Hitler and science

[mooeypoo]

Athena, with due respect, I spent a long time answering your points. I rather you relate to the points I made in the same manner rather than summarize the issue; I think I answered quite a lot of them in the post I wrote to you before, and the points themselves are important. I don't quite see your above answer fully covering the points I made at all, but rather the general idea of what I may have came across if I had 140 characters to deliver my point -- and that's not quite representative of my actual counter claims and explanations to your points...

 

(Though it could serve as an amusing exercise to try...)

[Athena]

I am glad you are still interested. I thought people had lost interest in the thread. Also I tend to be very busy with mundane life, especially since my daughter in law has begun having operations, and my granddaughter needs more of my time.

 

Lots of things were influencial in Nazi germany in a wrong way; that's my point, the Nazis mostly ABUSED these studies; it doesn't mean that if we study these people (even if we emphasize them on the expense of others) we go the same route too.

 

 

I frankly don't know enough about the trends of philosophy in US colleges to judge this. I took about 4 political science and philosophy classes in college, and only in one of them we mentioned Nietzche, and it was a very brief mention. From *my* personal experience, I haven't seen this trend, but I am aware my own experience might very well not be an exampe for a norm.

 

Then again, my point is that it doesn't matter -- even IF we go that route, the comparison to the Nazis is lacking because they abused the messages of the philosophers and twisted themeanings for propaganda-specific education.

 

I hope you're not claiming US colleges do that... and if they don't, then the comparison is lacking.

 

See what I mean?

 

 

There is a huge difference between classical Greek and Roman philosophy, and Germany philosophy. A concept of God plays an important role philosophy.

 

The classical understanding of God comes from a belief in many gods that are abstract explanations of natural forces. These forces of nature are humanized, like we tend to humanize our machines and give them names and speak of their personalities. This is one of understanding "man is the measure of all things". From our point of view, the stories are more interesting and easier to remember, if they are about humans. Greek mythology tells us about nature and human nature.

 

The God of Abraham is completely separate from natural forces, and paradoxically is more is 100% a supernatural being, but is adopted by a religion that opposes the pagan gods. At least 5 bible stories are translations of Sumerian stories that are tied to natural events, but when the translation is made, it is made by new people reading even documents of a civilization that no longer exist, and the stories come out completed separated from nature. This means, not only is this God not a God of nature, but human beings are also completed separated from nature! They are created by an unearthly God in his image. Come to think of it, this could be a little scary. It also has dire consequences for our poor planet.

 

Democracy comes out Greek and Roman classics, philosophy. Only when education transmit this is democracy defended. When education fails to transmit this information it fails to transmit the meanings of all the thoughts and concepts vital to the culture. Here is where Christianity has been a devastating blow to democracy, because it has everyone convinced civilization and democracy are because of Christians. Excuse me, civilizations existed how many thousands of years before Christianity? Not only did the exist and thrive, but Athens had us the path to science, and Christianity took us off that path.

 

German philosophy is separated from the gods of nature, because it was Christianized. All of philosophy is a result of this. I don't care if they believed in God or not. Their understanding of God, AND HUMAN NATURE, is a Christian one. So is their understanding of war.

 

Democratic people do not engage war unless they are attacked. However, religious people can be convinced God wants them to kill in the name of God. Just because people think they are democratic and have some power to vote, that does not make them democratic. God knows the US is full of autocratic people, and that many of its churches, its industry and military are autocratic, and because they are not aware of this, they do not recognize how autocratic their government has become. The Christian Republic of Germany was hijacked and turned into a war machine, exactly as the US democracy was hijacked and turned into a war machine.

 

 

Whoo, I need to take 2 asprin and go to bed after working my way through that explanation. Greek gods are the forces of nature. The God of Abraham is not. Now which would you say is the most superstitious? You know, superstitious, a belief in supernatural forces? You know, David's god of war that is no different from the other god's of war, but some how got to be the 'one and only God", even for atheist who insist the Christian God is the only explanation of god we can use when discussing god. The god of German philosophy. And we think civilizations based on this war God, define human nature. We don't have a clue that maybe what we think is human nature, is just a human reaction to a belief system. Bush jr. didn't become Christian until he decided to run for the presidency of the US, and then he couldn't stop talking about the New World Order, and he took us into a war built in lies. Elected and reelected by a Christian right, running the war machine that was transplanted from Germany to the US.

[Athena]

Mooeypoo:

 

Not everything German is Nazi. Even I know that, and we have quite a bias "against" Germany in Israel.

 

In fact, Germany has quite a lot of extremely useful social structures and we absolutely have been using them all over the world. "Bureacracy" is a german concept; and whether or not we like the extremefication of it (which is what the dismissal of the word usually mean in day to day language) the main concepts are sound. There are a lot of German philosophers that are smart and influencial ad should absolutely be studied.

 

To say that if we adopt German institutions and bureacracy of government (which existed MUCH before WWII all over the world) will make us like Nazi Germany is beyond leap of logic, it's ridiculous.

 

If that's what you're claiming, then this is where I state your logic fails.

 

Let's see if I understand you correctly. You are saying governments all over the world found the German model of bureaucracy useful, and I am ridiculous for saying the US adopted the German model of bureaucracy? I don't follow your logic?

 

Perhaps you meant to agree about the US adopting the German model of bureaucracy, and question if there is a problem with that?

 

Padren:

To tie this into Germany and the US - I don't know if this was the state of affairs when Hitler gave up on art school, but Germany was definitely in its own former shadow with many seemingly intractable political problems at that time. The danger in this scenario is eventually citizens get tired of suffering under the partisan-induced stagnancy, and begin to see the straight forward granting of extended executive power as the only means to break the impasse - especially when played on by a trusted charismatic leader who originally only promises to restore the proper state of affairs but gains great aspirations as power becomes consolidated.

 

The US is not there yet. We are still thankfully far too partisan to trust any one leader, but I am willing to bet that many Obama supporters and many Romney supporters have very little faith in either candidate overcoming our current partisan gridlock and would consider "some" additional executive power as the only way anything will get done. Many liberals (myself included at times) often fault Obama for not using executive orders to break impasses more often.

 

It's less that German philosophies have impacted our culture for the worse, but more than we're suffering the common pitfalls of success and stagnation which holds many historical parallels, all of which are worth avoiding if at all possible.

 

I want to focus on "citizens get tired of suffering under the partisan-induced stagnancy" because, my gosh do we have that now, in the US! Saroleo wrote of German politics being reactionary. Later Brickner writes of Germany being paranoid, and he defines paranoia as an excessive need to be superior and in control. Might I say, the German model of bureaucracy and education has its benefits, but there are also draw backs. I think an excessive need to be superior and in control is a drawback. When the will to be superior and in control is divided, isn't it logical partisan-induced stagnancy would follow? This is not democracy. However, because we haven't had education for democracy, I don't expect agreement. I am just hoping to plant seeds of thought.

 

I want to like Obama but oh my goodness, he is using executive power a lot. This comes years after Aruthur M. Schlesinger, Jr. wrote "The Imperial Presidency" 1973. "The American Presidency is in crisis. People are concerned today as rarely before about the expansion and abuse of presidential power." This is about 40 years after the warnings government changes made during the Roosevelt administration, that gave our government powers it never had before. This goes with Mario Pei's 1969 book "The America We Lost", "A famous scholar's eloquent and heartfelt pleas to restore our country's vanishing greatness", with an introduction written by William F. Buckley, Jr.. Plus the books written during and following the WWII about the potentially dangerous relationship growing between industry and government. You know, as in Military Industrial Complex, or what Hitler and Bush called the New World Order. This is the mechanical society we defended our democracy against.

 

Our forefathers gave us rules to live by. They wrote laws, not policies that manage the minutest details of our lives, as Tocqueville feared would happen when he wrote "Democracy in America" in 1830. It took the German model of bureaucracy to manifest what Tocqueville feared. Now be a good citizen, and don't trouble yourself with what is being said. These things are too complex for the average citizens who have enough to vote on what they given to vote about. Seriously, the reasoning of the US today, is the total opposite of what it once was.

 

Comparing the US to Rome is helpful. Civilizations raise and fall, and democracy is supposed to prevent this, but has not. I think we need better information about the rise and fall of civilizations. I am not prepared to discuss that. I do better with explaining democracy as an ideology and away of life organized by principles that we have forgotten.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Athena