dapifo Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) Is it really sure that the total amount of matter+energy is constant in the Universe? What happen with antimatter and dark matter & energy?... and with neutrinos? Edited July 25, 2012 by dapifo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mynameson Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Well when the universe was created it had both kind of forces gravitational and another force that pushes matter apart from each other they still exist but the universe is so vast we can not see them but its very clumsy indeed.And Dark Matter is still here never dissapeared. But matter is transformed in energy so there are no loss its all stored in a diff form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnStu Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Remember, everything about antimatter and darkmatter is hypothesis. -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dapifo Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 Remember, everything about antimatter and darkmatter is hypothesis. So..that matter+energy of Universe is constant...is also an hypothesis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnStu Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 So..that matter+energy of Universe is constant...is also an hypothesis? Nope, that is not hypothesis. But antimatter and dark matter have not been solidly confirmed. For me, total matter + energy of the Universe is constant, with the definition of energy being everything except matter. -2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACG52 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Nope, that is not hypothesis. But antimatter and dark matter have not been solidly confirmed. Actually antimatter has been produced and captured for as long as 16 minutes. It is quite solidly confirmed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanrga Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 (edited) Remember, everything about antimatter and darkmatter is hypothesis. Darkmatter is, but antimatter has been generated and detected at labs many many years ago. Is it really sure that the total amount of matter+energy is constant in the Universe? Do you mean matter+radiation? Who said you that was "sure"? According to standard cosmological model, energy is not conserved in the Universe. What happen with antimatter and dark matter & energy?... and with neutrinos? What do you believe that happened? Edited July 26, 2012 by juanrga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dapifo Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 (edited) Do you mean matter+radiation? Who said you that was "sure"? According to standard cosmological model, energy is not conserved in the Universe. radiation = energy?...or energy = matter+radiation?..... energy=radiation+dark energy?....what do you mean? Total Energy+matter = Matter - Antimatter + Energy (Radiation+neutrinos+...) + Dark Matter + Dark Energy ? It is very important your assertion that "According to standard cosmological model, energy is not conserved in the Universe" ...so do you mean that energy could change in the Universe during the time?...And Total Energy+matter is constant? What do you believe that happened? I reffer to that : - Antimatter is considered like negative matter ?...Then Total matter = mattter - antimatter - Neutrinos are considered as energy? - Dark matter& energy...are considered whithin the Total amount of energy+matter? Does the Antienergy exist?...or not? Edited July 26, 2012 by dapifo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severian Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Darkmatter is, but antimatter has been generated and detected at labs many many years ago. I would say that Dark Matter has been pretty solidly confirmed too. We just don't know what it is, but it is definitely there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.C.MacSwell Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 I would say that Dark Matter has been pretty solidly confirmed too. We just don't know what it is, but it is definitely there. I don't believe Dark Matter has been confirmed. It's conjectured as a hypothetical cause of a perceived effect. How is it definitely there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severian Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 There is tons of evidence for dark matter, from gravitational lensing, to WMAP, to galaxy rotation curves, to velocity dispersions, to supernova distances. I think the gravitational lensing and the relic density from WMAP would be enough evidence for me, never mind all the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 There is tons of evidence for dark matter, from gravitational lensing, to WMAP, to galaxy rotation curves, to velocity dispersions, to supernova distances. I think the gravitational lensing and the relic density from WMAP would be enough evidence for me, never mind all the rest. http://wordlesstech.com/2012/07/11/evidence-of-dark-matter-confirmed/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanrga Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) radiation = energy?...or energy = matter+radiation?..... energy=radiation+dark energy?....what do you mean? Physical systems in our universe are either matter or radiation. Matter and radiation have properties such as energy, but are not equal to energy. Total Energy+matter = Matter - Antimatter + Energy (Radiation+neutrinos+...) + Dark Matter + Dark Energy ? This makes no sense by that said above and by other reasons (e.g., neutrinos are matter). It is very important your assertion that "According to standard cosmological model, energy is not conserved in the Universe" ...so do you mean that energy could change in the Universe during the time?...And Total Energy+matter is constant? According to the standard cosmological model the energy in the universe is not conserved during space expansion: i.e., energy varies with time. - Antimatter is considered like negative matter ?...Then Total matter = mattter - antimatter - Neutrinos are considered as energy? - Dark matter& energy...are considered whithin the Total amount of energy+matter? Does the Antienergy exist?...or not? Antimatter is not negative matter. In fact "negative matter" is a meaningless term. Dark matter is added to matter and dark energy is to energy. "Antienergy" is another meaningless term. I would say that Dark Matter has been pretty solidly confirmed too. We just don't know what it is, but it is definitely there. Any direct search of dark matter has failed. Xenon100 has just reported another null result: http://blogs.discove...r-still-hiding/ As I wrote in the above blog, we know that dark matter is a fictitious distribution of mass. You can use this fictitious distribution of mass to 'explain' [*] anomalous lensing, galactic dynamics... but it is not any real distribution of mass and, as a consequence, any direct search will return a null result. In fact the Xenon100 null result was predicted time ago. [*] Dark matter models only can explain (a posteriori) some phenomena and they fail often. Edited July 27, 2012 by juanrga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 ! Moderator Note OK this isn't the place for a Dark Matter argument. Feel free to open a new thread to discuss the lack of little flashes as xenon atoms get bumped by dark matter particles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dapifo Posted July 27, 2012 Author Share Posted July 27, 2012 Physical systems in our universe are either matter or radiation. Matter and radiation have properties such as energy, but are not equal to energy. So, please could you giveme a formula to understand?... Energy=matter (proton, neutron, neutrinos (?), Higgs, gravitrón,...) + radiation (EM waves, photon, electron,...) ? I understud by matter any thing that has gravity field (??)....Gravitrons (?) And Energy everything else...or isit radiation... This makes no sense by that said above and by other reasons (e.g., neutrinos are matter). Colud you give to me an formula that include all these concepts (matter, antimatter, dark matter and energy, energy, radiation,...) Neutrinos are considered normal matterr or dark matter?...I have understud that neutrinos doesn´t has matter...(gravitrons). According to the standard cosmological model the energy in the universe is not conserved during space expansion: i.e., energy varies with time. Then... it is increasing or decreasing?...from what or on what is energy transformed (matter,...)? Because, the Universe is a closed System....or it is not?...Does the energy comes or goes out of the Universe (to other Universes)? Antimatter is not negative matter. In fact "negative matter" is a meaningless term. Dark matter is added to matter and dark energy is to energy. "Antienergy" is another meaningless term OK...thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanrga Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 So, please could you giveme a formula to understand?... Energy=matter (proton, neutron, neutrinos (?), Higgs, gravitrón,...) + radiation (EM waves, photon, electron,...) ? As said before energy is not equal to matter. Why do you equal both again? Matter includes proton, neutron, neutrinos, electrons,... EM waves are radiation and EM waves are made of photons. I understud by matter any thing that has gravity field (??)....Gravitrons (?) And Energy everything else...or isit radiation... Matter has nonzero mass: proton, neutron, neutrinos, electrons,... have mass. Radiation (e.g. EM radiation) is made of photons and photons are masless. Colud you give to me an formula that include all these concepts (matter, antimatter, dark matter and energy, energy, radiation,...) Neutrinos are considered normal matterr or dark matter?...I have understud that neutrinos doesn´t has matter...(gravitrons). I think I already explained to you that dark energy is a kind of energy, that dark matter is supposed to be a new kind of matter, that both matter and radiation have a property named energy... I cannot write a 'formula' as that you tried before, because it does not exist. You are mixing concepts. Neutrinos are ordinary matter. Then... it is increasing or decreasing?...from what or on what is energy transformed (matter,...)? Because, the Universe is a closed System....or it is not?...Does the energy comes or goes out of the Universe (to other Universes)? Energy decreases according to the standard cosmological model. As already said energy is not conserved in that model, therefore the energy lost is not coming from anywhere. By definition the universe is an isolated system and no other universes can physical exist ("uni" means "one"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dapifo Posted July 27, 2012 Author Share Posted July 27, 2012 As said before energy is not equal to matter. Why do you equal both again? Matter includes proton, neutron, neutrinos, electrons,... EM waves are radiation and EM waves are made of photons. Matter has nonzero mass: proton, neutron, neutrinos, electrons,... have mass. Radiation (e.g. EM radiation) is made of photons and photons are masless. I never said that Energy = Matter I questined if Energy = Matter + Radiation?... What name has the sume Matter + Radiation? What happen with Einstein formula: E=mc^2....m=mass...I though MASS is a messure of MATTER Wikipedia say tha Universe is compound of : 70% Dark Energy + 25% Dark matter + 5% Matter (H2 + He + Neutrinos + Stars + Heavy Eem.)... Were is ther the radiation (EM, photons,...)?.. Within the matter? I think I already explained to you that dark energy is a kind of energy, that dark matter is supposed to be a new kind of matter, that both matter and radiation have a property named energy... I cannot write a 'formula' as that you tried before, because it does not exist. You are mixing concepts. Neutrinos are ordinary matter. You mean that ENERGY is only a property of RADIATION and MATTER? Energy decreases according to the standard cosmological model. As already said energy is not conserved in that model, therefore the energy lost is not coming from anywhere. By definition the universe is an isolated system and no other universes can physical exist ("uni" means "one"). When you say that ENERGY decrease.. where is going the losssed energy?... Does it transforms into mass or desapear? Really I am now very confusing !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanrga Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 I never said that Energy = Matter I questined if Energy = Matter + Radiation?... What name has the sume Matter + Radiation? Let me try again. Energy is a property of matter and of radiation. Your "energy=matter+Radiation" makes no sense because you are mixing a property of a system with the own system. It is so nonensical like saying "speed=car+motorbike". What happen with Einstein formula: E=mc^2....m=mass...I though MASS is a messure of MATTER That formula gives the energy E of a piece of matter (with mass m) when the piece is at rest. When the matter is moving its energy E is not given by that formula. Here m and E are properties of the matter. Wikipedia say tha Universe is compound of : 70% Dark Energy + 25% Dark matter + 5% Matter (H2 + He + Neutrinos + Stars + Heavy Eem.)... Were is ther the radiation (EM, photons,...)?.. Within the matter? Radiation is in many places, for instance it is travelling from the Sun to Earth through the empty space between both. Radiation is not within matter. You mean that ENERGY is only a property of RADIATION and MATTER? Yes, this is explained in any textbook on physics. For instance textbooks explain you how to compute the kinetic energy of a balloon moving with speed v or the potential energy of the Moon due to the Earth gravitational field. When you say that ENERGY decrease.. where is going the losssed energy?... Does it transforms into mass or desapear? Really I am now very confusing !!!! The lost energy is going nowhere in the standard cosmological model because energy is not conserved in this model. In a sense it disappears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dapifo Posted July 27, 2012 Author Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) Energy is a property of matter and of radiation......It is so nonensical like saying "speed=car+motorbike" Wikipedia say that Universe is compound of : 70% Dark Energy + 25% Dark matter + 5% Matter Why here the energy is considered as an entity and not as a property?...how can they sume Dark Energy and Dark Matter + Matter ? It is like sume speed+car+motorbike !!! Radiation is in many places, for instance it is travelling from the Sun to Earth through the empty space between both. Radiation is not within matter. Radiation is not inside an atom?...and the weak and strong fields? The lost energy is going nowhere in the standard cosmological model because energy is not conserved in this model. In a sense it disappears. If the Universe is a closed system...and the Energy desapears along the time... at the end Energy = 0?...then,what will happend with the matter and radiatios?...they will be without energy? Edited July 27, 2012 by dapifo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robheus Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) radiation = energy?...or energy = matter+radiation?..... energy=radiation+dark energy?....what do you mean? Total Energy+matter = Matter - Antimatter + Energy (Radiation+neutrinos+...) + Dark Matter + Dark Energy ? It is very important your assertion that "According to standard cosmological model, energy is not conserved in the Universe" ...so do you mean that energy could change in the Universe during the time?...And Total Energy+matter is constant? I reffer to that : - Antimatter is considered like negative matter ?...Then Total matter = mattter - antimatter - Neutrinos are considered as energy? - Dark matter& energy...are considered whithin the Total amount of energy+matter? Does the Antienergy exist?...or not? Anti-matter has POSITIVE mass, just that it has OPPOSITE electric charge. Negative mass matter does not exist, if it would exist, it would have weird properties (acceleration of object would be in the opposiite direction of the force, etc.) If the Universe is a closed system...and the Energy desapears along the time... at the end Energy = 0?...then,what will happend with the matter and radiatios?...they will be without energy? The universe is not closed in the sense that it has a boundary. Edited July 27, 2012 by robheus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dapifo Posted July 27, 2012 Author Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) Anti-matter has POSITIVE mass, just that it has OPPOSITE electric charge. Negative mass matter does not exist, if it would exist, it would have weird properties (acceleration of object would be in the opposiite direction of the force, etc.) Matter+Antimatter = photon (energy)... but mass desapear...then they would have positive and negative mass... The universe is not closed in the sense that it has a boundary. What do you mean?...Is the Universe a closed system or not (withor without boundaries)? Edited July 27, 2012 by dapifo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantheory Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) Actually antimatter has been produced and captured for as long as 16 minutes. It is quite solidly confirmed. Yep, that's true. Positrons are anti-matter and there is much evidence that they are quite stable and long lasting. Anti-protons which are also anti-matter, on the other hand, have only been stored for a limited period of time but theoretically are thought to be stable particles according to the standard model. If they are not totally stable such as a lifetime of a million years or less, for example, this might be the simplest explanation why we observe far more matter than anti-matter. // Edited July 27, 2012 by pantheory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanrga Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 (edited) Wikipedia say that Universe is compound of : 70% Dark Energy + 25% Dark matter + 5% Matter Why here the energy is considered as an entity and not as a property?...how can they sume Dark Energy and Dark Matter + Matter ? It is like sume speed+car+motorbike !!! I do not know what the Wiki exactly says, but it can be weird sometimes. Radiation is not inside an atom?...and the weak and strong fields? You can has an atom in 'superposition' with electromagnetic radiation. Fields spread over all the space, they are not confined into an atom. If the Universe is a closed system...and the Energy desapears along the time... at the end Energy = 0?...then,what will happend with the matter and radiatios?...they will be without energy? I prefer the term isolated rather than closed. In the standard cosmological model energy disappears due to space expansion. Some claims that the model predicts (for the infinite future) an infinite universe with zero density of energy (this is sometimes named the cold death of universe). I do not take anything of this seriously. Matter+Antimatter = photon (energy)... but mass desapear...then they would have positive and negative mass... No. Both matter and antimatter have positive mass as said to you before. In fact, antiparticles have exactly the same mass than particles. You continue using an equal sign "=" where there is none (I already explained this to you before). The process of annihilation of one electron [math]e^{-}[/math] and one antielectron (positron) [math]e^{+}[/math] into two photons [math]\gamma[/math], and the inverse process (creation of a pair particle-antiparticle from two photon) is [math]e^{-} + e^{+} \rightleftarrows 2 \gamma[/math] Edited July 28, 2012 by juanrga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dapifo Posted July 28, 2012 Author Share Posted July 28, 2012 (edited) I do not know what the Wiki exactly says, but it can be weird sometimes. You can see for your self...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe See attached figure !!! Radiation is not within matter. What do you mean?... Strong and Weak field doesn´t have radiation? You can has an atom in 'superposition' with electromagnetic radiation. Fields spread over all the space, they are not confined into an atom. What do you mean? I prefer the term isolated rather than closed. In the standard cosmological model energy disappears due to space expansion. Some claims that the model predicts (for the infinite future) an infinite universe with zero density of energy (this is sometimes named the cold death of universe). I do not take anything of this seriously. But this is only true because if you divide ENERGY / INFINITY = 0 !!!...But not because energy desapear.... No. Both matter and antimatter have positive mass as said to you before. In fact, antiparticles have exactly the same mass than particles. You continue using an equal sign "=" where there is none (I already explained this to you before). The process of annihilation of one electron [math]e^{-}[/math] and one antielectron (positron) [math]e^{+}[/math] into two photons [math]\gamma[/math], and the inverse process (creation of a pair particle-antiparticle from two photon) is[math]e^{-} + e^{+} \rightleftarrows 2 \gamma[/math] Ok...thanks Edited July 28, 2012 by dapifo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanrga Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 You can see for your self...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe See attached figure !!! The figure does not say that "energy is considered as an entity and not as a property". They simply take the different contributions to the right hand side of Hilbert & Einstein equations and obtain percentages. E.g. they compute the energy due to Stars and compare with the dark energy. Instead writing "energy of the stars" in the figure, they simply the figure by writting simply "stars". Strong and Weak field doesn´t have radiation? What do you mean by a field has radiation? This is the first time that I read a phrase as that. But this is only true because if you divide ENERGY / INFINITY = 0 !!!...But not because energy desapear.... Who said you that they are dividing total energy by total volume? I wrote "density of energy". This is [math]\rho=dE/dV[/math] and goes to zero because [math]dE[/math] does. What part of "In the standard cosmological model energy disappears due to space expansion" you missed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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