Thomas.Jefferson

[rigney]

Since I can't possibly attest this sqeezed up and margionalized version of Jefferson's Bio, I suggest you read it with tongue in cheek and give it some thought.

 

Thomas Jefferson; Read it in its entirety.

 

Thomas Jefferson was a very remarkable man who started learning very early in life and never stopped.

At 5, began studying under his cousin's tutor.

At 9, studied Latin, Greek and French.

At 14, studied classical literature and additional languages.

At 16, entered the College of William and Mary.

At 19, studied Law for 5 years starting under George Wythe.

At 23, started his own law practice.

At 25, was elected to the Virginia House of Burgesses.

At 31, wrote the widely circulated "Summary View of the Rights of British America⤠and retired from his law practice.

At 32, was a Delegate to the Second Continental Congress.

At 33, wrote the Declaration of Independence .

At 33, took three years to revise Virginia 's legal code and wrote a Public Education bill and a statute for Religious Freedom.

At 36, was elected the second Governor of Virginia succeeding Patrick Henry.

At 40, served in Congress for two years.

At 41, was the American minister to France and negotiated commercial treaties with European nations along with Ben Franklin and John Adams.

At 46, served as the first Secretary of State under George Washington.

At 53, served as Vice President and was elected president of the American Philosophical Society.

At 55, drafted the Kentucky Resolutions and became the active head of Republican Party.

At 57, was elected the third president of the United States .

At 60, obtained the Louisiana Purchase doubling the nation's size.

At 61, was elected to a second term as President.

At 65, retired to Monticello .

At 80, helped President Monroe shape the Monroe Doctrine.

At 81, almost single-handedly created the University of Virginia and served as its first president.

At 83, died on the 50th anniversary of the Signing of the Declaration of Independence along with John Adams.

 

Thomas Jefferson knew because he himself studied the previous failed attempts at government. He understood actual history, the nature of God, his laws and the nature of man. That happens to be way more than what most understand today. Jefferson really knew his stuff. A voice from the past to lead us in the future:

 

John F. Kennedy held a dinner in the white House for a group of the brightest minds in the nation at that time. He made this statement: "This is perhaps the assembly of the most intelligence ever to gather at one time in the White House with the exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone."

 

"When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe , we shall become as corrupt as Europe ." -- Thomas Jefferson

 

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

-- Thomas Jefferson

 

"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."

-- Thomas Jefferson

 

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." -- Thomas Jefferson

 

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government." -- Thomas Jefferson

 

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson

 

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

-- Thomas Jefferson

 

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

 

"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."

-- Thomas Jefferson

 

Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:

 

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.

 

If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property - until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

Edited August 1, 2012 by rigney

[ecoli]

I'm surprised you're such a fan... considering the Louisiana Purchase was made by executive order: surely a breach of the president's constitutional power.

[rigney]

I'm surprised you're such a fan... considering the Louisiana Purchase was made by executive order: surely a breach of the president's constitutional power.

Obtained doesn't come close to " You didn't do that yourself"

[uncool]

Rigney, this is a prime example of a manipulative piece of propaganda. While the factual section - the "At <age>" part - seems to be accurate, everything that comes afterwards is written with subtle nuances to shift your views.

 

Since I can't possibly attest this sqeezed up and margionalized version of Jefferson's Bio, I suggest you read it with tongue in cheek and give it some thought.

 

Thomas Jefferson; Read it in its entirety.

 

Thomas Jefferson was a very remarkable man who started learning very early in life and never stopped.

 

<Snip>

 

Thomas Jefferson knew

Knew what?

because he himself studied the previous failed attempts at government.

And others hadn't? Thomas Jefferson studied the standard for history at the time. His education in history was not very different from the education that many other pupils at William and Mary got.

He understood actual history,

This is a perfect example of propaganda. The word "actual" is designed to make you think that Jefferson is the only person who understood history. First, by saying that "He understood actual history," it implies that even though others studied history, they didn't understand it like he did. Second, it says that there is actual history, which implies that there is some "history" which isn't "actual". This is a subtle denigration of the current study of history. It also says that others have studied fake history - that the lessons they took away from history are wrong because they went for the wrong history. A sentence like this is one of the most deceptive, propagandistic things a person can fall for.

 

the nature of God,

Considering that Jefferson thought that Jesus was at most a great moral teacher and that he was not at all supernatural, I'm not sure the writer of this post is being entirely truthful with you.

his laws and the nature of man.

Again, the implication so far is that Thomas Jefferson was the only one who understood history and the nature of man, and by now, most readers who like this e-mail pretty much take that implication to heart.

That happens to be way more than what most understand today. Jefferson really knew his stuff.[/QUOTe]

Again, the implication being that no one else does, that Jefferson was a sole visionary. That's not how things worked.

A voice from the past to lead us in the future:

 

John F. Kennedy held a dinner in the white House for a group of the brightest minds in the nation at that time. He made this statement: "This is perhaps the assembly of the most intelligence ever to gather at one time in the White House with the exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone."

Now, this is a good note to start off on, because it's an actual quote. (Note that my use of the word actual is exactly the same as the word actual used above - it implies that there are several quotes that are not "actual", which already has you thinking that someone is being dishonest) However, note that none of these quotes are cited. That is a prime warning that there probably are some fake quotes mixed in.

"When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe , we shall become as corrupt as Europe ." -- Thomas Jefferson

True quote.

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

-- Thomas Jefferson

False quote.

"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."

-- Thomas Jefferson [/QUOTe]

True.

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." -- Thomas Jefferson [/QUOTe]

True.

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government." -- Thomas Jefferson

False quote.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson

True quote, but deceptive. The full quote is ""No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms [within his own lands]", and it was proposed for the Virginia Constitution. Without that context, it looks like Jefferson is making a much stronger statement.

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

-- Thomas Jefferson [/QUOTe]

False quote.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

True.

"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."

-- Thomas Jefferson

Misquote. The real quote is " "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. "

Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:

 

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.

 

If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property - until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

Unfortunately, it ends on a false quote.

 

Sources: http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/j/jefferson-quotes.htm, http://www.snopes.com/quotes/jefferson/banks.asp

 

Obtained doesn't come close to " You didn't do that yourself"

Really?

 

An out-and-out direct abuse of executive power that doubled the size of the nation doesn't come close to 5 seconds in a speech? Not only that, but 5 seconds which (as we have demonstrated) served only to say that no man is an island?

=Uncool-

Edited August 1, 2012 by uncool

[rigney]

Rigney, this is a prime example of a manipulative piece of propaganda. While the factual section - the "At <age>" part - seems to be accurate, everything that comes afterwards is written with subtle nuances to shift your views.

 

 

Knew what?

 

And others hadn't? Thomas Jefferson studied the standard for history at the time. His education in history was not very different from the education that many other pupils at William and Mary got.

 

This is a perfect example of propaganda. The word "actual" is designed to make you think that Jefferson is the only person who understood history. First, by saying that "He understood actual history," it implies that even though others studied history, they didn't understand it like he did. Second, it says that there is actual history, which implies that there is some "history" which isn't "actual". This is a subtle denigration of the current study of history. It also says that others have studied fake history - that the lessons they took away from history are wrong because they went for the wrong history. A sentence like this is one of the most deceptive, propagandistic things a person can fall for.

 

 

Considering that Jefferson thought that Jesus was at most a great moral teacher and that he was not at all supernatural, I'm not sure the writer of this post is being entirely truthful with you.

 

Again, the implication so far is that Thomas Jefferson was the only one who understood history and the nature of man, and by now, most readers who like this e-mail pretty much take that implication to heart.

 

Again, the implication being that no one else does, that Jefferson was a sole visionary. That's not how things worked.

 

Now, this is a good note to start off on, because it's an actual quote. (Note that my use of the word actual is exactly the same as the word actual used above - it implies that there are several quotes that are not "actual", which already has you thinking that someone is being dishonest) However, note that none of these quotes are cited. That is a prime warning that there probably are some fake quotes mixed in.

 

True quote.

 

False quote.

 

True.

 

True.

 

False quote.

 

True quote, but deceptive. The full quote is ""No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms [within his own lands]", and it was proposed for the Virginia Constitution. Without that context, it looks like Jefferson is making a much stronger statement.

 

False quote.

 

True.

 

Misquote. The real quote is " "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. "

 

Unfortunately, it ends on a false quote.

 

Sources: http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/j/jefferson-quotes.htm, http://www.snopes.com/quotes/jefferson/banks.asp

 

 

Really?

 

An out-and-out direct abuse of executive power that doubled the size of the nation doesn't come close to 5 seconds in a speech? Not only that, but 5 seconds which (as we have demonstrated) served only to say that no man is an island?

=Uncool-

I believe Dunn made that last statement. Let's not dissolve such proclivity by dumped it into politics or herasy. Edited August 1, 2012 by rigney

[uncool]

I believe Dunn made that last statement.

I do not see any such attribution to him on the internet. Source?

Let's not dissolve such proclivity by dumped it into politics or herasy.

Uh. What are you trying to say?

=Uncool-

[Athena]

Everyone was not as well educated as Jefferson. Those who were considered literate were literate in Greek and Roman classics. Cicero, the Roman statesman who was devoted to defending Rome's democracy, was a must read for anyone interested in politics, but I am not sure George Washington paid as much attention to education as did Ben Franklin and Jefferson. I think Washington was a more practical man, than an intellectual one. However, Washington and many others were Masons, and this was very important to their understand of life. Washington D.C. was designed by the Masons using astronomically figured location of buildings and dates of construction. They worked with the hope of a New Age, when education would enlighten all men, and they greatly admired Egypt, the Greeks and Rome.

 

Washington was favored because of his physical attractiveness as a tall man who naturally was highly respected, but he was not the most learned.

I would say Benjamin Franklin was wiser than Washington, Hamilton was more brilliant, Jefferson was more intellectually sophisticated, Adams was more engaging … Madison was more politically astute, but Washington was still the greatest. And they would all agree to that. Joseph Ellis

It was a Scotsman who was most responsible Jefferson's education, and it is the culture of the Scots that has particular importance in shaping the man that Jefferson was to become. Jefferson had a large library, and traveled the world collecting useful plants and experimenting with the growing of them on his plantation, contributing much to knowledge of growing food. He was devoted to developing public schools, and I think among Jefferson's most important quotes are the one's on education.

 

Quotations on Education

1782. (Notes on the State of Virginia) "Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories. And to render them safe, their minds must be improved to a certain degree."

 

1785 August 19. (to Peter Carr) "An honest heart being the first blessing, a knowing head is the second."[1]

 

1786 August 13. (to George Wythe) "I think by far the most important bill in our whole code is that for the diffusion of knowledge among the people. No other sure foundation can be devised, for the preservation of freedom and happiness...Preach, my dear Sir, a crusade against ignorance; establish & improve the law for educating the common people. Let our countrymen know that the people alone can protect us against these evils [tyranny, oppression, etc.] and that the tax which will be paid for this purpose is not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid to kings, priests and nobles who will rise up among us if we leave the people in ignorance."[2]

 

1786 August 27. (to Thomas Mann Randolph) "Knowledge indeed is a desirable, a lovely possession."[3]

 

1787 December 20. (to James Madison) "Above all things I hope the education of the common people will be attended to ; convinced that on their good sense we may rely with the most security for the preservation of a due degree of liberty."[4]

 

1789 January 8. (to Richard Price) "...wherever the people are well informed they can be trusted with their own government..."[5]

 

1810 May 6. (to the Trustees of the Lottery for East Tennessee College) "No one more sincerely wishes the spread of information among mankind than I do, and none has greater confidence in it's effect towards supporting free & good government."[6]

 

1816 January 6. (to Charles Yancey) "If a nation expects to be ignorant & free, in a state of civilisation, it expects what never was & never will be."[7]

 

1816 April 24. (to Dupont de Nemours) "Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day . . . . I believe it [human condition] susceptible of much improvement, and most of all, in matters of government and religion; and that the diffusion of knowledge among the people is to be the instrument by which it is effected."[8]

 

1818 January 14. (to Joseph C. Cabell) "Now let us see what the present primary schools cost us, on the supposition that all the children of 10. 11. & 12. years old are, as they ought to be, at school: and, if they are not, so much the work is the system; for they will be untaught, and their ignorance & vices will, in future life cost us much dearer in their consequences, than it would have done, in their correction, by a good education."[9]

 

1818 January 14. (to Joseph C. Cabell) "A system of general instruction, which shall reach every description of our citizens from the richest to the poorest, as it was the earliest, so will it be the latest, of all the public concerns in which I shall permit myself to take an interest."[10]

 

1818 August 4. "The objects of this primary eduction [university education] determine its character and limits. These objects are To give to every citizen the information he needs for the transaction of his own business; To enable him to calculate for himself, and to express and preserve his ideas, his contracts and accounts, in writing; To improve by reading, his morals and faculties; To understand his duties to his neighbors and country, and to discharge with competence the functions confided to him by either; To know his rights; to exercise with order and justice those he retains; to choose with discretion the fiduciary of those he delegates; and to notice their conduct with diligence, with candor and judgement; And, in general, to observe with intelligence and faithfulness all the social relations under which he shall be placed. To instruct the mass of our citizens in these, their rights, interests and duties, as men and citizens, being then the objects of education in the primary schools, whether privet or public, in them should be taught reading, writing and numerical arithmetic, the elements of mensuration...and the outlines of geography and history."[11]

 

1820 September 28. (to William C. Jarvis) "I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society, but the people themselves: and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their controul with a wholsome discretion, the remedy is, not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. this is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power."[12]

 

1822 October 21. (to C.C. Blatchly) "I look to the diffusion of light and education as the resource to be relied on for ameliorating the condition, promoting the virtue, and advancing the happiness of man."[13]

 

1824 March 27. (to Edward Everett) "The qualifications for self-government in society are not innate. They are the result of habit and long training."[14]

 

http://www.monticell...tions-education

 

"The Laws of Nature and Nature's God", comes from Cicero. Understanding what this means is perhaps the most part of understanding Jefferson's defense of democracy, as it goes with the reasoning that we are capable of reason and therefore capable of governing ourselves by reason. However, this does not stand alone with Cicero and Jefferson, but was also a principle of native American federation, that we are beings of reason and capable of living by reason. It was believed a great spirit teacher had taught them reason is the way of peace.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Athena

[rigney]

My mistake uncool. It was John Donne, not Dunn.

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/no-man-is-an-island/

Edited August 2, 2012 by rigney

[JohnB]

This is a perfect example of propaganda. The word "actual" is designed to make you think that Jefferson is the only person who understood history. First, by saying that "He understood actual history," it implies that even though others studied history, they didn't understand it like he did. Second, it says that there is actual history, which implies that there is some "history" which isn't "actual". This is a subtle denigration of the current study of history. It also says that others have studied fake history - that the lessons they took away from history are wrong because they went for the wrong history. A sentence like this is one of the most deceptive, propagandistic things a person can fall for.

 

Except for the above, I agree with your comment uncool. There really is an "actual" and a "fake" history. This doesn't refer so much to actual events, but to the reasons behind the events. The lack of female authors in literature until the last 100 years or so can be put down to the nearsightedness of males of the times refusing to believe that women could contribute or it could be because of a directed effort by the Patriarchy to force women to remain in a subordinate position. Real history is what happened, fake history is what you get after reviewing and interpreting history through the lens of ideology.

 

Those who understand real history understand that things happen because human beings are human, with all the frailties that this implies. If there is a corner that can be cut or a way to siphon off some cash into the right pocket then rest assured that somebody will find and exploit it. And it won't because they are black, or white, or male, or female, or short or tall, it will be because they are human and that is exactly what humans do. If you are going to set up the governance of a nation, then you had better base it on the knowledge of what people are and not on the ideological dreams of what they could be.

 

Also there is no need for subtle denigration. It has been my experience with history students of late that they are being taught ideology and not history. But that could just be my local university too, or it could be I was simply talking to morons.

Edited August 3, 2012 by JohnB

[stopthelies1]

Obtained doesn't come close to " You didn't do that yourself"

 

 

YOU DID NOT AND CANNOT DO IT OUR SELF, every business has to have customers, ERGO, you do not do it your selves. If you do not like this or cannot accept this you are completely avoiding thinking.

 

Since I can't possibly attest this sqeezed up and margionalized version of Jefferson's Bio, I suggest you read it with tongue in cheek and give it some thought.

 

Thomas Jefferson; Read it in its entirety.

 

Thomas Jefferson was a very remarkable man who started learning very early in life and never stopped.

At 5, began studying under his cousin's tutor.

At 9, studied Latin, Greek and French.

At 14, studied classical literature and additional languages.

At 16, entered the College of William and Mary.

At 19, studied Law for 5 years starting under George Wythe.

At 23, started his own law practice.

At 25, was elected to the Virginia House of Burgesses.

At 31, wrote the widely circulated "Summary View of the Rights of British America⤠and retired from his law practice.

At 32, was a Delegate to the Second Continental Congress.

At 33, wrote the Declaration of Independence .

At 33, took three years to revise Virginia 's legal code and wrote a Public Education bill and a statute for Religious Freedom.

At 36, was elected the second Governor of Virginia succeeding Patrick Henry.

At 40, served in Congress for two years.

At 41, was the American minister to France and negotiated commercial treaties with European nations along with Ben Franklin and John Adams.

At 46, served as the first Secretary of State under George Washington.

At 53, served as Vice President and was elected president of the American Philosophical Society.

At 55, drafted the Kentucky Resolutions and became the active head of Republican Party.

At 57, was elected the third president of the United States .

At 60, obtained the Louisiana Purchase doubling the nation's size.

At 61, was elected to a second term as President.

At 65, retired to Monticello .

At 80, helped President Monroe shape the Monroe Doctrine.

At 81, almost single-handedly created the University of Virginia and served as its first president.

At 83, died on the 50th anniversary of the Signing of the Declaration of Independence along with John Adams.

 

Thomas Jefferson knew because he himself studied the previous failed attempts at government. He understood actual history, the nature of God, his laws and the nature of man. That happens to be way more than what most understand today. Jefferson really knew his stuff. A voice from the past to lead us in the future:

 

John F. Kennedy held a dinner in the white House for a group of the brightest minds in the nation at that time. He made this statement: "This is perhaps the assembly of the most intelligence ever to gather at one time in the White House with the exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone."

 

"When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe , we shall become as corrupt as Europe ." -- Thomas Jefferson

 

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

-- Thomas Jefferson

 

"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."

-- Thomas Jefferson

 

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." -- Thomas Jefferson

 

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government." -- Thomas Jefferson

 

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson

 

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

-- Thomas Jefferson

 

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

 

"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."

-- Thomas Jefferson

 

Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:

 

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.

 

If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property - until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

 

Since I can't possibly attest this sqeezed up and margionalized version of Jefferson's Bio, I suggest you read it with tongue in cheek and give it some thought.

 

Thomas Jefferson; Read it in its entirety.

 

Thomas Jefferson was a very remarkable man who started learning very early in life and never stopped.

At 5, began studying under his cousin's tutor.

At 9, studied Latin, Greek and French.

At 14, studied classical literature and additional languages.

At 16, entered the College of William and Mary.

At 19, studied Law for 5 years starting under George Wythe.

At 23, started his own law practice.

At 25, was elected to the Virginia House of Burgesses.

At 31, wrote the widely circulated "Summary View of the Rights of British America⤠and retired from his law practice.

At 32, was a Delegate to the Second Continental Congress.

At 33, wrote the Declaration of Independence .

At 33, took three years to revise Virginia 's legal code and wrote a Public Education bill and a statute for Religious Freedom.

At 36, was elected the second Governor of Virginia succeeding Patrick Henry.

At 40, served in Congress for two years.

At 41, was the American minister to France and negotiated commercial treaties with European nations along with Ben Franklin and John Adams.

At 46, served as the first Secretary of State under George Washington.

At 53, served as Vice President and was elected president of the American Philosophical Society.

At 55, drafted the Kentucky Resolutions and became the active head of Republican Party.

At 57, was elected the third president of the United States .

At 60, obtained the Louisiana Purchase doubling the nation's size.

At 61, was elected to a second term as President.

At 65, retired to Monticello .

At 80, helped President Monroe shape the Monroe Doctrine.

At 81, almost single-handedly created the University of Virginia and served as its first president.

At 83, died on the 50th anniversary of the Signing of the Declaration of Independence along with John Adams.

 

Thomas Jefferson knew because he himself studied the previous failed attempts at government. He understood actual history, the nature of God, his laws and the nature of man. That happens to be way more than what most understand today. Jefferson really knew his stuff. A voice from the past to lead us in the future:

 

John F. Kennedy held a dinner in the white House for a group of the brightest minds in the nation at that time. He made this statement: "This is perhaps the assembly of the most intelligence ever to gather at one time in the White House with the exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone."

 

"When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe , we shall become as corrupt as Europe ." -- Thomas Jefferson

 

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

-- Thomas Jefferson

 

"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."

-- Thomas Jefferson

 

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." -- Thomas Jefferson

 

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government." -- Thomas Jefferson

 

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson

 

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

-- Thomas Jefferson

 

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

 

"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."

-- Thomas Jefferson

 

Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:

 

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.

 

If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property - until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

 

YOU DID NOT AND CANNOT DO IT OUR SELF, every business has to have customers, ERGO, you do not do it your selves. If you do not like this or cannot accept this you are completely avoiding thinking.

 

I hope that you do not rely on this as CREDIBLE information. I looked up some quotes so far NONE are his. I have to go now so I cannot look up the rest, it appears this is a FALSE BIO and one of the internet email HOAXES perpetrated by right wing fananticals trying to justify their positions by spreading false information that they are too lazy to look up and verify. I can finish this later and get back to you.

 

 

4th, 5, 6, 7, the 1802 quote about banking, not Thomas Jefferson!!!!!!!

 

 

 

STOP THE LIES BTW, Obama did NOT raise your taxes, to the contrary he lowered them, however Nitt the Twitt will raise them and lower his and other wealthy peoples.

 

 

 

I hope that you do not rely on this as CREDIBLE information. I looked up some quotes so far NONE are his. I have to go now so I cannot look up the rest, it appears this is a FALSE BIO and one of the internet email HOAXES perpetrated by right wing fananticals trying to justify their positions by spreading false information that they are too lazy to look up and verify. I can finish this later and get back to you.

 

 

 

4th,5, 6, 7, the 1802 quote about banking, not Thomas Jefferson!!!!!!!

 

 

http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2009/02/01/misquoting-jefferson/

 

http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/democracy-will-cease-to-exist-quotation

 

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Thomas_Jefferson

 

 

[JohnB]

YOU DID NOT AND CANNOT DO IT OUR SELF, every business has to have customers, ERGO, you do not do it your selves. If you do not like this or cannot accept this you are completely avoiding thinking.

 

An interesting take on left wing thinking. As a business owner, if I didn't "do it myself", then who did it?

 

Who filled out the required forms to register my business?

Who ordered the stock?

Who organised payment?

Who organised to get stock cleared through Customs?

Who took the photos?

Who made up the catalogue?

Who designed the CD cover art?

Who deals with ASIC?

Who deals with the Tax Office?

Who goes and finds the customers?

Who takes the orders?

Who fills the orders?

Who depatches the orders?

Who writes the invoices?

Who makes sure the clients pay their bills?

 

So who does all this? The business fairy? The only people who have such a simplistic view of the world as yours stopthelies1 are people who have never done it and lack either the ability or courage to try. So to avoid admitting their inferiority, they have to denigrate the achievements of those who are successful.

 

Yes, society is an interwoven tapestry and no man is an island. But every single company out there exists not be magic but because somebody got off his arse and put that arse on the line to start it. To then have that denigrated by some little weed who wouldn't have the balls to try it himself is frankly insulting. All a government can do is create a place where business can exist. The fact that businesses do actually exist is due wholly and solely to those who took the chance and made those businesses exist. Ford exists because Henry Ford decided it would, Apple exists because Steve Jobs decided it would and Microsoft exists because Bill Gates decided it would. In that respect they did do it all on their own.

 

Don't deride the achievements of others because you lack the ability or courage to do what they have done.

 

A final point. Barack Obama was a lawyer. He and his ilk have incomes that are directly based on making it as hard as possible for people or businesses to interact with each other. They produce nothing and contribute in no way to the general wellbeing of the nation. Lawyers are parasites in the true meaning of the word. Lawyers on the government dollar write the most complex laws so that their friends get to "advise" people about those laws on my dollar. Like many before him Obama went into politics. I've never been sure if that is a step up or a step down for a lawyer. About the only real difference is that they go from leeching the private purse to leeching the public one.

[iNow]

Perhaps, "You didn't do it alone," or, "There was tons of infrastructure and support that came from all of us as a society that allowed you to do what you did" would be a way to say where disagreement is less likely?

[Arete]

The fact that businesses do actually exist is due wholly and solely to those who took the chance and made those businesses exist.

 

The point is rather this:

 

 

If you built a business in the USA, you did so either due to the enviroment created by, or directly using resources that the government, and therefore taxpayers developed funded and maintained. You should not be exempt from contributing to that system simply based on the fact you decided to become a business owner.

 

Sure, running a business involves financial risks. It often contributes to employment. A country like the USA benefits considerably from the development of private business and it should be encouraged. BUT and its a big but, to suggest, as some business owners do (see above) , that they did develop their business entirely without assistance and therefore should not have to contribute to taxation, and therefore the various infrastructure systems and services which are critical to the development and success of their business is false.

 

Obama's point was and remains that US business owners are dependent on a number of publicly funded resources for the success of their businesses. In that sense, no, businesses do not actually exist is due wholly and solely to those who took the chance and made those businesses exist. They exist because a publicly infrastructure supported a person who decided to take a financial risk and invest capital in a private business venture. That's not in any way meant to belittle business owners, dismiss the benefits they have for society, but no man or business is an island.

[John Cuthber]

Lots of fine words from the late Mr Jefferson there.

I particularly liked this one

"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."

 

So, if I start a business that relies on roads, educated staff, the web, intellectual property rights, the lack of general crime, and so on which are provided to me by the government then Mr Jefferson tells me that I should pay that debt back.

Well, it's called tax.

Stop whining about it.

[JohnB]

Perhaps, "You didn't do it alone," or, "There was tons of infrastructure and support that came from all of us as a society that allowed you to do what you did" would be a way to say where disagreement is less likely?

 

I'd have to agree iNow, that was really my point. Something that Arete totally missed.

 

All those things in the pic are where society created conditions where the business could exist, but the fact that that particular lumber company does exist is due to the owner. (BTW, I think the bloke in the pic is a twit)

 

Put it another way. You can have timber yards and steel mills and shipyards and all the ancillary suppliers you want, but until someone starts a "Cunard Line" you haven't got any Ocean Liners. There has been animal gut and wood around since before man was man, but it took a human to put these things together and make a bow.

 

I must also add that in my list was "Dealing with the Tax Office" and am at a loss as to how that is interpreted as thinking I needn't pay tax. Of course you pay tax, so long as it isn't excessive.

 

I think we are looking at things from differing perspectives. While the infrastructure is required to exist for something to happen, just the existence of the infrastructure is not enough an impetus is required. I look at the impetus.

 

How about we take 50,000 tons of concrete and 50,000 tons of steel. If we wish really, really hard it might become an office block. But it won't. It will only become an office block if someone decides to build an office block. The infrastructure allows for the material to be potentially anything, but for it to become something in reality requires the driver. So society creates the place where things could exist, but the only reason that they do exist is due to the individual.

 

But the bottom line in handing out the awards is that society only gets kudos for allowing things to happen, that they actually did happen is totally due to the individual concerned. Remember that with the exception of the internal combustion engine all the materials and know how were available to build a Wright Flyer for about 400 years. Add to that a long history of rocketry and you would wonder why a rocket powered version wasn't around in the 1700s.

 

Just because conditions are right doesn't mean that things will spontaneously come into being, it takes an individual to make it happen. And in that respect, he or she does do it all on his/her own.

[rigney]

Throughout the first half of my life I met several outstanding men who made a very good living by farming, growing grain that they turned into a a fine mash, thus producing a swell alcoholic beverage. They bought autos, homes, frequented the better stores and sent their children to school. Their only problem was that government was always trying to put these guys in jail, not help them. I wonder why? By the way, they never got a single dime of subsidy or food stamps from our government. However they did use the roads on which they had already been taxed to the hilt.

Edited August 21, 2012 by rigney

[John Cuthber]

Throughout the first half of my life I met several outstanding men who made a very good living by farming, growing grain that they turned into a a fine mash, thus producing a swell alcoholic beverage. They bought autos, homes, frequented the better stores and sent their children to school. Their only problem was that government was always trying to put these guys in jail, not help them. I wonder why? By the way, they never got a single dime of subsidy or food stamps from our government. However they did use the roads on which they had already been taxed to the hilt.

So now you are relying on a bunch of criminals as evidence to bolster your point of view.

OK I'll bite.

I never was a big consumer of illicit drink and I suspect that most of the alcohol sold round here is taxed.

However, as a scientist, I know that the harm done by alcohol is broadly proportional to the amount of it consumed.

I'm sure we all know of people who have fallen foul of drinking too much- you tend to see them on street-corners or (if that's your line of work) on a mortuary slab.

 

There's no question that alcohol has a real cost to society.

Yet you question society's justification in trying to reclaim that cost?

Why is that?

 

Also, while it's by no means a perfect way to do it, raising the price of alcohol reduces consumption. In doing so it reduces the net harm done.

 

Then there's the idea that, if people get into the habit of disobeying one law they may be less inclined to obey others.

Again, that's a detriment to society.

 

If you want to live in an anarchist state that's fine by me. Go to Somalia- it's pretty close to anarchy: I don't think you would have much problem with the tax system there.

 

If, on the other hand, you want to have laws and you want those laws enforced then you have to accept the need for a government. That needs to get its money from somewhere. Personally I don't mind paying duty on drink- I could, after all, perfectly easily avoid it. As taxes go, it seems quite a benign one to me.

Tell me, what would you prefer to see taxed instead?

 

Incidentally,

while you are pondering that, perhaps you would like to nip over to this thread

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/68375-has-the-republican-party-lost-its-collective-mind/

and answer the questions asked of you there.

Edited August 21, 2012 by John Cuthber