are owned, they must be stored securely at a gun range (not in the home) and each time they get checked out it will result in an entry to a federal database. That database will use AI to run an immediate scan against social media activity. They must be checked back in and time out of locker recorded.

Any household with children require all guns to be placed in a safe and/or be trigger locked. 

Purchase of rapid fire guns requires a good reason and that reason must be annually approved by a panel of three judges. Reason must be better than “they’re cool and I like to show off.” Rentals of rapid fire weapons at gun ranges allowed under licensure.

All weapons must imprint a unique stamp on the ammunition fired so it can be easily tied back to the owner. 

Ammunition must have a luxury tax, like cigarettes and booze. Creation of your own ammo requires license and tracking. 

No sales at gun shows or online. Passing down through family requires mayor to approve. There has to be a paper trail.

Like driving, must have adult present to shoot until 18 years old. Cannot own your own until 21, unless part of the military. 

Any expulsion from school results in mandatory counseling. Any domestic abuse involving police results in immediate suspension of gun privileges for 6 months. Any violent act suspends gun privileges for 12 months. Any breaking of any these rules above suspends gun privileges for 3 years minimum.

Any official found helping to break these rules gets immediately stripped of office, fined, and potentially jailed. 

There are countless other ideas. These are just a few I could easily remember after a long tiring day of cutting down brush and dead trees with a handsaw. 

 Sounds like a good start! (hand saw? what are you Paul Bunyan?, I used an electric chain saw, I'm a wus evidently) 

[iNow]

2 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

(hand saw? what are you Paul Bunyan?, I used an electric chain saw, I'm a wus evidently) 

Clears my head and needed the exercise. First warm day in weeks. Needed the fresh air as the snow melted. 

[Moontanman]

Just now, iNow said:

Clears my head and needed the exercise. First warm day in weeks. Needed the fresh air as the snow melted. 

I do know what you mean, splitting wood is my go to relaxation...