Treading Water from the right.

[padren]

Since everyone wants the tax system changed, yet it only keeps getting more complicated, that should tell us someone wants it to stay that way.

 

The problem is any wide sweeping tax reforms would require a team of tax surgeons with both Ds and Rs after their names... and neither side trusts the other with a scalpel - even while watching over each other's shoulders.

 

Most Republicans want tax loopholes closed on principle, but don't want Democrats to use that as an excuse to generate higher overall tax payments - ie, that the loopholes need to be closed and offset with an overall lowered tax burden. Most Democrats want tax loopholes closed on principle too, and largely don't mind if that all goes back to the taxpayers (the debate on how much tax revenue is actually needed federally is a completely separate issue from tax code implementation), but they don't want it tied to legislation specifically designed to "starve" federal social programs that are already strained.

Of course both have constituents and deep pocketed campaign contributors that want most loopholes closed, just not theirs.

 

Most Democrats would even support massive budget cuts if they could be paid for through improved efficiency (reducing waste while not reducing deliverable services), but that conversation cannot even be opened without Republicans attempting to intentionally sabotage the process scorched-earth style under the guise that all (non-Republican approved) government spending is waste.

[rigney]

Do things always have to be right or left? What happened to the good of the country as a whole, as opposed to what's good for my group.

I guess that being a leaner I'm vurnurable to questioning and quick to react. I really get ticked off when someone sees me as an idiot because of my stance. Nothing should be right or left, but for the good of the people as a whole. Can such a dichodomy ever be resolved? Edited August 1, 2012 by rigney

[Phi for All]

I guess that being a leaner I'm vurnurable to questioning and quick to react. I really get ticked off when someone sees me as an idiot because of my stance. Nothing should be right or left, but for the good of the people as a whole. Can such a dichodomy ever be resolved?

I gotta say this, rigney. No one is calling you an idiot at all. If you sense people talking down to you it's not your stance, it's your failure to support it. You thought Olympic medalists were being taxed on the value of their medals, you were corrected, but you still persisted, changing the goalposts to say that Olympians should get a completely free ride, even from taxes. Then you tried to turn it into a liberal/conservative issue, which baffled most of us, since it's difficult to see how political leaning has anything to do with how athletes are taxed.

 

And now you're saying, "Nothing should be right or left, but for the good of the people as a whole." Right after saying (regarding exempting government employees from paying taxes, including the military), "if you are proposing this as a liberal issue, forget it." Sometimes it's hard to guess what your stance is, and sometimes you misunderstand the issue, but the part that's most frustrating is when you admit that no matter how much evidence we can show you, it's not going to change how you feel about the issue. This is a big problem here, and it's a big problem with our country as a whole.

[swansont]

if you are proposing this as a liberal issue, forget it.

 

Wait, what? If it were proposed as a conservative issue, would that be any different?

[rigney]

The US government doesn't pay the Olympic athletes. It's all private sponsorship, subject to applicable taxes (although there may be some tax breaks on sponsorship for the sponsor). It's also often the springboard for lucrative professional sports careers. And an Olympic medalist would only pay taxes on the medal itself if they sold it.

 

What exactly is your problem with this? It seems completely fair. You seem to have taken offense at the idea of paying taxes on the medals, and when that was proven false, you retain your umbrage and just continue to lash out at everything else that bothers you. That's not healthy.

 

Misinformation from FOX?! Out of context quotes from the right?! Flabbergasted, that's what I am.

The statement wasn't proven false. If so, how? Why is it fair to even mention taxing these medals, or the $25 tho, $15 tho or $10 these kids receive? Some kids make that much on a good weekend pushing crack or junk and will never pay a dime in taxes. It take a ball busting bit of sweat to win a medal. If they are making big bucks through endorsements, commercials or other avenues, sure, that money should be taxed accordingly, amateur or professional. A five year old making tons of cash with their acting skills or in some other cash cow industry should pay taxes the same as a grownup.

 

Wait, what? If it were proposed as a conservative issue, would that be any different?

No! The fact it was on the tube at all aggrevated me. Edited August 2, 2012 by rigney

[Greg H.]

Why is it fair to even mention taxing these medals, or the $25 tho, $15 tho or $10 these kids receive?

 

Because it's income - the source doesn't matter. Income over a certain amount per year generates a tax liability to the government. Regardless of how hard you worked, you pay taxes on the money you earned. Your argument that if you "bust your balls" making the money you shouldn't pay taxes on it could just as easily be applied to construction workers, or firefighters, or a whole host of other professions. Heck by your argument, professional football players should be exempt since they are, quite literally, busting things to earn that money, and training their asses off every season if they want to be successful.

 

It's a bad argument.

[rigney]

Because it's income - the source doesn't matter. Income over a certain amount per year generates a tax liability to the government. Regardless of how hard you worked, you pay taxes on the money you earned. Your argument that if you "bust your balls" making the money you shouldn't pay taxes on it could just as easily be applied to construction workers, or firefighters, or a whole host of other professions. Heck by your argument, professional football players should be exempt since they are, quite literally, busting things to earn that money, and training their asses off every season if they want to be successful.

 

It's a bad argument.

On occasion even those dumb rhinos come up with something that makes sense.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/aug/1/rubio-bill-eliminates-federal-tax-olympic-medals/

 

The sad thing is the main reason everyone is "emotionally charged" on this topic is because our tax system is a festering mess, which everyone hates across the board. Both liberals and conservatives tend to agree entirely on the need to simplify the tax code, which includes clearing out a lot of complex tax breaks.

 

 

We all feel somewhat cheated by the tax system, because we know the opaque complexity is unnecessary and wasteful.

 

 

But instead of discussing the root issues, we are talking about whether Olympic cash prizes should be taxed, and by proxy it seems whether or not this is an indictment against Obama that he did not immediately issue an executive order to remedy this long standing travesty his first day in office.

Well, I'd have to say someone is trying to abolish part of that ignorance now.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/aug/1/rubio-bill-eliminates-federal-tax-olympic-medals/

Edited August 2, 2012 by rigney

[Phi for All]

On occasion even those dumb rhinos come up with something that makes sense.

http://www.washingto...olympic-medals/

 

Well, I'd have to say someone is trying to abolish part of that ignorance now.

http://www.washingto...olympic-medals/

From your link, the first one, not the redundant second one:

 

"We can all agree that these Olympians who dedicate their lives to athletic excellence should not be punished when they achieve it"

Taxes on income do NOT equal punishment, so I call BS. Substitute "NFL Players" for "Olympians" and you can see how the rest of the claim is also BS. And who is Mark Rubio to claim "We can all agree"? This whole thing is a blatant political maneuver. I would sooner exempt non-commissioned military personnel from income taxes before I'd advocate it for Olympic athletes.

 

Btw, if you read the study all this was based on, the taxes on the actual medals themselves are $236, $135 and $2 respectively. Hardly a "punishment" that needs yet more new legislation and additions to the tax codes. Just more hand-waving to make us forget Wall Street crimes, the economy and unemployment.

[rigney]

On Rubio's filing the bill to abolish it, that was absolutely a political move and I can't blame him. And you can't compare professional athletes with Olympians. Most professionals are scouted for their skills prior to college. A great many are given a free pass to a good university or colege based on those skills. To my knowledge, that isn't the way Olympians are picked. As I said before, if an Olympian is making money through other sources, they should be taxed accordingly. Just leave their medals and that one or two time stipend alone.

[Phi for All]

On Rubio's filing the bill to abolish it, that was absolutely a political move and I can't blame him. And you can't compare professional athletes with Olympians. Most professionals are scouted for their skills prior to college. A great many are given a free pass to a good university or colege based on those skills. To my knowledge, that isn't the way Olympians are picked. As I said before, if an Olympian is making money through other sources, they should be taxed accordingly. Just leave their medals and that one or two time stipend alone.

I'm sure you feel the same way about Nobel prize winners. Athlete's only offer entertainment after all, at amateur and professional levels both. Nobel prize winners often advance the global society, and work as hard as any athlete. Or do you think only physical pursuits are worth your special interest?

[Arete]

A great many are given a free pass to a good university or colege based on those skills. To my knowledge, that isn't the way Olympians are picked.

 

Err, plenty of olympic sports will get you a college scholarship

Track and field scholarships

Swimming and Diving Scholarships

Cycling Scholarships

 

And: Olympic wrestlers win up to $250,000 for winning gold.

[padren]

Well, I'd have to say someone is trying to abolish part of that ignorance now.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/aug/1/rubio-bill-eliminates-federal-tax-olympic-medals/

This guy is an opportunist tilting at windmills while giants ravage the landscape, pure and simple.

 

It is bills exactly like this that result in the horrid mess and travesty of a tax code - how much does it cost to add an exemption to tax law?

 

Olympics are once every two years with a finite number of US participants; how much money is really being discussed here, and how much is it going to cost the government to get even more invasive, playing Caesar and pointing its thumb up or down depending on whether, at the given moment, the fervent mob is cheering athletic exceptionalism over that of our soldiers or the other way around. If the Olympics weren't happening this year, the outrage would be over veterans having to pay full price for pork flavored gum at the convenience store.

 

 

Why does Rubio think more government involvement and oversight is the answer, when he rails against it the rest of the time?

 

You'll notice even in your article the News makes no comment on whether the figures are real:

 

Athletes who win a gold medal also earn a $25,000 honorarium — and with it an $8,986 tax bill to the IRS, according to Americans for Tax Reform, which crunched the numbers. That covers both the honorarium and the tax on the value of the gold in the medal itself.

 

This is complete theater, and it could just as easily be this:

 

Does surviving Cancer get you punished by the IRS? According to Americans for Tax Reform, which crunched the numbers , people who survive cancer in 2012 will have paid up to a ballijion times more dollars than those who succumbed to the disease... leading conservative cancer experts in Washington and on Fox News, to ask - why does Obama hate breathing people, is it a Kenyan thing, and is there time to save America from this radical abandonment of our values?

 

I'll see your Olympic athletes and raise you two chemo patients with organ failure. The fact of the matter is, when viewed as an isolated case - every American struggle is an example of exceptionalism, every tax dollar is a "punishment" for breathing and the only "moral" thing to do is reduce everyone's taxes to zero.

 

Yet the world doesn't operate like a bunch of separate isolated issues, we have to pay for things, and every exception we make may very well cost more for the government to manage than the exception saves all the individuals affected combined - especially when dealing with a pool as small as the American Olympics team.

Edited August 2, 2012 by padren

[rigney]

This guy is an opportunist tilting at windmills while giants ravage the landscape, pure and simple.

 

It is bills exactly like this that result in the horrid mess and travesty of a tax code - how much does it cost to add an exemption to tax law?

 

Olympics are once every two years with a finite number of US participants; how much money is really being discussed here, and how much is it going to cost the government to get even more invasive, playing Caesar and pointing its thumb up or down depending on whether, at the given moment, the fervent mob is cheering athletic exceptionalism over that of our soldiers or the other way around. If the Olympics weren't happening this year, the outrage would be over veterans having to pay full price for pork flavored gum at the convenience store.

 

 

Why does Rubio think more government involvement and oversight is the answer, when he rails against it the rest of the time?

 

You'll notice even in your article the News makes no comment on whether the figures are real:

 

 

 

This is complete theater, and it could just as easily be this:

 

 

 

I'll see your Olympic athletes and raise you two chemo patients with organ failure. The fact of the matter is, when viewed as an isolated case - every American struggle is an example of exceptionalism, every tax dollar is a "punishment" for breathing and the only "moral" thing to do is reduce everyone's taxes to zero.

 

Yet the world doesn't operate like a bunch of separate isolated issues, we have to pay for things, and every exception we make may very well cost more for the government to manage than the exception saves all the individuals affected combined - especially when dealing with a pool as small as the American Olympics team.

Why don't we just try banning Olympic participation from this country? Or even go back to the prizes and accolades presented to those first olympians, wreathes made from an olive trees leaves. You want to hear a real hue and cry, do that. Edited August 2, 2012 by rigney

[Moontanman]

Why don't we just try banning Olympic participation from this country? Or even go back to the accolades presented to those first olympians, olive and laural wreathes. You want to hear a real hew and cry, do that.

 

 

Rigney, are you suggesting the medal themselves are worth a huge some of money?

[rigney]

Rigney, are you suggesting the medal themselves are worth a huge some of money?

Nope! I was just trying to look at it from a business mans stand point and the governments interest in taxes being gleaned. Edited August 2, 2012 by rigney

[padren]

Why don't we just try banning Olympic participation from this country? Or even go back to the accolades presented to those first olympians, olive and laural wreathes. You want to hear a real hew and cry, do that.

Why the heck would we want to try banning Olympic participation from this country???

 

Are you truly so upset that American Olympians pay income tax (and always have no less!) that it's not worth participating at all???

 

 

In that case, why don't we all just wallow in muddy rivers all day and ban all music containing vowels?

 

While I don't advocate Olympic athletes as the defacto final authority on economic issues... which athletes are getting screwed by paying taxes on cash prizes? How many of them feel ripped off because of those taxes, versus how many of them feel thankful and happy to pay their taxes?

 

Are you just assuming they feel all sorts of beat up and kicked around by Big Government... or are you in any sense of the word "in touch" with these athletes? Just because you feel like you're acting as a selfless advocate and champion of their sufferings doesn't mean they feel that way. It's "just a theory" but it really sounds like your projecting your own feelings about taxes on them, and that's really not fair to them. It's disrespectful and dehumanizing, and that's another reason Rubio can get bent.

 

No! I was trying to look at it from the business mans point of view and the governments interest in taxes from all of this.

You could ask me - I'm a business man.

[rigney]

Why the heck would we want to try banning Olympic participation from this country???

 

Are you truly so upset that American Olympians pay income tax (and always have no less!) that it's not worth participating at all???

 

 

In that case, why don't we all just wallow in muddy rivers all day and ban all music containing vowels?

 

While I don't advocate Olympic athletes as the defacto final authority on economic issues... which athletes are getting screwed by paying taxes on cash prizes? How many of them feel ripped off because of those taxes, versus how many of them feel thankful and happy to pay their taxes?

 

Are you just assuming they feel all sorts of beat up and kicked around by Big Government... or are you in any sense of the word "in touch" with these athletes? Just because you feel like you're acting as a selfless advocate and champion of their sufferings doesn't mean they feel that way. It's "just a theory" but it really sounds like your projecting your own feelings about taxes on them, and that's really not fair to them. It's disrespectful and dehumanizing, and that's another reason Rubio can get bent.

 

 

You could ask me - I'm a business man.

Are you truly so upset that American Olympians pay income tax (and always have no less!) that it's not worth participating at all???

But what taxes do they pay, and why? And as a business man you're saying you actually want to pay more taxes? Are you in a funny business by any chance?

Edited August 2, 2012 by rigney

[padren]

But what taxes do they pay, and why? And as a business man you're saying you actually want to pay more taxes? Are you in a funny business by any chance?

Even during the Bush years when I had my most crippling tax bill (the year I actually made .com money... the same year of the .com bomb) I honestly felt proud to cut my first 5 digit check to the IRS, even though my income dropped by more than a factor of 10 by the time I had to write it. I had been making $12 an hr up to that point and no shift in the tax margin was going to erase how bloody good it felt to be done with that entire exhausting mess of scrapping by every month.

 

Before then I benefited immensely from programs like ARPANET and because of them, I had the opportunity to create new things that were valuable to people and generated wealth. I even got to be my own boss, and have been since. There is something very rewarding about paying back into the very fund that paid for my entire chosen industry's very early existence.

 

 

But if you want to talk to a serious businessman about taxes, try Warren Buffett.

Edited August 2, 2012 by padren

[rigney]

Even during the Bush years when I had my most crippling tax bill (the year I actually made .com money... the same year of the .com bomb) I honestly felt proud to cut my first 5 digit check to the IRS, even though my income dropped by more than a factor of 10 by the time I had to write it. I had been making $12 an hr up to that point and no shift in the tax margin was going to erase how bloody good it felt to be done with that entire exhausting mess of scrapping by every month.

 

Before then I benefited immensely from programs like ARPANET and because of them, I had the opportunity to create new things that were valuable to people and generated wealth. I even got to be my own boss, and have been since. There is something very rewarding about paying back into the very fund that paid for my entire chosen industry's very early existence.

 

 

But if you want to talk to a serious businessman about taxes, try Warren Buffett.

Not trying to be course but my initial question was, do olympic athletes pay taxes? Them my mind goes back to Jim Thorpe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Thorpe

Wakapedia.It depends on the country. Most Olympians are paid by their government. US Athlete's are not, in fact, US athletes are volunteers. They make money through sponsorships, endorsements, and in some sports prize money. Unfortunately that can add up to be a boatload of cash or not much at all depending on the sport and the individual athlete.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_money_do_Olympic_athletes_make_in_a_year#ixzz22TR8tE2o

I don't want our tax system to go under and I thought my question was certainly within bounds. I also think Olympian athletes don't mind paying taxes on their endorsements. If that was the case, I would contest it vigorously. In your case, I am very glad you are suscessful. But if you want to pay more taxes than the government requires, please do so. I find so few million or billionaires in my life, it's hard for me to say how they feel. I hope you make millions.

Edited August 3, 2012 by rigney

[padren]

Not trying to be course but my initial question was, do olympic athletes pay taxes? Them my mind goes back to Jim Thorpe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Thorpe

Well, the simple answer is: If they are American, and earn a taxable income, then yes - if not, then no.

 

Everything I've read about American Olympic athletes suggests that the vast majority get by on very little income, and those that do become successful through exceptional performance have a very short window to capitalize on it before age and chronic stress injuries erode their advantage.

 

While I understand the emotional sentiment that struggling American Olympians don't need "the additional insult" of a larger tax bill on top of all the other challenges they face - I think it is misplaced and the correct approach is to address those underlying factors that precede the proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back", not the final tax bill which frankly, is small potatoes as far as straws are concerned relative to the weight they already shoulder.

 

I don't want our tax system to go under and I thought my question was certainly within bounds. I also think Olympian athletes don't mind paying taxes on their endorsements. If that was the case, I would contest it vigorously. In your case, I am very glad you are suscessful. But if you want to pay more taxes than the government requires, please do so. I find so few million or billionaires in my life, it's hard for me to say how they feel. I hope you make millions.

Point of clarification - I'd say I've been successful, and still pay the bills but I'm not exactly living the dream again just yet.

 

For me - my concern over taxes is not that I want to pay more or less - I just want to be sure we pay enough. It literally upsets my stomach to think about how on the one hand we have a generation of children inheriting an immense and unmanaged national debt and their own parents standing up screaming "But it's our money! We made it! Don't punish our success with a small marginal upper bracket tax increase!"

 

We borrowed money during the Cold War, on the promise that either we or our children would eventually pick up the bill. That's an understandable trade for keeping the Soviets in check for nearly half of a century without a nuke fired.

 

What is unconscionable in my opinion, is to grand stand on tax and "Giving Americans their hard earn money back!" when we know perfectly well every dollar we "give back" is a dollar that should be replacing one of the fifteen trillion still missing from our children's collective piggy bank.

 

I find that far more obscene than Olympians paying higher taxes following successful years.

 

To be clear - I'm not saying any and all taxes are justified as long as there's a national debt, or that tax increases are the only necessary tool (massive budget cuts are very important too) to repair our budget, I simply find it disingenuous when someone complains about being taxed for success when the very free market system that rewarded their hard work would have been impossible without borrowed money that still hasn't been paid back, and now resides around our children's necks. While the game of thermonuclear chicken did keep global Soviet influence in check and allowed us to profitably expand our access to free markets the world over, it wasn't cheap. That bill is still out there.

Edited August 4, 2012 by padren

[John Cuthber]

Someone does a good job (as it happens, in the entertainment business) and gets paid for it.

 

They get taxed on that income.

 

Where is the story here?

[rigney]

Someone does a good job (as it happens, in the entertainment business) and gets paid for it.

 

They get taxed on that income.

 

Where is the story here?

I'm not quite sure, but I understand a bipartisan bill is going to the floor to stop the proposal of taxing either the medals or cash awards. Edited August 5, 2012 by rigney

[uncool]

I'm not quite sure

Then what were you so angry about in the first post?

=Uncool-

[padren]

I'm not quite sure, but I understand a bipartisan bill is going to the floor to stop the proposal of taxing either the medals or cash awards.

No, Rubio simply decided to turn this into political hay, regardless of chaff and the Democrats aren't dumb enough to openly critique a bill that will undoubtedly boost everyone's approval ratings this November left or right.

 

I am not even all that bothered by the principle of the matter - if we as a nation do want to add more exceptions to enlarge the income tax code for groups that inspire an emotional response, we can do that. What I find troubling is the fact that this "story" broke about a week ago, and we already have a bipartisan bill that will appeal to the emotion of the moment.

 

This means it will be rushed through without much constructive criticism because any criticism taken out of context will be election ad fodder. That suggests to me that most of the time and energy going into this bill focused on using it as a political strategy, which means likely very little due consideration will actually take place.

Edited August 5, 2012 by padren

[rigney]

No, Rubio simply decided to turn this into political hay, regardless of chaff and the Democrats aren't dumb enough to openly critique a bill that will undoubtedly boost everyone's approval ratings this November left or right.

 

I am not even all that bothered by the principle of the matter - if we as a nation do want to add more exceptions to enlarge the income tax code for groups that inspire an emotional response, we can do that. What I find troubling is the fact that this "story" broke about a week ago, and we already have a bipartisan bill that will appeal to the emotion of the moment.

 

This means it will be rushed through without much constructive criticism because any criticism taken out of context will be election ad fodder. That suggests to me that most of the time and energy going into this bill focused on using it as a political strategy, which means likely very little due consideration will actually take place.

I don't write this stuff, so interpret it as you like.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/08/04/congress-makes-bipartisan-effort-to-exempt-olympians-from-taxes-on-winning/

 

Then what were you so angry about in the first post?

=Uncool-

Just stating facts. A person can be upset without frothing at the mouth, although some of us do froth better than others. Edited August 5, 2012 by rigney