does morality depend on religion/objective vs subjective morality

[dragonstar57]

ok I have been seeing this pop up everywhere on the religion section so I wanted to make a thread specifically for it.

In my opinion morality being from god doesn't make sense because people disagree a lot about what is right and wrong: ergo morality is not innate.

and many different religions (of which only one may be "true" as the majority claim all others are false) which all arrive at similar morals.

I am now going to link some YouTube videos all of which make arguments against Christianity being the basis for law in the us (although also applies to other nations as well) I think that a YouTube video is as valid as anything any of us could say on here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lg6Q_xRII0

 

 

ps. I would like to see this made a sticky topic that could be linked to whenever conversations in other topics turn to this topic.

 

Edited August 4, 2012 by dragonstar57

[randomc]

"morality", "objective", "subjective" - words so steeped in connotation that we're just guessing what we each mean when we use them.

 

Anyway, for me, specific moral rules are simply a product of our capacity to reason. Moral behaviour is to some extent innate, in the sense that we are by our nature not capable of entirely not giving a fuck about each other.

 

I don't know that law in America or elsewhere in the "west" depends on revealed knowledge. Why do you think it does?

[dragonstar57]

"morality", "objective", "subjective" - words so steeped in connotation that we're just guessing what we each mean when we use them.

 

Anyway, for me, specific moral rules are simply a product of our capacity to reason. Moral behaviour is to some extent innate, in the sense that we are by our nature not capable of entirely not giving a fuck about each other.

 

I don't know that law in America or elsewhere in the "west" depends on revealed knowledge. Why do you think it does?

I am not claiming that it does (I would claim that it does not)

my contention is that christian/theistic values are not at the core of morality (or law) and that morality is completely subjective.

aka the atheistic view

Edited August 4, 2012 by dragonstar57

[Elshamah]

ok I have been seeing this pop up everywhere on the religion section so I wanted to make a thread specifically for it.

In my opinion morality being from god doesn't make sense because people disagree a lot about what is right and wrong: ergo morality is not innate.

 

Wrong. There is a commom knowledge, that all humans have, even aboriginies, indians etc. that kill, steal, cheat, betray etc. is wrong, and love, help, altruism etc. is good.

 

 

 

Indeed, if God does not exist, than there is no basis for objective morality, and so being, nobody can say, Hitler was wrong, for example to exterminate the jews. Without a moral giver, morals become subjective, and are just based on different opinions. Therefore, no good, and bad really exists.

Edited August 4, 2012 by Elshamah

[randomc]

I am not claiming that it does (I would claim that it does not)

my contention is that christian/theistic values are not at the core of morality (or law) and that morality is completely subjective.

aka the atheistic view

Aha, you're arguing against the notion that law/morality in the US is based on christianity, which presumably some people claim is the case. Excuse me. I emphasised the law bit while you meant to emphasise the morality aspect.

Edited August 4, 2012 by randomc

[dragonstar57]

Wrong. There is a common knowledge, that all humans have, even aborigines, Indians etc. that kill, steal, cheat, betray etc. is wrong, and love, help, altruism etc. is good.

 

 

 

Indeed, if God does not exist, than there is no basis for objective morality, and so being, nobody can say, Hitler was wrong, for example to exterminate the jews. Without a moral giver, morals become subjective, and are just based on different opinions. Therefore, no good, and bad really exists.

wrong you have the Sam Harris model.

are you are attempting to argue that god is the basis for an objective morality?? because I really don't want to commit an accidental straw man.

even with a "moral givver" the only objective quality is that those were what that "moral givver" valued and therefore subjective

Edited August 5, 2012 by dragonstar57

[Moontanman]

Agree on objective morality if we are to discuss it? Subjective morality us superior to Objective morality, these videos explain it very well...

 

 

 

 

[TheVillageAtheist]

Wrong. There is a commom knowledge, that all humans have, even aboriginies, indians etc. that kill, steal, cheat, betray etc. is wrong, and love, help, altruism etc. is good.

 

Um, no. First and foremost, not everyone agrees that killing, cheating, and stealing is wrong, and not everyone believes that altruism is good. Many people think charity is counter-productive, for example. So your assertion is incorrect right from the start. But what I'm curious about is why "even aboriginies, indians etc." are treated as something other than people in your post? What do you mean "even" they have morality?

 

Indeed, if God does not exist, than there is no basis for objective morality, and so being, nobody can say, Hitler was wrong, for example to exterminate the jews. Without a moral giver, morals become subjective, and are just based on different opinions. Therefore, no good, and bad really exists.

 

This is incorrect. I can say with confidence that Adolph Hitler was wrong, and I can give you an reasonable, rational explanation for why. Just because there is no cosmic "correctness" to behavior, it does not mean that all opinions are therefore correct.

[Elshamah]

This is incorrect. I can say with confidence that Adolph Hitler was wrong, and I can give you an reasonable, rational explanation for why.

 

that will be nothing more than your personal opinion. If Hitler thought, he was right, what makes your opinion be more worth or valid than his ?

 

 

 

[Moontanman]

that will be nothing more than your personal opinion. If Hitler thought, he was right, what makes your opinion be more worth or valid than his ?

 

 

The first video I posted in post #7 explains that quite nicely, of course we could go with your objective morality and kill anyone who disagrees with your bible...

[Elshamah]

The first video I posted in post #7 explains that quite nicely, of course we could go with your objective morality and kill anyone who disagrees with your bible...

 

Jesus asks us to love,not to kill each other.

 

 

 

[dragonstar57]

Jesus asks us to love,not to kill each other.

he also asks you to kill anyone who works on Sunday

[Moontanman]

Jesus asks us to love,not to kill each other.

 

 

Jesus did not negate the laws of the old testament, I tire of having to tell wide eyed believers what their own holy book says, I also tire of pointing out their holy book is morally corrupt on a scale that is difficult to comprehend if you truly are a moral person, I also tire of pointing out their's is not the only god, goddess, or gods with a holy book and has exactly the same evidence as any other holy book. I tire of pointing out they are worshiping a book written about myths about god instead of god.

 

I tire of morally bankrupt, self righteous, people who think they have to right to judge the moral character of others based on this crock of horse feathers they call religion...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75UeVLbkXeg

 

I have no problem with people believing in a god or gods or a goddess, as long as they understand it's a belief and cannot be used to dictate reality I have no problem it it, in fact i will defend your right to your beliefs. You have every right to believe in your god, you have no right to assert it as reality...

[Elshamah]

he also asks you to kill anyone who works on Sunday

 

 

really ? where ?

 

 

 

 

Jesus did not negate the laws of the old testament, I tire of having to tell wide eyed believers what their own holy book says, I also tire of pointing out their holy book is morally corrupt on a scale that is difficult to comprehend if you truly are a moral person, I also tire of pointing out their's is not the only god, goddess, or gods with a holy book and has exactly the same evidence as any other holy book. I tire of pointing out they are worshiping a book written about myths about god instead of god.

 

I tire of morally bankrupt, self righteous, people who think they have to right to judge the moral character of others based on this crock of horse feathers they call religion...

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=75UeVLbkXeg

 

I have no problem with people believing in a god or gods or a goddess, as long as they understand it's a belief and cannot be used to dictate reality I have no problem it it, in fact i will defend your right to your beliefs. You have every right to believe in your god, you have no right to assert it as reality...

 

Could you point out based on what moral standard you can say , the God of the bible is morally bankrupt ?

 

 

 

[Moontanman]

really ? where ?

Could you point out based on what moral standard you can say , the God of the bible is morally bankrupt ?

 

 

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

 

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

 

Kill Homosexuals

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

 

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

 

Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

 

Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

 

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

 

Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

 

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

 

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

 

Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

 

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

 

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

 

Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

 

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

 

Death for Blasphemy

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

 

Kill False Prophets

1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

 

2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

 

Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

 

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

 

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

 

 

2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons:

 

Kill Brats

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

 

God Kills the Curious

And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)

 

Killed by a Lion

Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)

 

Killing the Good Samaritan

The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.

When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)

 

 

3) Murdering Children

 

Kill Sons of Sinners

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

 

God Will Kill Children

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

 

Kill Men, Women, and Children

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

 

God Kills all the First Born of Egypt

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

 

Kill Old Men and Young Women

"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)

 

God Will Kill the Children of Sinners

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

 

More Rape and Baby Killing

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

 

 

just a few tiny things that show that if god is real then he is a immoral monster...

[iNow]

And just to preempt the almost certain reply of, 'But that's the old testament. Jesus said something different, and that's what we believe..."

 

See this: http://freethought.mbdojo.com/butthatstheoldtest.html

 

 

The old testament only gets thrown out when the theist is backed into a corner or shown a logical contradiction. Suddenly it's perfectly valid again when we start talking about gay marriage, though. At least they're consistent in their inconsistency.

[Elshamah]

just a few tiny things that show that if god is real then he is a immoral monster...

 

It seems you do not understand my question. Here again : Based on what moral standard can you say God is a moral monster ? how do you possibly know these commands were morally rejectible ?

[John Cuthber]

It seems you do not understand my question. Here again : Based on what moral standard can you say God is a moral monster ? how do you possibly know these commands were morally rejectible ?

Did you not watch the videos in post #7, or is it just that you didn't understand them?

 

They make it clear that objective morality exists and that God;'s reported behaviour is immoral.

[Elshamah]

Did you not watch the videos in post #7, or is it just that you didn't understand them?

 

They make it clear that objective morality exists and that God;'s reported behaviour is immoral.

 

 

Even if, lets say, the argument would stand, how exactly would that prove God does not exist ?

 

Is God a moral monster ?

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/blog/2011/10/is-god-a-moral-monster/

 

 

 

[Moontanman]

Even if, lets say, the argument would stand, how exactly would that prove God does not exist ?

 

Is God a moral monster ?

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/blog/2011/10/is-god-a-moral-monster/

 

 

This is the most dishonest dissembling apologetic crap i think i have ever heard of, so the descriptions of warfare was just hyperbole but the commands to kill every man woman and child even the animals or the commands to keep all the little girls for their own use is just hyperbole? Kill homosexuals is just hyperbole? Sad that someone would want to worship such a being much less call him god...

[dragonstar57]

It seems you do not understand my question. Here again : Based on what moral standard can you say God is a moral monster ? how do you possibly know these commands were morally rejectible ?

Are you attempting to claim these things are moral?

Would you claim that if a human did these things that they would be objectively immoral?

I think that you would.

If we use the standard from post 7 than we could show things to be immoral. (like all that stuff post 15 from makes him immoral)

Edited August 8, 2012 by dragonstar57

[Elshamah]

Are you attempting to claim these things are moral?

Would you claim that if a human did these things that they would be objectively immoral?

I think that you would.

 

If God does not exist, than objective moral standards do not exist. Therefore , you cannot define what is moral, what is not.

 

 

 

 

This is the most dishonest dissembling apologetic crap i think i have ever heard of

 

Well , you think you have something on hand to justify your disbelief in God. However , you have not. I bet you have not studied the bible, otherwise you would not come to the conclusion you expose here.

 

 

 

[Moontanman]

If God does not exist, than objective moral standards do not exist. Therefore , you cannot define what is moral, what is not.

 

Yes I can, I have done so, just because you cannot keep from raping and pillaging the world with out the threat of eternal damnation doesn't mean everyone else shares your character flaw... I respect the life of other human beings, I respect their need for life, it's called empathy, I do not have to have a god to tell me if harming someone else is wrong...

 

 

Well , you think you have something on hand to justify your disbelief in God. However , you have not. I bet you have not studied the bible, otherwise you would not come to the conclusion you expose here.

 

So... it finally comes out, if I had only studied the bible I would agree with you... I have no disbelief in god, I have no belief in a god or gods, I see no evidence of such a being or beings, in the absence of evidence the default position is there are no gods...

[dragonstar57]

If God does not exist, than objective moral standards do not exist. Therefore , you cannot define what is moral, what is not.

You have been presented with an objective moral standard that does not need god.

Well , you think you have something on hand to justify your disbelief in God. However , you have not. I bet you have not studied the bible, otherwise you would not come to the conclusion you expose here.

couldn't this "objective moral standard" come from a different god. perhaps a deistic god?

Your god does things which we all can agree are wrong even if that moral consensus is subjective.

Why do we need an objective moral standard to judge god (or anything else)with?

Why do you insist that all morals come from god?

Edited August 8, 2012 by dragonstar57

[Moontanman]

Well , you think you have something on hand to justify your disbelief in God. However , you have not. I bet you have not studied the bible, otherwise you would not come to the conclusion you expose here.

 

 

How much would you like to bet? To be completely honest actually reading and studying the bible is what makes me sure your god does not exist... Before I actually studied it I was quite sure a god or gods existed, most probably your god in fact, but reading it and actually trying to understand it instead of listening to what everyone else claimed it said and meant convinced me that your god is nothing but mythology, much like Zeus, Mars, Jupiter, Thor, Odin, and every other deity tossed onto the trash bin of human belief your god is no better than any of the others and deserves no better than any of the others....