rangerx Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 2 hours ago, Raider5678 said: I'm not sure of the necessity for rifles, shotguns, etc. I never said anything of the sort. Did you miss the part where I said rifles and shotguns were not restricted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 5 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Humility doesn't appear to be a strength in America which may explain why so many want guns. Don't get me wrong, the English are just as deluded but we just cling to the NHS instead... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangerx Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 7 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Humility doesn't appear to be a strength in America which may explain why so many want guns. Precisely. Likewise, a overwhelming propensity to label anyone critical of the states on any issue as anti-American. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 5 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Don't get me wrong, the English are just as deluded but we just cling to the NHS instead... At least that's worth going down for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 4 minutes ago, StringJunky said: At least that's worth going down for. Well, maybe but let's not forget "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 48 minutes ago, rangerx said: Creating the narrative I'm anti-American is false. I already told you I'm willing to take you at your word. I cannot help it if I feel the words you use (see below) strike me as off topic and/or angry commentary about the United States. Quote America loves to bash other countries, especially in the way you threatened to bash mine, but your country doesn't take it very well Far be it America would follow another country's lead on fixing problems, lest they appear weak. Oh so your country knows better on every score? Your country doesn't ban immigrants? America also needs to get over itself... Your country bans immigrants even though most don't terrorize. What is it about Americans being freaked out about things that affect them the least, yet silent on things that affect them the most? Bad education, hyper-partisan politics and fucked up priorities, is what. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 5 minutes ago, zapatos said: I already told you I'm willing to take you at your word. I cannot help it if I feel the words you use (see below) strike me as off topic and/or angry commentary about the United States. 1 Guess who's coming to dinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Snatch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangerx Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 2 minutes ago, zapatos said: I already told you I'm willing to take you at your word. I cannot help it if I feel the words you use (see below) strike me as off topic and/or angry commentary about the United States. Your problem, not mine. America elected Trump because they got all pissy about political correctness, largely in part because "he speaks his mind" or "tells it like he see's it" and defend it adamantly. Then someone critical comes along and speaks in the same terms, they get all pissy for not being politically correct enough. Thanks for stipulating to my point about double standards, especially when it comes to dealing with serious issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 When we debate other political issues there is almost always a legislative side and a personal accountability side. Among those of us that believe in Climate Change there is agreement that the Govt should act but that individuals need to change their behavior too by buying more fuel & energy efficient products. Likewise if we are talking about pollution we all understand that the Govt needs smart legislation but individuals need to do the the right things too like recycle and using products that compost. Everyone knows a good education starts at home and without that in place any Govt education program will struggle. Yet when we discuss guns the personal accountability angle offends those who otherwise agree something needs to be done. I think those in this discussion should honestly ask themselves if their position of guns is in line with their position on other issues. If you accept that as energy consumers we all bare some responsibility to fixing Climate Change with our actions yet are a gun owner and do not accept the same responsibility for Gun Control what is the difference? If one is asking the Govt to act while being individually unwilling to then it really shouldn't come as a surprise when the Govt fails to act. I can complain the Govt should pass a law requiring auto companies to build more cars that get 35mpg but it is counterproductive if I choose to buy a giant truck that only gets 12mpg . The auto industry is going to fight to build what sells. We all know the gun lobby is very powerful. We all know the gun lobby owns many politicians. We all know the gun lobby is a major road block to any legislation being passed. We all also know the Gun Lobby gets is influence/money from customers of the Gun Industry. People who hunt, sport shoot, and etc feed the Gun Lobby. This isn't rocket science. Before any legislation can be passed the Gun Lobby's influence must be reduced. So one way to weaken them is for consumers to stop coughing up their cash. Another is after every accidental shooting, mass shooting, suicide, and etc families need to launch lawsuits so the industry bleeds money in court in addition to suffering losses on the retail side. It would soften their influence (money) and then our Govt representatives can enter negotiations that lead to something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 1 minute ago, rangerx said: Your problem, not mine. America elected Trump because they got all pissy about political correctness, largely in part because "he speaks his mind" or "tells it like he see's it" and defend it adamantly. Then someone critical comes along and speaks in the same terms, they get all pissy for not being politically correct enough. Thanks for stipulating to my point about double standards, especially when it comes to dealing with serious issues. Yeah, you don't sound angry at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, zapatos said: Snatch LOL guess who snatched a reply... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, swansont said: "freely available" has a fairly nebulous definition here. If it's really expensive, then it's not all that available unless you have the money. And if access to the desired type of gun is restricted, it becomes even less available. They will not be freely available. By black market I am talking about the sales from one private citizen to another, even if the gun can be traced back to its original owner all they have to say is that it was stolen and they are out of danger to prosecute. Also there is a huge number of unregistered guns as well that are traded back and forth for both money goods and services. Also there is an active trade in guns from black market dealers who traffic guns and who buy guns from people who need the money and then resales them with no check except cash. Quote How do the guns get to the black market, anyway? We're talking about guns that are legally manufactured and sold at some point. Beside the really huge numbers of guns not registered the number of guns passing through the economy is large, large enough that costs are still depressed on most guns. Things like assault rifles go up drastically but regular guns not so much. The market is glutted with them... Edited February 19, 2018 by Moontanman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangerx Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 1 minute ago, zapatos said: Yeah, you don't sound angry at all. You are right. I'm not angry. I'm aghast. And then resorted to sarcasm to paint another false narrative about my state of mind. Thanks again for making my case for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 2 minutes ago, rangerx said: America elected Trump because they got all pissy about political correctness, largely in part because "he speaks his mind" or "tells it like he see's it" and defend it adamantly. Then someone critical comes along and speaks in the same terms, they get all pissy for not being politically correct enough. Russian interference, voter suppression, billions in free media to Trump, people believing Clinton was inevitable, FBI last minute announcement, and etc all played roles which are very hard to calculate. Attempting to state the Trump one for any one specific reason is nearly impossible. The reason you listed isn't even a top 5 reason in my opinion. Being it back to Guns the NRA supported Trump to defeat Clinton to the tune of 30 million in 2016. So we can add Guns to the list pf factors at play in the 2016 election. "Perhaps Trump doesn't want to risk disturbing the NRA, which spent more than $30 million in 2016 to support him and defeat his opponent, Hillary Clinton." http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-nra-politicians-20180215-story.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangerx Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, Ten oz said: The reason you listed isn't even a top 5 reason in my opinion. Agreed, but it undoubtedly was an underlying issue, especially in light of the degree they defend Trump for his complete disregard for PC, to this very day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 23 minutes ago, Moontanman said: By black market I am talking about the sales from one private citizen to another, even if the gun can be traced back to its original owner all they have to say is that it was stolen and they are out of danger to prosecute. Also there is a huge number of unregistered guns as well that are traded back and forth for both money goods and services. Also there is an active trade in guns from black market dealers who traffic guns and who buy guns from people who need the money and then resales them with no check except cash. A black market exists for basically everything yet we still have laws. I never understand why people feel that when it comes to guns the existence of a black market stands as some type of major obstacle to moving forward. There is a huge black market for opiates yet that doesn't cause people to sit around and lament that opiates may as well just be legal. We can discuss the way various bits of legislation would impact prices on the black market or would provide officials more latitude to police the black market but conclusion of those conversations should not be a prerequisite to moving for with gun control legislation. Rather they are caveats to be considered for further follow up legislation. That is the normal process. 30 minutes ago, rangerx said: Agreed, but it undoubtedly was an underlying issue, especially in light of the degree they defend Trump for his complete disregard for PC, to this very day. I actually do not think it was. However it is totally off topic so I will leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raider5678 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 8 minutes ago, Ten oz said: There is a huge black market for opiates yet that doesn't cause people to sit around and lament that opiates may as well just be legal. I'd seriously disagree. I know MANY people, personally, who are pushing to legalize drugs because that way we can at least monitor them due to the black market completely undercutting the law. The war on drugs is deemed as a massive failure by them(actually, by me as well. I just disagree on legalizing drugs) and they think we have to take a whole new approach. As a side note, those same people also feel pretty much the same thing would happen if we tried to make guns illegal.(Notice I said illegal, not restricted.) But this isn't germane. Just felt like going on a little side note to point out that's not exactly true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 11 minutes ago, Ten oz said: A black market exists for basically everything yet we still have laws. I never understand why people feel that when it comes to guns the existence of a black market stands as some type of major obstacle to moving forward. There is a huge black market for opiates yet that doesn't cause people to sit around and lament that opiates may as well just be legal. We can discuss the way various bits of legislation would impact prices on the black market or would provide officials more latitude to police the black market but conclusion of those conversations should not be a prerequisite to moving for with gun control legislation. Rather they are caveats to be considered for further follow up legislation. That is the normal process. I never said we shouldn't do anything, I am just stating the obstacles that have to be overcome. And BTW I do think opiates should be legal, the war on drugs has cost us more lives than the drugs themselves ever did.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raider5678 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Moontanman said: By black market I am talking about the sales from one private citizen to another, even if the gun can be traced back to its original owner all they have to say is that it was stolen and they are out of danger to prosecute. Also there is a huge number of unregistered guns as well that are traded back and forth for both money goods and services. Also there is an active trade in guns from black market dealers who traffic guns and who buy guns from people who need the money and then resales them with no check except cash. 3 Not to mention, I live in an area where at least three people I know of, could build a gun from pretty well scratch as long as they get their hands on the raw materials(mostly metal.) and have a pretty good idea of what they're making. I know one guy who actually makes them for a living as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 1 minute ago, Raider5678 said: Not to mention, I live in an area where at least three people I know of, could build a gun from pretty well scratch as long as they get their hands on the raw materials(mostly metal.) and have a pretty good idea of what they're making. I know one guy who actually makes them for a living as well. I know what you mean, I would bet that within a mile radius of me right now there is enough guns to load a semi... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 4 hours ago, zapatos said: I didn't find "Far be it America would follow another country's lead on fixing problems, lest they appear weak" to be either objectively true or on topic. If only the US didn't have a history of similar knee-jerk responses, such as not doing something the Europe does because it's socialist... 2 hours ago, Moontanman said: By black market I am talking about the sales from one private citizen to another, even if the gun can be traced back to its original owner all they have to say is that it was stolen and they are out of danger to prosecute. Also there is a huge number of unregistered guns as well that are traded back and forth for both money goods and services. Also there is an active trade in guns from black market dealers who traffic guns and who buy guns from people who need the money and then resales them with no check except cash. Beside the really huge numbers of guns not registered the number of guns passing through the economy is large, large enough that costs are still depressed on most guns. Things like assault rifles go up drastically but regular guns not so much. The market is glutted with them... If those guns have no avenue into the public in the first place, then the black market dries up. There's not much focus on "regular" guns, so that's moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raider5678 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, swansont said: If only the US didn't have a history of similar knee-jerk responses, such as not doing something the Europe does because it's socialist... 1 The US and Europe are two different countries. Just because we don't do something that is done in Europe doesn't mean we don't do it because we see it as socialist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 6 minutes ago, Raider5678 said: The US and Europe are two different countries. Just because we don't do something that is done in Europe doesn't mean we don't do it because we see it as socialist. Europe isn't a country, and when people say they don't want to copy Europe because the policies are socialist, then I take them at their word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 14 minutes ago, swansont said: If only the US didn't have a history of similar knee-jerk responses, such as not doing something the Europe does because it's socialist... Since you want to explore this further, can you give some examples of America not following another country's lead, lest they appear weak? Do you think there were any times that America did follow another country's lead on fixing problems, and didn't worry whether or not that made them look weak? If America sometimes has knee-jerk reactions, and sometimes follows the lead of others, do you think it is objectively true to say that American does not follow another country's lead because it fears looking weak? And just generally on the other part of my response to rangerx, do you think discussing whether or not America's failure to follow another country's lead on fixing problems lest they appear weak, is on topic wrt the OP? 7 minutes ago, swansont said: Europe isn't a country... I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that Raider already knew that and simply misspoke, but it's good we got it straightened out anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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