Was Hitler intrinsically evil or psychotic?

[Alan McDougall]

Adolf Hitler is often referred to as a madman, in part because most people are loath to accept such enormity of evil as anything other than the by product of psychosis. Yet just how ''mad'' Hitler was, and how much of the evil he perpetrated can be attributed to illness, either physical or mental.?

 

Did Hitler, know what he was doing was wrong but nevetheless, chose to do it with pride and enthusiasm?

 

What do you think? He was an abused child by a brutal drunkard of a father, but countless people with abusing fathers do not grow up to do unspeakable evil, but a few do?

 

Or was he like I suppose just intrinsically evil?

 

 

[Moontanman]

I to have often wondered how he came to power and how he convinced so many to follow such a dark course. To be honest i think some of it was simply the perfect storm type scenario. A cult of personality built around someone who was severely flawed who was able to attract a great many others who were similarly flawed.

 

From my perspective it's difficult to imagine anyone thinking such things but we have leaders today that advocate horrific things but they don't seem to attract the numbers of people today that such people attracted back then. We don't quite jump to the beat of authority like many people did then and fewer of us are willing to allow others to tell us what to think and do, not that such people don't exist now they just don't seem to as many of them nor is blind obedience thought to be as virtuous as it was then either...

 

Personally I think the movement toward reason and rational thought have greatly crippled the people who would do such things.

[CaptainPanic]

Were the Romans all evil for keeping slaves or having gladiator fights? Or for butchering a million Gauls when they invaded modern-day France?

 

I don't think Hitler was mad at all. However, his ideology was so shockingly different from ours that it was worth fighting the biggest war ever.

[CharonY]

Unfortunately, I do not think that his way of thinking was so much different from his contemporaries. Appealing to the masses was one of the reasons he got to power after all.

As Moontanman said, in many ways there were many issues that facilitated what has happened.

The desire for expansion and the glory of colonialism has been diminished but still existed at that point.People still believing that a strong country needs to expand to ascertain superiority (and have enough space for its people, the infamous "Lebensraum"). There was a strong fear of communism, which is why Hitler eventually also got support from the conservatives. National pride was an issue (after WWI) and strong authoritarian figures were highly popular. Antisemitism was rampant and a rather popular platform. There is quite a dispute in defining how special Hitler really was or whether he really just was a populist that grew into his role, if you will.

I would argue it is less about a specific person, but more about someone having near unlimited power.

Edited August 10, 2012 by CharonY

[John Cuthber]

Why is this posed as an either/ or question?

Is it not possible that he was both evil (whatever that means) and psychotic?

[somecallmegenius]

I to have often wondered how he came to power and how he convinced so many to follow such a dark course. To be honest i think some of it was simply the perfect storm type scenario. A cult of personality built around someone who was severely flawed who was able to attract a great many others who were similarly flawed.

 

From my perspective it's difficult to imagine anyone thinking such things but we have leaders today that advocate horrific things but they don't seem to attract the numbers of people today that such people attracted back then. We don't quite jump to the beat of authority like many people did then and fewer of us are willing to allow others to tell us what to think and do, not that such people don't exist now they just don't seem to as many of them nor is blind obedience thought to be as virtuous as it was then either...

 

Personally I think the movement toward reason and rational thought have greatly crippled the people who would do such things.

 

 

Your point about jumping to the beat of authority seems valid within the context of our western world and modern democratic countries. However, it is unfortunate that in some countries, third-world or otherwise, significant numbers still jump to the beat of authority. Such individuals are willing to hold ,and act upon, beliefs that would be repulsive to any informed individual from a modern society. Many Middle-Eastern and African nations still struggle with large cults of personality and terrorist organizations: Hizbullah (which is actually kind of a cult of personality), the LRA...

 

Actually, throughout history, many such large groups that are/were considered ruthless or evil actually grew around one person or a few personalities who had warped beliefs that were disseminated to the masses coated with some attractive slogans which guaranteed they would catch on with a "sufficient" number of people, or what I'd like to call a "human critical mass".

Edited August 11, 2012 by somecallmegenius

[Anders Hoveland]

Was Hitler intrinsically evil or psychotic?

I don't think he was a particularly unusual individual in any way.

 

If we want to see his type of thinking still in action today, we have only to look at the pro-abortion lobby.*

 

 

He might not actually have been the monster that he is typically made out to be in the media.

 

 

 

 

 

did you know Hitler was a vegetarian?

Edited August 11, 2012 by Anders Hoveland

[iNow]

He might not actually have been the monster that he is typically made out to be in the media.

<...>

did you know Hitler was a vegetarian?

I agree. Since we have a tiny handful of pictures of him sitting beside children, his systematic killing of over 6 million people just due to their religious preference and his desire to create a "pure" race should be totally forgiven.

 

The stupid shit people say online, sometimes, I swear.

[Anders Hoveland]

Here are the contents of a trash bag found in a dumster right outside an abortion clinic from the 1960's:

 

 

 

Does it remind you of anything else?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the United States alone there have been over 52 million unborn babies terminated since Roe versus Wade!

 

Perhaps the quickest and easiest way to justify murder is to establish the "non-humanity" of the intended victim.

 

 

 

 

 

No, as you can clearly see, Hitler's disregard for certain forms of human life was by no means unique.

 

I to have often wondered how he came to power and how he convinced so many to follow such a dark course.

I hope this post helps to answer your question

Edited August 11, 2012 by Anders Hoveland

[iNow]

It's very sad those circumstances those pregnant women must have faced, and also very sad that you see their choices as equivalent to the acts of Hitler.

 

Note: I'm also highly suspicious that your top and also your bottom left images are authentically the result of individual abortions.

[Phi for All]

If we want to see his type of thinking still in action today, we have only to look at the pro-abortion lobby.*

The neo-conservative movement seems like a more appropriate choice. So many Iraqis in so little time.

 

did you know Hitler was a vegetarian?

A very telling non sequitur.

[John Cuthber]

 

did you know Hitler was a vegetarian?

It's rather far from clear that he was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_vegetarianism

However it's hard to see why it would matter anyway.

[Moontanman]

timMAY! timMAY! timMAY! Hitler timMAY! timMAY! vegetarian timMAY! timMAY! timMAY! timMAY! kind to small animals timMAY! timMAY! Hitler timMAY! Proabortion movement timMAY! timMAY! Hitler 6 million timMAY! proabortion 52 million timMAY! timMAY! timMAY! abstinence only timMAY! no birth control timMAY! timMAY! planed parenthood = 52 million dead timMAY! timMAY! timMAY! psychopath fight psychopath fight timMAY! Anders Hovland timmay!?

 

See South Park for interpretation...

[Anders Hoveland]

I think nazi's mistreatment of the jews has to be understood within the context of poverty and war escalating into attrocities.

It was not as if everything was wonderful and then, out of nowhere, everyone suddenly decided to exterminate the jews.

No, people were dying on a large scale, first through poverty, then through war, before the nazis decided to round up the jews. Hitler originally intended to ship the jews out somewhere else (like to Madagascar) at the start of the war.

 

The American occupation forces did not treat the germans any better than the nazis treated the jews.

 

One former American soldier, Martin Brech, now a Unitarian-Universalist minister, described what he witnessed during the American occupation of Germany:

I encountered a captain on a hill above the Rhine shooting down at a group of German civilian women with his .45 caliber pistol. When I asked,"Why?" he mumbled, "Target practice," and fired until his pistol was empty. I saw the women running for cover, but, at that distance, couldn't tell if any had been hit. They considered the Germans subhuman and worthy of extermination.

 

 

The Allied prison camps of Sinzig and Remagen, which stretched along the Rhine, would have made Auschwitz and Buchenwald seem like vacation resorts in comparison.

 

Few Americans are aware that such infamous camps as Dachau, Buchenwald, Sachsenhausen and Auschwitz stayed in business after the end of the war, only now packed with German captives, many of whom perished miserably.

"After the Reich: The Brutal History of Allied Occupation", Giles MacDonogh

Edited August 11, 2012 by Anders Hoveland

[John Cuthber]

It must be difficult to live your life without being able to understand the difference between one shameful act by one soldier and the wholesale deliberate slaughter of six million people.

[Moontanman]

Here are the contents of a trash bag found in a dumster right outside an abortion clinic from the 1960's:

 

Abortion clinics in the 1960's? Roe VS Wade wasn't passed until 1973, before then any abortion would have been highly illegal, i question the veracity of your image.

 

Does it remind you of anything else?

 

Yes it does, it reminds me of the Religious rights assertion that homosexuals be confined to concentration camps, let's see when was that... oh yes 2012...

 

In the United States alone there have been over 52 million unborn babies terminated since Roe versus Wade!

 

According to who? The same lying bastards who call Planned parenthood a pro abortion movement? The same people who are opposed to any birth control other than abstinence? The same people who would round up anyone they don't like and "concentrate them"?

 

Perhaps the quickest and easiest way to justify murder is to establish the "non-humanity" of the intended victim.

 

True, all you need is a bible and hatred...

 

No, as you can clearly see, Hitler's disregard for certain forms of human life was by no means unique.

 

No it is not, The religious right seems to share this attitude as well, and dishonest tactics and propaganda are something else they have in common...

 

I hope this post helps to answer your question

 

It answers many questions about you...

 

about you...

[Athena]

Adolf Hitler is often referred to as a madman, in part because most people are loath to accept such enormity of evil as anything other than the by product of psychosis. Yet just how ''mad'' Hitler was, and how much of the evil he perpetrated can be attributed to illness, either physical or mental.?

 

Did Hitler, know what he was doing was wrong but nevetheless, chose to do it with pride and enthusiasm?

 

What do you think? He was an abused child by a brutal drunkard of a father, but countless people with abusing fathers do not grow up to do unspeakable evil, but a few do?

 

Or was he like I suppose just intrinsically evil?

 

 

 

Hitler was no more a mad than any of the US presidents. Being a leader of a nation is being bigger than life, and I don't think anyone is prepared for that. The pressures on these people lead them to do good things and not so good things. I see Hitler more as an actor like Reagan, than a bad guy. They do a great job of acting, and it is the people who lead them. That is they do what they believe will make them most popular.

 

Cheney, Bush and neo cons, planned the New Century American Project, long before 9/11. This is the political/economic/military domination of the mid east, and a continuation of what Eisenhower and Reagan were doing. They lead the US to bomb Iraq, a country that had not declared on us and did not mobilized its military to attack the US. They invade Iraq, and try to do it on the cheap, leading to death of many our young men and women. They were wrong to assume our "Power and Glory" the "Shock and Awe" would lead to immediate surrender. They use the Christian right to support this war and re-elect Bush. Oh, and like Hitler, they don't tax for this war! This is less wrong than what Hitler did why?

 

 

By the way the NAZI movement is still with us today. Not everyone believes it is wrong.

 

About abortion in 1960 this link provides information. It was not illegal in all states. http://fundabortionn...about/our-story

 

It must be difficult to live your life without being able to understand the difference between one shameful act by one soldier and the wholesale deliberate slaughter of six million people.

 

You sound a bit naive thinking war effected only one person badly. How could you listen to the reports from war zones and not know war distorts people's thinking. This is not only true of those in war zones, but all those involved. Treating people as subhumans isn't even unique to war zones. The South treated black people as subhumans, and is still having trouble accepting them as equals. Our prison system, in peace time brings out the worst in people. A college study using students who were only role playing prisoners and guards has to cut short, because the students personalities were getting so distorted. Perhaps we need to be a whole more honest about war and human nature?

 

Oh it is your arguments I am reading moontanman. You are hitting pretty hard, and those punches need to be thrown. I very appreciate the Christian connection to the intolerable behavior. It is good to be on the same side of the fence this time.

 

I to have often wondered how he came to power and how he convinced so many to follow such a dark course. To be honest i think some of it was simply the perfect storm type scenario. A cult of personality built around someone who was severely flawed who was able to attract a great many others who were similarly flawed.

 

From my perspective it's difficult to imagine anyone thinking such things but we have leaders today that advocate horrific things but they don't seem to attract the numbers of people today that such people attracted back then. We don't quite jump to the beat of authority like many people did then and fewer of us are willing to allow others to tell us what to think and do, not that such people don't exist now they just don't seem to as many of them nor is blind obedience thought to be as virtuous as it was then either...

 

Personally I think the movement toward reason and rational thought have greatly crippled the people who would do such things.

 

The machine can not be stopped once it is in motion. Mooeypoo argued that the German model of bureaucracy has been adopted around the world. We still have not discussed why the US defended its democracy against it in two world wars, and we ignore Eisenhower's warning, and Bush who loved the New World Order was popular until the economy went belly up. I think you are more optimistic than I am about our future.

 

I really have a point to make, and want to point out Hitler was admired around the world. Hitler also admired many things started in the US, such as eugenics and what could be called the concentration filled with native Americans.

1. 
   Morality
   www.skeptic.ca/American_Genocide.htmHitler admired the concentration camps for American Indians and according to his biographer John Toland, “often praised to his inner circle the efficiency of ...
2. 
   The Adolf Hitler Admiration Society: It's Springtime for Hitler Again ...
   www.writeonnewjersey.com/.../the-adolf-hitler-admiration-society-its...Mar 11, 2011 – Oddly enough, Hitler also admired America and certain things American. In 1934, he sent congratulations to President Roosevelt for the ...

There are pretty girls in the u tube video "It's Springtime for Hitler"

Edited August 12, 2012 by Athena

[John Cuthber]

 

You sound a bit naive thinking war effected only one person badly.

 

 

That's an absurd response to a post where I mentioned that it killed six million Jews in concentration camps. (Of course, it also affected a whole lot more people elsewhere).

Were you expecting to be taken seriously?

 

 

(BTW, the word you should have used is "affected" but that's not really the point)

[Alan McDougall]

Why is this posed as an either/ or question?

Is it not possible that he was both evil (whatever that means) and psychotic?

 

 

Of course he could have been both psychotic (mad) and evil, most evil people have thse qualities.

 

Here are the contents of a trash bag found in a dumster right outside an abortion clinic from the 1960's:

 

 

 

Does it remind you of anything else?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the United States alone there have been over 52 million unborn babies terminated since Roe versus Wade!

 

Perhaps the quickest and easiest way to justify murder is to establish the "non-humanity" of the intended victim.

 

 

 

 

 

No, as you can clearly see, Hitler's disregard for certain forms of human life was by no means unique.

 

 

I hope this post helps to answer your question

 

 

Like you I dispise abortion but one type of evil does not excuse another, Hitler actions were also against adults and children who knew about the awful fate awaiting them in the death camps.

 

You said.

 

Anders Hoveland

 

The Allied prison camps of Sinzig and Remagen, which

stretched along the Rhine, would have made Auschwitz and Buchenwald seem like

vacation resorts in comparison.

 

This statement is nonsense?

[Arete]

Abortion rates do not decline when abortion is outlawed. However, more abortions are conducted under unsafe conditions, resulting in even more fatalities:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8305217.stm

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2806%2969481-6/fulltext

 

In fact, progressive, pro-choice policies including access to contraceptives is the most effective method of reducing the abortion rate:

https://guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/10/4/gpr100402.html

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3583211?uid=2&uid=4&sid=21101129705121

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1363/4000608/abstract;jsessionid=7B3C668B510E0F7D60AF7A2BF3EA85BF.d01t03?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

 

 

This makes the comparison between the "pro-abortion lobby" and the holocaust a false comparison.

Babies die via abortion whether or not it is restricted, and pro-choice policies show more evidence of lowering the abortion rate than banning it.

Jews did not march themselves into gas chambers in absence of Nazi policies.

 

Shall we get back on topic?

[ewmon]

I to have often wondered how he came to power and how he convinced so many to follow such a dark course. To be honest i think some of it was simply the perfect storm type scenario. A cult of personality built around someone who was severely flawed who was able to attract a great many others who were similarly flawed.

Unfortunately, I do not think that his way of thinking was so much different from his contemporaries. Appealing to the masses was one of the reasons he got to power after all.

Yes. I am reminded of a paper written by a Scandinavian on Genghis Khan who said that he was merely a product of his time, and that if not him, then someone else, but that the course of history would have happened nonetheless. I think Hitler was the one who happened to rise to the top of this "cult", and that he did not convince anyone to do anything they didn't want to do. Granted, the ones who flocked to him were most like him, and there were others who obviously opposed him and stayed away. It always amazed me how an ugly, little, dark-haired and dark-eyed runt convince a nation to take pride in tall, handsome, athletic, blond, blue-eyed Aryans. However, he wasn't convincing them of himself, but of an ideal already somewhere in their minds.

 

I think everyone agrees that the conditions forced onto Germany at the end of World War One set the stage for the unforeseeable economic disaster that it suffered during the Great Depression, but it also set the stage for the accompanying national humiliation and debasement — the natural reaction to which fostered the rise of Nazism.

 

I think that between leaders and members of any organization, there's this conscious (or sometimes unconscious) communication where the leader suggests something, the members confirm it, and the leader goes ahead and "orders it". I mean, how else does a leadership get members to drink the Kool-Aid, or to castrate and poison themselves in order to rendezvous with an alien spaceship behind a comet? I occasionally find this among Christian who marvel at how their thoughts and actions are supernaturally synchronized, and I realize they simply don't know human organizational behavior. Or maybe this is one form of the "supernatural" — "good" if a bunch of people join up to feed the homeless, or "evil" if a bunch of people join up to gas millions of innocents.

 

It must be difficult to live your life without being able to understand the difference between one shameful act by one soldier and the wholesale deliberate slaughter of six million people.

Exactly. I also think that entire nations can change over time, and so I don't think of what the "Germans" did, but of what the "Nazis" did, same with the "Imperialists" compared to the "Japanese".

[Athena]

 

The following comes from the link in my previous post. I bring it to attention because Ewmon writes of the conditions that make the men of history, and I totally agree with this point of view. When I was reading a 1933 book about Eugenics, written by an American doctor, I was thinking it read exactly like something from NAZI Germany. The thinking had begun in the US and Hitler's concentration also came from the US. In the US these concentration camps were native American reservations. And then we come to what Bush had to say of our history. You know Bush, the man who bragged about the New World Order.? Eventually I hope to get to discussions about the unrealistic expectations of technology, and the possible need to make many adjustments. We have not eliminated those who burden society as Herman H. Rubin, M.D. had expected we would when he wrote Eugenics and Sex Harmony.

 

 

What is Genocide?

 

I fought through the Civil War and have seen men shot to pieces and slaughtered in the thousands, but the Cherokee removal was the cruelest work I ever knew – Georgia volunteer, c. 1870

 

The expression "genocide" did not exist before 1944. It's a very specific term, referring to violent crimes committed against groups with the intent to destroy the existence of the group. Human rights, as laid out in the U.S. Bill of Rights or the 1948 United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, concern the rights of individuals.

 

In 1944, a Polish-Jewish lawyer named Raphael Lemkin (1900-1959) sought to describe Nazi policies of systematic murder, including the destruction of the European Jews. He formed the word "genocide" by combining geno-, from the Greek word for race or tribe, with -cide, from the Latin word for killing. In proposing this new term, Lemkin had in mind "a coordinated plan of various actions aimed at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves." The next year, the International Military Tribunal held at Nuremberg, Germany, charged top Nazis with "crimes against humanity." The word "genocide" was included in the indictment, but as a descriptive, not legal, term.

 

American Genocide

 

History begins for us with murder and enslavement, not discovery – William Carlos Williams

 

Empires and churches are born under the sun of death – Albert Camus

 

I never apologize for the United States of America; I don't care what the facts are – George Bush I (like father, like son) , 1988

 

 

[Athena]

Henry Ford holds some responsibility for the what NAZI did to Jews.

 

http://history.hanov...99/hhr99_2.html

 

 

This paper traces the anti-Semitic activities of automobile manufacturer Henry Ford. Ford first voiced his anti-Semitic leanings in 1915, around the time of his �Peace Ship� episode. Eventually, his belief that the �International Jew� was the source of the world�s problems led him to conduct a campaign against them in the pages of his newspaper; The Dearborn Independent. The articles in Ford�s newspaper blamed the Jews for everything from the Bolshevik Revolution and the First World War to bootlegged liquor and cheap movies. They also accused the Jews of conspiring to enslave Christianity and destroy the �Anglo-Saxon� way of life. The articles were later gathered into book form and published under the title: The International Jew: The World�s Foremost Problem. This book was translated into 16 languages, and was to have a profound influence upon the growing Nazi movement in Germany. Eventually, Ford publicly apologized for the articles in light of a legal suit. However; he continued to express his anti-Semitic beliefs in his private circles. In the 1930�s, he hired many fascist sympathizers, accepted an award from Hitler; and engaged in business ventures in Nazi Germany. In the 1940�s, the Ford Motor Company was transformed into a more tolerant organization through the efforts of Ford�s son and grandson. However; Ford himself never abandoned his deep-rooted anti-Semitism. His anti-Semitic literature can still be found in great abundance, more than fifty years after his death. While Ford is considered to be a great man by many Americans, he spawned an ugly legacy of hatred and bigotry that still has ramifications today.

 

http://www.guardian.....secondworldwar

 

 

Somehow Bush Seniors boasting of the New World Order , and this information, didn't prevent the election of Bush Jr. winning elections.

 

 

The debate over Prescott Bush's behaviour has been bubbling under the surface for some time. There has been a steady internet chatter about the "Bush/Nazi" connection, much of it inaccurate and unfair. But the new documents, many of which were only declassified last year, show that even after America had entered the war and when there was already significant information about the Nazis' plans and policies, he worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler's rise to power. It has also been suggested that the money he made from these dealings helped to establish the Bush family fortune and set up its political dynasty.

 

Remarkably, little of Bush's dealings with Germany has received public scrutiny, partly because of the secret status of the documentation involving him. But now the multibillion dollar legal action for damages by two Holocaust survivors against the Bush family, and the imminent publication of three books on the subject are threatening to make Prescott Bush's business history an uncomfortable issue for his grandson, George W, as he seeks re-election.

 

While there is no suggestion that Prescott Bush was sympathetic to the Nazi cause, the documents reveal that the firm he worked for, Brown Brothers Harriman (BBH), acted as a US base for the German industrialist, Fritz Thyssen, who helped finance Hitler in the 1930s before falling out with him at the end of the decade. The Guardian has seen evidence that shows Bush was the director of the New York-based Union Banking Corporation (UBC) that represented Thyssen's US interests and he continued to work for the bank after America entered the war.

 

Edited August 14, 2012 by Athena

[Alan McDougall]

This has proved a very interesting debate, my answer to the prime question of the thread is!

 

Was Hitler intrinsically evil, I say no? No child is born evil, Hitler "became evil" as an young adult due to circumstances in his life and his weak nature, these very same circumstances in the lives of most people never lead them to order the unspeakable evil he did.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Alan McDougall

[Athena]

This has proved a very interesting debate, my answer to the prime question of the thread is!

 

Was Hitler intrinsically evil, I say no? No child is born evil, Hitler "became evil" as an young adult due to circumstances in his life and his weak nature, these very same circumstances in the lives of most people never lead them to order the unspeakable evil he did.

 

Was Henry Ford evil? His book was translated in 16 languages, and countries willingly turned on the Jews. I think we tend to make too much out the men of history, because they are only riding a wave. Jews had a terrible bloody conflict with Greeks, when Greeks took control of the region. Jews pissed the Romans off so badly, they were kicked out and the land became Palestine. Christian countries have a terrible history of persecuting Jews, and it was the Muslims who gave them refuge. Zionism really ruined that relationship. Martin Luther who is credited with starting the Protestant Revolution hated Jews! No one could possible hold more responsibility for the mistreatment of Jews than Martin Luther.

 

Hitler took his concentration camp idea from the US native American reservations, and that in times of war, when resources are scarce, prisoners suffer terribly! This was true in US Civil War camps, in Japanese prisoner of war camps, and in Germany. If we were as thoughtful of history as we have become of science, perhaps we could gain better judgment? Maybe someday, international agreements about the decent treatment of war prisoners, will mean laws against torturing them, means torturing them is taboo. Perhaps we need to get out of denial about different from the rest of humanity? The mistreatment of prisoners, or whatever we want to call those held in concentration camps, reservations, or outside the wall, involves many things. Lack of resources is a big factor in the mistreatment. Hitler did not begin with the idea of creating so much suffering, and he was not the sole decision maker. But like Lincoln, he couldn't stop what was in motion.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Athena