How did everything really begin?

[Semjase]

My theory how it all began is simple, proven has to be.

Something or nothing is proven and has to be, and

there we can get an explanation for existence.

At the very least we can have nothing which turns

out to be something, so therefore has properties

which gives to a reality that arises out of science.

Or the you have a God creator who has always

been then becomes an unsolvable mystery as

to his origin which even he could even not explain,

becomes the alternative, in a scientific reality

a God outside science seems unlikely.

 

 

[kristalris]

Rereading the thread, the answer "Big Bang" is also misleading. The scientific held position is an expanding universe, which I agree on in the sense that it could be / doesn't rule out a seemingly expanding universe. I.e agree on the observations but disagree / have doubts on the interpretation.

 

Apart from that a Big Bang as an answer dodges the question, namely where did it start?

 

Most physicists have been thought not to address such problems, because they don't provide direct falsifiable predictions.

 

A more philosophical approach in which all the questions are addressed and logically consistently answered is however practical in that it then provides aeries were you could and thus should start to look in order to more quickly solve the problems that are indeed falsifiable.

 

So in choosing Big Bang as a beginning without asking the question what came before even though that in itself isn't falsifiable is a valid way of looking at the problem given a production department problem. The problem then is however that it in fact is a research department issue and thus it fails the mark.

 

To prove this point: we observe pressure in the system. (If you like I can provide you with proof of this.) Where does this come from? The Big Bang? How can that be? Why doesn't it all disintegrate much faster then? And where does the observed order come from? A Big Bang? We observe a mounting entropy.

 

Can it be that what went prior to the Big Bang is irrelevant? Isn't it common sense / correct scientific research to make that question part of the questions to be addressed? And subsequently go through the standard operation procedure of checking all possible positions as long as these are consistent with all known observations?

 

I.e. I accept that the answer "Big Bang" has been given the qualification "scientific" in the sense that most scientists hold this position, I however dispute that to being the correct scientific answer given the correct scientific procedure. Because like I said it dodges the issue which is a no no in the research department where the question belongs.

[hbtrivedi]

Actually you should not give any comment like god created everything. I too believe in god. But we here want to discuss bout how it happened scientifically. Right? I'm not opposing you. Actually what i think is that, if everyone says that there was big bang and then jus started the creation of the present universe, then is it not possible that the matter from which the big bang occured was not the only material in the space then? The dot like matter had an explosion named big bang, and the matter and gases together formed the galaxies. Since then they are moving on their way. My question is wasn't there any other big bang before or after ours which may be many millions or trillions light years far from the spot of our big bang?For us everything begun after the big bang. This is the theory that can be believed compared to other theories because we know that all galaxies are moving far from each other and there was a single point where all were together.So i'll vote to big bang.And the computer program don't fix me. I don't know why but it don't. You asked what was god doing before he created the universe? I think the god builds universe, manages it, maintains it and finaly witnessess its destruction. As we know that our sun, our lovely planet earth, our moon and finally our solar system is also going to destroy. There may be another planet in this vast universe with life but we don't know where it is. So managing life there is also god's work. also there may be an existance of another universe beyond our knowledge.This all darkness is only because of our brain's thinking and our body sense's limitations. We cannot sense infrared rays like mosquitoes does or we cannot here ultra sonic sound like bats. We are living creatures but we are trully not enough evolved to understand the universe's laws and secrets. Time travelling is rather a very far topic. We are still not enough eligible to connect ourselves with the universal energy.I am from india. And i have heard many ethnic and mythical stories in which the sages and multi sense humans or better to say superhumans can connect themselves with the universal energy. They absorb it and could control their life span. They were able to levitate using earth's own gravity in against of their body mass. I've also heard that there are lives on every planet and even on sun. But instead they have on body like us. They are made of electromagnetic waves and vibrations.Its quite funny when you here somebody speaking such things. But who knows? May be this is the truth. Or may be not. We don't know the exacts.May be in the next hundred years it would be possible for the people here on earth to may plan a vacation trip to mars. :DEvery bit of knowledge depends on the technology we have.Scientifically it seems not possible for the people, living today, to find out the secret of the beginning of our universe. Perhaps the next age would find it.

 

Sorry if my english seems like a funny written note with lots of grammatical mistakes.

 

Another thing i'm gonna add is that you cannot ask directly about what was the beginning? Because, the questions between how all started and present conditions are still unsolved. Now when we are travelling back in time questioning and answering each others, we need to in step by step. How could you directly jump to the beginning without solving the middle riddles.You said you are a programmer. So suppose you are playing a video game in which your character is at level 1 which is actually the last stage showing the present condition of your player. Now you need to go through all levels till you reach the last level of the game, which is actually a very begining of your player's life part shown in the video game.

 

If you wanna question about god. Please take a look at indian culture. You may have a rough idea about who's god, where he came from, how this universe is managed by him, etc. I believe that god is one. Though he had different identities in form of different religions, he is a one.

[Moontanman]

Actually you should not give any comment like god created everything. I too believe in god. But we here want to discuss bout how it happened scientifically. Right? I'm not opposing you. Actually what i think is that, if everyone says that there was big bang and then jus started the creation of the present universe, then is it not possible that the matter from which the big bang occured was not the only material in the space then? The dot like matter had an explosion named big bang, and the matter and gases together formed the galaxies. Since then they are moving on their way. My question is wasn't there any other big bang before or after ours which may be many millions or trillions light years far from the spot of our big bang? For us everything begun after the big bang. This is the theory that can be believed compared to other theories because we know that all galaxies are moving far from each other and there was a single point where all were together. So i'll vote to big bang. And the computer program don't fix me. I don't know why but it don't. You asked what was god doing before he created the universe? I think the god builds universe, manages it, maintains it and finaly witnessess its destruction. As we know that our sun, our lovely planet earth, our moon and finally our solar system is also going to destroy. There may be another planet in this vast universe with life but we don't know where it is. So managing life there is also god's work. also there may be an existance of another universe beyond our knowledge. This all darkness is only because of our brain's thinking and our body sense's limitations. We cannot sense infrared rays like mosquitoes does or we cannot here ultra sonic sound like bats. We are living creatures but we are trully not enough evolved to understand the universe's laws and secrets. Time travelling is rather a very far topic. We are still not enough eligible to connect ourselves with the universal energy. I am from india. And i have heard many ethnic and mythical stories in which the sages and multi sense humans or better to say superhumans can connect themselves with the universal energy. They absorb it and could control their life span. They were able to levitate using earth's own gravity in against of their body mass. I've also heard that there are lives on every planet and even on sun. But instead they have on body like us. They are made of electromagnetic waves and vibrations. Its quite funny when you here somebody speaking such things. But who knows? May be this is the truth. Or may be not. We don't know the exacts. May be in the next hundred years it would be possible for the people here on earth to may plan a vacation trip to mars. Every bit of knowledge depends on the technology we have. Scientifically it seems not possible for the people, living today, to find out the secret of the beginning of our universe. Perhaps the next age would find it.

 

Sorry if my english seems like a funny written note with lots of grammatical mistakes.

 

Another thing i'm gonna add is that you cannot ask directly about what was the beginning? Because, the questions between how all started and present conditions are still unsolved. Now when we are travelling back in time questioning and answering each others, we need to in step by step. How could you directly jump to the beginning without solving the middle riddles. You said you are a programmer. So suppose you are playing a video game in which your character is at level 1 which is actually the last stage showing the present condition of your player. Now you need to go through all levels till you reach the last level of the game, which is actually a very begining of your player's life part shown in the video game.

 

If you wanna question about god. Please take a look at indian culture. You may have a rough idea about who's god, where he came from, how this universe is managed by him, etc. I believe that god is one. Though he had different identities in form of different religions, he is a one.

 

 

Give me some empirical evidence that there is a god much less your idea of god, what you feel and what you've heard are not meaningful. I can find people who would dispute you with Holy Scripture in a half dozen other basic religions and thousands of individual sects that not only disagree with you but disagree with each other... often to the point of wanting to actually kill people over it but none of them have any more or any less evidence than you do... Indian culture, while I'm sure rich and varied has no more evidence for god than the ancient Egyptians had or any other dead god or pantheon of gods... why not toss the entire concept on the trash heap with all the other ones we no longer need? Like Thor or Zeus? Ra or Adriana?

[PeterJ]

Existence is paradoxical. It is a misunderstanding. This is why it makes no sense to us.

[SomethingToPonder]

 

 

Matter cant move through space faster than the speed of light, but matter can move faster than light if it is embedded in space that is expanding at greater than light speed, such as extremely distant galaxies that are receding at more than light speed from us

 

 

So technically if we were to attempt to achieve warp speed at some time in the future, We cant physically propel a craft through space any faster than the speed of light, But we could technically Move space around the craft ,therefore achieving distances never thought possible?

 

 

 

Hi all, This is my first post on here and i am no genius. As a matter of fact my knowledge of science is limited and im hoping to expand it and learn as much as possible as i go.

I marked other as my choice, but im not certain of what my idea of how it all "began" is. I've read through a couple of posts on this thread already and i think that people are onto something when we say there was no "beginning" as such.

If the Big bang happened, then matter accelerated outwards at a phenomenal rate there must have been some matter there in the first place to make the reaction. if there was "nothing" before the big bang then it would seem unlikely that all of a sudden for no reason there was a big bang and matter appeared and just started expanding outwards, Creating galaxies and solar systems and much much more as it went. There must have been something that caused the Bang itself, some components that were added together to make the bang etc, And if so then Who or what was around at the time of This and how can we research it?

The other thing that fascinates me is time. It is my theory that time did not Start when the big bang happened, time must have already been in motion even if it was a different Timeline. im finding it very hard to explain what i mean in words but too try and simplify it, try picturing the "It's all a computer program " theory.

Time only existed for the beings and things in the game from the moment we started the program,but yet our timeline is already at 13 billion years at the point when their time starts.

Now would they look at the beginning of time and wonder exactly what we wonder now?

When researchers are looking through the hubble telescope etc and they spot a planet millions of light years away, They are looking into the past because of the billions of years it took for the planets light to reach us. If we were to attempt to achieve warp speed, Could we not then Move space around us, even now spacecrafts are being propelled through space and the most advanced research is still focusing on making advanced models that can go further or faster. So if we found a way to embed a craft in to space we could move space around the craft , Light years of travel without moving .I know i making it sound like a sci-fi movie but there has to be some scientific accuracy.I would be interested to know other's thoughts on the matter. does it not seem natural that if there was any sort of extra terrestrial life out there, that were capable of terraforming planets or advanced space travel that they would have cloaking devices that would allow them to be practically invisible in our solar system/galaxy. Our army has stealth planes invisible to our most advanced Radar and UAV. So any race that was able of building spacecrafts that would be traveling about would most likely have cloaking devices of some kind that would be impossible for us to see because of our level of technology.

 

Without trying to start a long argument here, The big bang could be wrong, it might not have happened that way, There could be a million other possibilities. But we as humans in the 21st century would think that this had to be the only right answer, it's widely accepted by the public now. It's only scientists looking for other explanations and religious people who refute the big bang. But it does seem the most likely in a sense and all the things they are claiming they have found to do with the big bang like the cosmic ripples etc.

could have been any number of ways, finding out is all part of humanity's next step.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2013 by SomethingToPonder

[The Peon]

I agree with the big bang model having started our current universe, however it does not explain where the singularity comes from. I thus look at the evidence, and matter/energy itself. Energy cannot be created, nor destroyed. It simply changes form. Thus to me, all the energy that exists is eternal, having no beginning. Given that energy is in constant flux in one way or another, it is also inevitable that our Universe would have come about, and it's inevitable that it will come about again along with an infinite amount of variations of it.

Edited January 21, 2013 by The Peon

[SebastianOakes]

.In highschool the theory of the big bang and things slowly evolving to what they are today made a lot more sense to me but the same massive logic loophole was still there. My 8 year old self would have been able to ask the same questions he did about the god theory and still find the breaking point. The questions are: "Why did the big bang occur? What caused all those elements to be a point and then suddenly explode to slowly evolve and create the universe? Where was that "dense point of existence" an hour before that explosion of existence? What happened a year before the explosion? How was that dense point of existence first created? What existed before it was created? If time is infinite... Keep telling me about the past, what happened before each event and there should be no beginning but rather a never ending sequence of events. If there is no beginning then why are we searching for one?

You mention a few times here the idea of time before the big bang, but the general thought (As far as i'm aware) is that time itself did not exist before the big bang, and was in fact created with it. It is something that seems literally impossible to picture in your head, in the same way that picturing literally nothing seems impossible. You must remember that time is not constant; around huge gravitational sources such as black holes, and near the speed of light, very strange things happen (warping of space-time etc) according to the tried and tested theory of special relativity.

 

I also find the idea of anything being infinite, time included, a rather perplexing notion, though I see no reason for it to be outside the realms of possibility.

In terms of what happened to cause the big bang, I would be inclined to believe we will never know, As we exist within it.

 

Existence is paradoxical. It is a misunderstanding. This is why it makes no sense to us.

This sounds intriguing, please elaborate!

[Ceasium]

@ OP

 

I have spent a lot of hours thinking about this topic, it is simple, complex, rational & irrational, and so forth and so forth ... at the same time. But the only conlusion that I could draw was that I was reasoning in circles, just like you. Every possible option, including the one of god draws the same conclusion.

 

Imagine this: the universe is like a circle/sinusoid and has no beginning or end. You could pick any (random) point in time and conclude: 'ah the universe is currently in this and that state'. This is one of the many reasonings that say that the universe in infinite and repeats itself in circles (like the big crunch), or that it does change over time but never has a beginning or end (the big rip). It just does not give us any information on how it all began, because it did not began at all, because the universe in this case has no beginning and no end.

 

The other possibility is that you say: god created the universe and therefore it began all when god created us. (Nothing is stated about the end of the universe by a god, so I assume that time will go on for infinity but there is a 'beginning'. This theory contains a major flaw, apart from the fact that this theory does not say a thing aboud how god was created (you end up reasoning just like the first theory), this theory deceives us by letting us think that there is a beginning. Imagine this universe as a straight line, all lines go one forever, and have no beginning or end, but the difference with this line is that we humans gave it a certain domain e.g. D f(x) = [0 A.D. ; 10^x >. What I conclude from this is that you still have no beginning or an end, but that we humans give it an artificial beginning (and end at the moment we get exterminated).

 

As OP told, the big bang only explains that there was a beginning, and not why it began, or what there was before this all began. So this theory is inconclusive as well about the point of 'true' creation. We only know about the moment of our creation, and nothing else.

 

I really hope that one of the forum's members could prove me wrong, so that my own curiosity on how it all began is satisfied

 

The only logical thing I thought of was to eliminate the 'arguments' that did not make sense, and afterwards the only thing that I concluded was (pardon me for my language) we don't know any shit, and it is just really weird that we exist at all. It makes more sense to me that only nothing exists, than that something exists. If nothing existed it would'nt have been such a pain in the neck, as our existence is now

[Moontanman]

All this really means is we really don't know, our mathematical concepts break down before T=0. Anything else is simply speculation...

[SamBridge]

I keep thinking that I've decided how the universe began, but there's just so little confirmation about it that I keep changing what I think the beginning was. I don't see how there could actually be a finite "boundary" of the universe, even for a 4 dimensional hyper-donut where space runs in a loop, it can still be modeled as having a boundary if you represent it's surface as being 3 dimensional space because "distance" is a thing and it does not exist outside the universe which contains everything, so therefore there cannot be an infinite "distance" of nothingness outside the universe. But it doesn't really make sense that it has always existed either, time didn't exist before the universe existed, and what would have caused it to exist in the first place? We can't seem to answer it with any certainty.

Edited January 22, 2013 by SamBridge

[N S]

Well, this riddle seems endless. Just a speculation:

Nothingness does not change, to that, I suppose, everyone agrees; and all existence HAS to be preceded with nothingness, that's also logical. Then the best explanation is that there still is nothingness everywhere. What we see is matter and anti-matter, past and future, etc. all opposing halves, which in themselves complement the fact that they together form neutrality, which is nothingness. We ourselves might be composed of opposing emotions internally, or our opposites might exist elsewhere.

[SamBridge]

No actually it isn't obvious because if there was literally "nothing" before the universe existed, not distance nor time existed, but if time never existed and there was nothing keeping track of time, that means the universe has always existed when it started to exist, and there was literally no amount of time that the universe wasn't in existence because time can only be created from the universe.

[SebastianOakes]

This makes for great discussion, but I can't see humanity ever gaining a definitive answer.

 

The way I see it is this: Our universe has a defined set of laws, even if we don't know/understand them yet. We know this because we can make predictions. If i drop a ball, it will fall to the floor; If i repeat, then it does the same thing again. We make all of our logical/reasoned decisions based on this fact. Now in terms of what was there before the big bang? A literal nothingness - no dimensions of space, no time, no laws to govern how anything interacts ( since there is no universe to contain it) . In this pre-universe, what is to say that a universe can't simply pop into existence. It would be true randomness. It is not even a matter of it being a long period of nothing and then a sudden expansion, since there is no TIME to govern it. These are all things that are impossible to imagine in their entirety, because there is no comparison; Everything we have ever seen is based upon our own universe and its laws.

Edited January 23, 2013 by SebastianOakes

[cladking]

Have you seen this talk from Lawrence Krauss? It's just slightly over an hour, and discusses this concept quite a bit.

 

 

 

 

I've seen this before and it is superb. It dovetails nicely with what I believe is the ancient metaphysics as it appears in the Pyramid Texts; 0 = 0.

 

I often joke that man creates the universe by the invention of machine intelligence which runs amuk and becomes "God".

 

Everything worth anything makes itself, right?

 

Perhaps time is the only thing that actually exists and it is immutable and eternal.

 

Perhaps it can, however, coalesce into tiny bits of "matter" which can form the building blocks of of matter. Maybe the universe is far older than we can imagine and big bangs occur in regions where too matter collects.

 

It's a massive dance that grows ever heavier and more extensive.

[SamBridge]

 

 

I've seen this before and it is superb. It dovetails nicely with what I believe is the ancient metaphysics as it appears in the Pyramid Texts; 0 = 0.

 

I often joke that man creates the universe by the invention of machine intelligence which runs amuk and becomes "God".

 

Everything worth anything makes itself, right?

 

Perhaps time is the only thing that actually exists and it is immutable and eternal.

 

Perhaps it can, however, coalesce into tiny bits of "matter" which can form the building blocks of of matter. Maybe the universe is far older than we can imagine and big bangs occur in regions where too matter collects.

 

It's a massive dance that grows ever heavier and more extensive.

if this weren't the philosophy or speculation section...man..

[Arjun Deepak Shriram]

Not God, but as it is called, in Spirituality, the Higher Power, created everything, including The big bang.

 

Meta Physics books lying scattered around in my room bluntly prove through empirical results the existence of the Higher Power and of EVERYTHING I can possibly think about. I will soon be receiving yet another particular book from a particular author from a friend of mine here in India who has a secret agent in the US. When I last stumbled upon this book several years ago, it had so much power, and did the strangest of things, that I got so scared, that I had to burn it.

 

Now, I have ordered it again, and since I am not a scared child any more, I am confident That I will be able to handle it. It should take only about a week or two to get to me. After that, the real fun begins.

[krash661]

Meta Physics books lying scattered around in my room bluntly prove through empirical results the existence of the Higher Power and of EVERYTHING

tell me the difference between a god that exists but does not manifest in this reality and a God that does not exist.

[Popcorn Sutton]

At the beginning of our universe, which I'm thinking it's actually just our galaxy, there was an impact, something was put to the power of something else, it caused the solidification of our galaxy. But, it turns out that there are wormholes (or folds) in reality, which means that there is another galaxy out there that had the same event (or something similar) and all the same things unfolded (at approximately 11 trillion light years away on average). Well, these similarities turn out to be equalities which explains the spooky nature of interaction. So what happened before the beginning is explained by saying everything................... except! the last reducible unit.

[Amitash]

 

Excuse me, What is this?!

Please do pay attention that OP is asking about creation of existence not evolution. (or I'm missing something here?)

 

You are probably missing something.. The first life that emerged were simple cells that were able to metabolize. This could have happened by chance because there was an ocean of chemical reactions on the earth then. With numerous reactions taking place simultaneously, it is not unbelievable that some reactions actually gave rise to the first cell. Then we all descended from them.

[PeterJ]

Sebastian - On existence you asked me to elaborate. Here goes.

 

Existence is paradoxical. This is a central problem in metaphysics. It always has been. The intractability of the 'beginning' question is one sign of this.

 

This suggest that there is something wrong with our idea of existence. It makes no sense to us.

 

This leads to the idea that perhaps the Buddhist idea of existence is more useful. This would say that nothing really exists, thus solving the problem of how existence is possible.

 

Sorry to bang on about Buddhism, but really it does have a lot of answers that work, whether they're correct or not.

[Ophiolite]

When 'something' clearly is, that is, exists, it seems fatuous to insist it does not. This renders your interpretation of the Bhuddist solution a non-starter in my eyes.

[PeterJ]

Oh no. The idea is not that nothing exists. It is that nothing exists in the way we usually think it does. Our idea of existence would be faulty, and this is why it would make no sense to us. Not a very contentious claim. .

[Alan McDougall]

God is the most logical answer, in my very fallible understanding, it is a question that science with never answer!

[Prometheus]

This leads to the idea that perhaps the Buddhist idea of existence is more useful. This would say that nothing really exists, thus solving the problem of how existence is possible.

 

Where can i find this teaching?