Right-wing governments 'increase suicide rates'

[john5746]

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Semen acts as an anti-depressant

26 June 2002

 

Guess what' date=' suicide rates for woman, whose partners wear a condom, are higher than the woman who get a healthy shot of semen.[/quote']

 

How is it prescribed - oral or anal?

 

Interesting article, but correlation != causation as we all know and even if it does in this case, they are speculating on the reason.

[Tetrahedrite]

First of all, I really don't care if the suicide rate goes up OR down, it doesn't affect my life at all.

You may not care, but not all people are self absorbed gits, incapable of empathy for their fellow man.

[Tetrahedrite]

Now' date=' I think your link is suspect. If you scroll about half way down, you'll find a box with links to other stories

Click on this one:

 

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Semen acts as an anti-depressant

26 June 2002

[/quote']

Last time I checked, New Scientist was a respectable science journal.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that suicide and depression could be related stories!

[chadn]

Right, lets spell this out for you. The United Kingdom is a different country to the United States. The report was from the United Kingdom and Australia, it focused on trends in the United Kingdom that were reflected in New South Wales.

 

This is why the report highlighted governments that were lead by Harold MacMillan, Ramsay McDonald, David Lloyd George and Tony Blair.

 

If you can't curb your Republican dogma enough to realise that there is a different govenment and society in the UK, you have no hope of understanding the impacts the report is highlighting.

 

You mean liberals dont attack the right in the UK? Wow you guys really are different.

 

And I dont think the differences are as huge as you make them out to be. Right conservatives in the US have similar stances to the right conservatives in the UK.

 

No, you are glossing over the human suffering and loss of life that governments can cause in society by making crass comparisons to communist countries. I assume you are doing this so we all shout 'yay for Bush'.

 

Really, prove that these governments are the cause of the suicides. I do not have access to the actual report and so am forced to go off of what I am given and what I am given says that this is pure speculation. From what the article tells me, they found the suicide rates during different administrations and then attempt to relate the two. So Im going to sit here and say bullshit until better proof is offered.

 

Wrong Army, wrong country, wrong continent, wrong government, wrong politics.

 

Whatever, my original statement had nothing to do with the article, but was meant as a refutation of budullewraagh ignorant claim, so take it as you will.

 

No.

 

Not only do I think you are lying, even if you were not it would not make an iota of difference to the effects of political societies on the suicidal elements in humanity.

 

Dont rally care if you believe me or not, once you've had a Drill Seargeant on your ass the critcisms of others lose a lot of power.

 

I work with suicidal people. I happen to think studies that will help to highlight issues leading to suicides are a good thing. I do not like to seem them highjacked to push a republican point of view across.

 

But its okay to use them to push a liberal point across, rightttttt, yah, we arent being hypocritical at all are we.

 

"Oh, its just tearing me up inside how you damn conservatives are trying to twist this into a political issue."

 

Sorry bud, it wasnt the conservative right who wrote this swill, all I see is a pathetic attempt to link conservative governments to suicide. Just who the hell is doing the politicing here? Certainly aint the right, which leaves just one other option. And why is it I think your lying about the "I work with suicidal people bit?"

[Douglas]

You may not care, but not all people are self absorbed gits, incapable of empathy for their fellow man.

Yes, and tell me you weep each time you read of a suicide in the paper.

[Douglas]

How is it prescribed - oral or anal?

 

Interesting article' date=' but correlation != causation as we all know and even if it does in this case, they are speculating on the reason.[/quote']

Excellent question.....they didn't specify.

[Douglas]

Last time I checked' date=' New Scientist was a respectable science journal.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that suicide and depression could be related stories![/quote']

Yeah right, when I read the 2nd paragraph, I knew what team they were on.

 

The "wall street Journal" is a widely read respectable paper, but they lean to the right.

The NY Times is respectible too, but lean far left.

 

I think someone on this board mentioned that the "economist" was held in high esteem, but hung to the left.

[Ophiolite]

And don't give me that "my brothers friends cousin is in the army so I know what I'm talking about" line.

I have been in the military for almost 2 years now' date=' now dont you feel like an idiot.[/quote']See! Typical right wing mentality. Avoid the question at all cost. Answer atinymonkeys question!! Is your brother's friend's cousin in the army? The world has a right to know.

 

 

[Author's Note: In view of the misinterpretation of a previous post by Lance, the author wishes it to be known that the above statement does not necessarily reflect the views of his Aunt Jocelyn, or the British Government. He is, however, firmly of the view that Roger Staubach was the best quarterback Dallas ever had. You don't have to be a Republican to appreciate a Hail Mary pass with three seconds on the clock.]

[Sayonara]

And I dont think the differences are as huge as you make them out to be. Right conservatives in the US have similar stances to the right conservatives in the UK.

The differences are significant enough for your attack on budullewraagh to be irrelevant to the thread, so at best you're on a hobby horse here.

 

 

Really, prove that these governments are the cause of the suicides.

I don't think the claim that the government is the direct cause of the suicide has been made. What is being said is that there is an indirect link: social policies and the degree of pastoral intervention from an administration can influence the way people value themselves, and how they see themselves as being valued.

 

Using the political segue that is "if you can't instantly prove a direct link I will declare myself the victor" simply serves to highlight exactly the sort of thing that makes citizens despair of the people who are supposed to represent them.

 

 

But its okay to use them to push a liberal point across, rightttttt, yah, we arent being hypocritical at all are we.

As has been pointed out, you are muddying the waters by arbitrarily assigning terms with meanings that aren't relevant to the context.

 

 

And why is it I think your lying about the "I work with suicidal people bit?"

I can assure you he is not.

 

 

Yes, and tell me you weep each time you read of a suicide in the paper.

False Dilemma.

 

You should know better.

[SubJunk]

I'd just like to point out that this article was in the same magazine that blew the Seti@home thing way out of proportion.

I subscribe to new scientist because it sometimes has good articles and encourages imagination, it shows the innovative side to science, but to blindly trust it, especially on an article like that, seems ridiculous to me.

[Sayonara]

I'd just like to point out that this article was in the same magazine that blew the Seti@home thing way out of proportion.

Although it's directed at a magazine rather than a person, that's an ad hominem.

 

 

I subscribe to new scientist because it sometimes has good articles and encourages imagination, it shows the innovative side to science, but to blindly trust it, especially on an article like that, seems ridiculous to me.

Surely blindly not trusting it without reason is - at the very least - equally as ridiculous?

[atinymonkey]

You mean liberals dont attack the right in the UK? Wow you guys really are different.

In the UK, the Liberals are on the right. They are called the Liberal Democrats.

 

http://www.libdems.org.uk/

 

The word 'Liberal' means open minded, willing to take on other opinions, ready to accept change, free from bias, not restrained by rules, not strict etc.

 

However, political motivations are not a factor in a scientific study of the effects of government policies in society. The report simply point out the link between the British Governments and suicide rates, and explains why this occurs. The only people blinded by political leanings are people like you, misinterpreting a British study of British society on some sort of obscure attack on Bush.

 

And I dont think the differences are as huge as you make them out to be. Right conservatives in the US have similar stances to the right conservatives in the UK.

Yes, well, actually no. The conservatives in the US are loosley based around the conservatives in the UK, but that's about it. Michael Howard is not George Bush Jnr, and the polices do not match. The UK is run by democratic parliament, the Conservatives in the US are a different animal because of that. Democracy in the UK, for instance, is separate from religion.

 

Really, prove that these governments are the cause of the suicides. I do not have access to the actual report and so am forced to go off of what I am given and what I am given says that this is pure speculation. From what the article tells me, they found the suicide rates during different administrations and then attempt to relate the two. So Im going to sit here and say bullshit until better proof is offered.

What they have outlined in the report is that the conservative ideology builds a individualistic, "winner-takes-all" society. This means that people on the boundaries, the unemployed or disenfranchised, are more isolated by government policy. Basically, the UK Conservative government takes the view that if you cannot work then you are not a valid member of society. Now, propagating that view will make already clinically depressed people feel a lot more isolated. That really doesn't take much more explanation.

 

A lot of the more hopeless people who commit suicide are people who feel they have no future. If your unemployed and the government has made it clear that it sees you as a burden on society, the result is quite clear. Isolated and put on the scrap heap, that section of society will see suicides increase.

 

Dont rally care if you believe me or not, once you've had a Drill Seargeant on your ass the critcisms of others lose a lot of power.

Lets take the army issue and go off on a tangent.

 

There is a high suicide rate in ex-army staff compared to the general society. the reason for this is the armed forces creates a community that operates as an extended family. They provide food, shelter, support and close knit family groups. When people leave the armed forces, they lose the community and instantly feel more isolated. The skills an ex army soldier has are not in high demand in the outside world and they are no longer in a family unit that provides for the needs of the individual. It's quite common for ex-solders to suffer from depression while making this massive adjustment to normal society. The transition of a person from the armed forces into normal life is a microcosm of the transition in society from a Government that tends to the needs of the people, and one that encourages them to be independent. The effects are the same, only the scales are different.

 

But its okay to use them to push a liberal point across, rightttttt, yah, we arent being hypocritical at all are we.

'Them' being qualified unbiased scientists and 'liberal' meaning perfectly normal, then yes.

 

"Oh, its just tearing me up inside how you damn conservatives are trying to twist this into a political issue."

I never said that. I said I didn't like you belittling human suffering so you can make crass political statments.

 

I don't see why I would damn Conservatives, I am a Conservative. My family is Conservative, my grandfather was a Conservative Councilor and a Conservative Mayor. My family has been Conservative supporters for hundreds of years, our support predates the existence of the United States and goes back to the signing of the Magna Carta.

 

Sorry bud, it wasnt the conservative right who wrote this swill, all I see is a pathetic attempt to link conservative governments to suicide. Just who the hell is doing the politicing here? Certainly aint the right, which leaves just one other option.

For the last time, they are scientists. They are not some insidous plot to overthow the Conservatives. They are pointing out a valid and obvious link. The report is showing the data and descriping the link, all your doing is handwaving.

 

And why is it I think your lying about the "I work with suicidal people bit?"

Because you have never met me in real life. Other people on the forum know me in real life, and so I've no particular need to prove myself to be telling the truth or not. However, I'm sure someone would pull me up if I was lying. That gives me credence that you don't have.

[blike]

Although it's directed at a magazine rather than a person, that's an ad hominem.

Although its an ad hominem, its also making a valid observation that at least warrants consideration. Calling a liar a liar is an ad hominem, but it still may be true.

 

Nonetheless, suicide rates in right wing governments are up because liberals, fearing capitalism and the concept of self-reliance, self-control, hard work, and personal responsibility, just can't figure out what to do with themselves.

 

::ducks::

 

But seriously, interesting article, but nothing other than "suicides are up 17% during right-wing terms" can be inferred. Maybe the weather was bad those years.

[Sayonara]

Although its an ad hominem, its also making a valid observation that at least warrants consideration. Calling a liar a liar is an ad hominem, but it still may be true.

Two-way street and so forth.

[chadn]

In the UK, the Liberals are on the right. They are called the Liberal Democrats.

 

http://www.libdems.org.uk/

 

A party name, not at all what I mean by liberal. When I use the term Liberal it is in reference to the left, when I use the term conservative it is in reference to the right, is that so hard?

 

The word 'Liberal' means open minded, willing to take on other opinions, ready to accept change, free from bias, not restrained by rules, not strict etc.

 

It has also, over time become associated with certain political philosophies as well. The English language is always making these small changes.

 

However, political motivations are not a factor in a scientific study of the effects of government policies in society. The report simply point out the link between the British Governments and suicide rates, and explains why this occurs. The only people blinded by political leanings are people like you, misinterpreting a British study of British society on some sort of obscure attack on Bush.

 

Dude, are you so blind to think that Im a Bush supporter? Get you head out of your arse, I havent even mentioned Bush once.

 

I do, however, associated myself with the conservative, aka right-wing, political philosophy and this is an attack on that very set of political ideals.

 

I have good reason to doubt this study, it may be that suicide rates are slightly higher during right wing governments, but what I doubt is the reasoning that the researchers claim. They state it is due to the policies of these governments, but what backing do they have for such claims? In order for this to be credible they need to have the reasoning behind each suicide, do they have this? Do they have even the slightest concept of why these people took their own lives? Unless they do its nothing but speculation. Maybe you should tell me this, since you are British and work with suicides Im sure you have access to the article. How about you support the claims this study is making with the actual evidence that links government policies and suicide. Because all that I see is speculation between suicide rates for that year and the government in charge at the time.

 

You also claim that political motivations are not a factor, prove it. This study is politically charged, no matter what you say. Theres a good chance these researchers are liberal, aka left wing. If Im right about this then political motivation could very well be a factor.

 

Yes, well, actually no. The conservatives in the US are loosley based around the conservatives in the UK, but that's about it. Michael Howard is not George Bush Jnr, and the polices do not match. The UK is run by democratic parliament, the Conservatives in the US are a different animal because of that. Democracy in the UK, for instance, is separate from religion.

 

The main issue of this article is economical policies, you even say so yourself:

 

What they have outlined in the report is that the conservative ideology builds a individualistic, "winner-takes-all" society. This means that people on the boundaries, the unemployed or disenfranchised, are more isolated by government policy. Basically, the UK Conservative government takes the view that if you cannot work then you are not a valid member of society. Now, propagating that view will make already clinically depressed people feel a lot more isolated. That really doesn't take much more explanation.

 

Which in these regards the right in both nation are very similar. So I stand by my claim that there is little difference between the right (notice Im using the terms right and left now, dont want to confuse you again) in America and the right in the UK.

 

It may seem that such policies would have that effect, but do these researchers back such claims with actual studies into the suicides or are they just speculating as the researchers themselves claim.

 

A lot of the more hopeless people who commit suicide are people who feel they have no future. If your unemployed and the government has made it clear that it sees you as a burden on society, the result is quite clear. Isolated and put on the scrap heap, that section of society will see suicides increase.

 

For some reason I dont think its all that clear, it would be interesting to know the economic standings of those who committed suicides. So once again I have to wonder if the researchers even bothered to look into this when they submitted their study or is it all speculation once again.

 

There is a high suicide rate in ex-army staff compared to the general society. the reason for this is the armed forces creates a community that operates as an extended family. They provide food, shelter, support and close knit family groups. When people leave the armed forces, they lose the community and instantly feel more isolated. The skills an ex army soldier has are not in high demand in the outside world and they are no longer in a family unit that provides for the needs of the individual. It's quite common for ex-solders to suffer from depression while making this massive adjustment to normal society. The transition of a person from the armed forces into normal life is a microcosm of the transition in society from a Government that tends to the needs of the people, and one that encourages them to be independent. The effects are the same, only the scales are different.

 

What evidence do you have to support this? I honestly think that the role of government is being blown out of proportion.

 

For the last time, they are scientists. They are not some insidous plot to overthow the Conservatives. They are pointing out a valid and obvious link. The report is showing the data and descriping the link, all your doing is handwaving.

 

I dont care what they are, they are not above being influenced by their own politics, beliefs, or anything else. Creation Scientists are scientists as well, do you think they are above being influenced by their beliefs? In something this politically charged, I have reasons to doubt.

 

Because you have never met me in real life. Other people on the forum know me in real life, and so I've no particular need to prove myself to be telling the truth or not. However, I'm sure someone would pull me up if I was lying. That gives me credence that you don't have.

 

And you have never met me in real life either, yet you have already accused me of lying, and have jumped to several conclusions on my beliefs, like that Im rabid supporter of Bush.

[SubJunk]

Although its an ad hominem' date=' its also making a valid observation that at least warrants consideration. Calling a liar a liar is an ad hominem, but it still may be true.

 

Nonetheless, suicide rates in right wing governments are up because liberals, fearing capitalism and the concept of self-reliance, self-control, hard work, and personal responsibility, just can't figure out what to do with themselves.

[/quote']

 

Nice! You should come to http://www.scam.com and check out some of our political arguments there, you'd love it.

[Lance]

waaaaaa! Theres sombody named Lance over there.

[Mokele]

Creation Scientists are scientists as well, do you think they are above being influenced by their beliefs?

 

Actually, no, they aren't scientists, even though they erroneously label themselves as such. They do not (and cannot, because of their belief's unscientific nature) follow the scientific method, and therefore are not scientists.

 

Mokele, nit-picking

[SubJunk]

maybe try "L@nce" or "Lanc3" or "1ance" but I'd understand if you don't like them

[atinymonkey]

A party name, not at all what I mean by liberal. When I use the term Liberal it is in reference to the left, when I use the term conservative it is in reference to the right, is that so hard?

No, you misunderstand. The term 'Liberal' in the UK does not mean right wing, so in the context of this thread about UK govenments Liberal will take the UK meaning of the word. It's called context, use it.

 

It has also, over time become associated with certain political philosophies as well. The English language is always making these small changes.

English use of words equates to common usage in England, not in America. American's incorrect use of words creates americanisms, which are not adopted into English.

 

Dude, are you so blind to think that Im a Bush supporter? Get you head out of your arse, I havent even mentioned Bush once.

It doesn't really matter, your crass attempts to discredit the report are based on your knowlage of american govenment, which have no bearing or reference to English govenments nor this report.

 

I do, however, associated myself with the conservative, aka right-wing, political philosophy and this is an attack on that very set of political ideals.

I'm conservative, and it's not attacking my ideals. Perhaps this problem stems from the fact the report is English and you are Amercian, the two versions of conservative govenments are different and in different countrys.

 

I have good reason to doubt this study, it may be that suicide rates are slightly higher during right wing governments, but what I doubt is the reasoning that the researchers claim.

They are talking about British govenment, which we have covered and agreed you know very, very little about.

 

They state it is due to the policies of these governments, but what backing do they have for such claims? In order for this to be credible they need to have the reasoning behind each suicide, do they have this? Do they have even the slightest concept of why these people took their own lives? Unless they do its nothing but speculation. Maybe you should tell me this, since you are British and work with suicides Im sure you have access to the article.

Read it yourself, and no I don't have access to all material relating to sucide just because I work in the area. That's a moronic thing to suggest.

 

How about you support the claims this study is making with the actual evidence that links government policies and suicide.

How would you propose I did that without setting up my own study, which would use the same scientific methods to come to the same conclusion?

 

Because all that I see is speculation between suicide rates for that year and the government in charge at the time.

Funny, all I see is someone blindly defending a govenment that is not under attack.

 

You also claim that political motivations are not a factor, prove it.

The report was from a university, produced by scientists and cross checked by an Australian university. The pressure is on you to disprove what's being said with more than handwaving, not on the report to somehow become more substancial.

 

This study is politically charged, no matter what you say. Theres a good chance these researchers are liberal, aka left wing. If Im right about this then political motivation could very well be a factor.

It's a study of suicide rates, why would anyone waste 3 years just to make some bizzare political point? Don't you think someone might have pointed out any assumptions and wild linkes?

 

The main issue of this article is economical policies' date=' you even say so yourself:

 

Which in these regards the right in both nation are [b']very similar.[/b] So I stand by my claim that there is little difference between the right (notice Im using the terms right and left now, dont want to confuse you again) in America and the right in the UK.

 

It may seem that such policies would have that effect, but do these researchers back such claims with actual studies into the suicides or are they just speculating as the researchers themselves claim.

The main issue is the rise in suicide rates. My issue with you is your lack of knowlage about UK govenments.

 

The link to the US was speculation, not the link into the UK. Stop using strawmen.

 

For some reason I dont think its all that clear, it would be interesting to know the economic standings of those who committed suicides. So once again I have to wonder if the researchers even bothered to look into this when they submitted their study or is it all speculation once again.

Your ignorance is not a reason to damn a report, now is it?

 

What evidence do you have to support this? I honestly think that the role of government is being blown out of proportion.

The government controls the welfare state, it has everything to do with them. It's not the tree elves who look after society.

 

I dont care what they are, they are not above being influenced by their own politics, beliefs, or anything else. Creation Scientists are scientists as well, do you think they are above being influenced by their beliefs? In something this politically charged, I have reasons to doubt.

Fine, pop off and get yourself more credentials than the research scientists and then you can talk about influence in scientific studys.

 

And you have never met me in real life either, yet you have already accused me of lying, and have jumped to several conclusions on my beliefs, like that Im rabid supporter of Bush.

I do think your lying about your involvement in the Army, but that's not the issue under discussion. I can think you are a big fat commmunist pinko for all the relevence it has, you still don't know enough about UK govenments to make any sort of informed opinion and you are still ignoring the issue of suicide to turn this into a political debate.