Titan Inhabitable?

[TimeTraveler]

I appreciate your kind words I think for most of us we take for granted what we have and believe our resources are unlimited but in reality they are not. It is hard to predict the future and resource depletion may be considered the distant future (100 years or so for some, 40-50 years roughly for oil and others). Looking into space is one of three options that I can percieve. And is the best one for maintaining our way of life. Really it is up to us to begin the process of our survival now, if not it may be too late. And it doesn't hurt to get on it as soon as possible and make it less of a problem in the future.

 

Mining and colonizing space will require almost as much resources as they recover at first but in the long run as technologies advance and new, easier and cheaper ways become available we can begin recovering what has been lost. Humans have survival instinct, but we also are procrastinators and if we wait too long our resources might be too far gone. An alternate and near-unlimited source may be discovered one day, but I would rather see us make an effort now in case that does not happen. The Earth is fragile and resources are not unlimited, the first step is just realizing this.

 

As for colonizing or terraforming, Mars is the first logical step of many. Mars is the closest of the planets to the asteroid belt which is going to be a great supply of resources. The moon is also a good place to begin colonizing because it will serve as an outpost between bases, we can take stuff from Earth to the moon in the shortest length of time at the lowest cost. The moon will serve as a great launching and testing site for future missions, it may become a desired colony for human civilians one day, but in the long run Mars will be more desireable to live than the Moon. Mars can be terraformed with our current technology and if we use resources from Mars itself then this would be a logical thing to attempt.

 

Eventually down the road an outpost on one of Jupiters moons seems reasonable, leading us to Titan. Terraforming Titan seems like the ideal thing to do at this point to make it more Earth-like and hospitable. But it will be a long process that will take creativity and alot of resources. By this time resources should be on an inclined state as there are so many available in our solor system. Eventually there will probably colonies throughout our solar system, but they will likely end in the Saturian system. I doubt anything besides mining and research will happen past that point, and a shift to get to other solar systems will become a primary goal.

 

That is my version of the future, but don't tell TIC (Temporal Incursion Commitee) that I told you, the sentence for tamporing with the timeline is execution.

[us.2u]

Wow, I'm impressed it's like star-trek in it's genesis I guess using the moon space stations, then Mars is like crawling then learning to walk, & eventually run; so if space is infinite I guess eventually if man is successful there will be no end to our future (well hopefully anyway) it's an incredible amount to think about if we succeed I guess we could be like space too...." infinite?" who knows?...us.2u

[Aardvark]

Wow, I'm impressed it's like star-trek in it's genesis I guess using the moon space stations, then Mars is like crawling then learning to walk, & eventually run; so if space is infinite I guess eventually if man is successful there will be no end to our future (well hopefully anyway) it's an incredible amount to think about if we succeed I guess we could be like space too...." infinite?" who knows?...us.2u

 

Thankfully there is always entropy, that at least will prevent the gruesome prospect of the human race having no end.

[us.2u]

As you say Time-Traveler I believe too much indolence creates procrastination but fortunately we're not all like that or achievements we would've had accomplished none. Personaly I find it unbelieveable & sad that some would not want our race to last eternally & find that "daunting" . I look to Titan as one of the primary steps to make this dream a reality I think all projects regardless of size are very exciting & a genuine prospect of continuing our existence a fantastic & neccassary step to advancement; my own belief, I find this hardly daunting I love life! respect it & I am grateful for my own, & the idea of tomorrows children having a future.. I believe is part of our reason for being here maybe the primates were the first chapter, we're the second,& hopefully we're generating the third...us.2u

[Aardvark]

I believe is part of our reason for being here maybe the primates were the first chapter, we're the second,& hopefully we're generating the third...us.2u

 

That sounds like the teleological fallacy.

 

Anyway, looking at humans as a whole, i'm not sure they're so great, i don't consider that races pretensions to immortality daunting, instead i find them gruesome. Jerry Springer broadcast across the stars, not a future to dream of.

[us.2u]

"Whatever"

[us.2u]

If the temparature were raised on Titan by "100 degrees farenheit" unfortunately it's atmosphere would escape; but it's methane could be used for nuclear fuel to power rockets in the future...us.2u

[Ophiolite]

Anyway, looking at humans as a whole, i'm not sure they're so great, i don't consider that races pretensions to immortality daunting, instead i find them gruesome. Jerry Springer broadcast across the stars, not a future to dream of.

So, we can mark you down as a 'glass half empty' person, then.

 

TimeTraveller, I share your view on the need to move into space. If we reject Aardvark's rather bleak view of humanity then it is not only desirable, it is essential. (Though I'll go along with Aardvark, in that we shoudn't issue Jerry Springer with any shuttle tickets.)

With reference to your notion for colliding a few comets into Titan, I have long contemplated the idea of bombarding the moon with sufficient comets to give it an appreciable atmosphere, but also doing it in such a manner that the moons rotational speed was increased to a more acceptable level.

The downside of this approach is hurling tens of thousands of dinosaur killers at a point just 230,000 miles from home!

[TimeTraveler]

That sounds like the teleological fallacy.

 

Anyway, looking at humans as a whole, i'm not sure they're so great, i don't consider that races pretensions to immortality daunting, instead i find them gruesome. Jerry Springer broadcast across the stars, not a future to dream of.

 

I don't think humanity as a whole is all that great either, but aspects of it are and the rest has the potential to be good. Just because this is the way it is does not mean this is how it has to be. Change starts at the individual level.

 

I agree Ophiolite, what is a day on Titan? 16 Earth days or so?

[Ophiolite]

21.28 days. Easier to bring the moon up to speed than Titan though. I think it's about 1/5 the mass of Titan.

[TimeTraveler]

Yes Titan is huge, 2nd largets moon in our solar system.

 

Something to move on here, do you think that size has anything to do with atmospheric formation? Ganymede and Callisto our roughly the same mass and have nearly the same properties but they did not form an atmosphere.

 

Thinking of a 21 day day, reminds me of my trip to Alaska

 

What about structured bases on titan, think they could be built and humans could survive inside them without terraforming titan? Would there be a way to keep them heated enough and oxygenated enough using the atmosphere?

[Ophiolite]

 

Something to move on here' date=' do you think that size has anything to do with atmospheric formation? Ganymede and Callisto our roughly the same mass and have nearly the same properties but they did not form an atmosphere.[/color']

 

Interesting question: it isn't something I've thought about. Provisional questions I am asking myself and associated thoughts:

 

1. Mass is obviously important, but more for retention, than for formation.

 

2. Did much of the atmosphere get delivered by cometary impact during accretion? If that were the case Jupiter's stronger gravitational attraction could have drawn off a substantial number of the potential impactors for Callisto and Ganymede, unlike the case for the Saturn/Titan pairing.

 

3. What was the range of temperature of formation of the three satellites? Could this have precluded significant atmosphere formation on the Jovian satellites?

 

4. Ganymede is thought to have a very complex geological past. This might be expected to raise temperatures and promote loss of atmosphere.

 

5. Could the compositional differences account for significant differences in out-gassing? I need to check on the current presumptions as to gross geochemistry for these satellites.

 

6. The fact that the Jovian satellites are atmosphere free and Titan is not, hints at something beyond the gravitational effect noted above. I’m thinking tidal influences, radiation effects, aspects of Jupiter’s own accretion

[Ophiolite]

What about structured bases on titan, think they could be built and humans could survive inside them without terraforming titan? Would there be a way to keep them heated enough and oxygenated enough using the atmosphere?

I don't see terraforming as being practical or relevant for Titan. Let me expand on that statement. Firstly, we may need to come up with a different term to Terraforming. If Terraforming means to re-make a planet in the likeness of Earth, then I suggest that will only be possible for a planet of comparable mass {close order of magnitude} and ambient radiation. Consequently Terraforming will not be possible for Titan. I think a term such as bioforming might be useful to describe modifications that fit a planet for some life forms, for example vegetation and insects, but not for humanity without additional life support equipment (or bioengineering that changes us from being human.) On that basis we may be able to bioform Titan, but not terraform it.

However, you were considering providing life support for subtitanian bases. Lets consider some options.

I would have thought by the time we got to thinking about a base on Titan we would have licked the fusion problem. If you want some local energy, just drill a deep hole and tap the equivalent of geothermal.

The bulk of Titan is dirty ice, so we can break it down for our oxygen. We can use the methane/ethane atmosphere as chemical feedstock for plastics and polymers and carbon nano-tubes (we might as well have a space elevator).

Probably not much on hand metal wise, so we may need to move a small iron asteroid into a parking orbit for mining and metalurgical industry. But all, in all, I'd rather live on Mars, even if you don't get to see the rings close up.

[us.2u]

I have found some info in one of my reference books on Titan if anyones interseted I'll relay the info about ganymede,callisto,& titan,but your ideas of terra-forming sound excellent....or as Ophiolite says he may well come up with a more advanceful idea of colonising these planets looking forward to your forward thinking ideas sounds really exciting us.2u

[us.2u]

But even if we do master residence on the moon & Titan or a few others I thought setting up underground would be the only way initially; mind you I guess once technology has been configured & mastered these eventually will only be stepping stones of space exploratory; & colonising civilisation, extra terrestialy then hopefully future space travel will hold no limits;I believe this will be an extremely likely event looking at how far we've advanced since the dawning of civilastion of man so I guess we can forget about tomorows world but look to tomorows universe & beyond...us.2u

[TimeTraveler]

I have found some info in one of my reference books on Titan if anyones interseted I'll relay the info about ganymede,callisto,& titan,

 

Feel free to share, I am very interested in these three moons.

[us.2u]

O.K. Time Traveler time here in u.k. 20.50 I will relay details as they are written tomorrow.... us.2u

[us.2u]

Sorry about the delay Time traveler, we've just moved house & now I have to find my reference books also I came back on the internet today all info will probabaly be after christmas now I look forward until then & anyone else interested in these moons I will relay info to you...

[Guest Myth Guy]

There must be some living things which variat to accept the enviroment of Titan...I reckon those living thing must be tiny...

[Ophiolite]

Why would they have to be small? Given the very low temperatures might there not be metabolic advantages in gigantism?

 

Re: Your location.. Where? Penang, KL, Trengannu, Sabah, Sarawak, .... ?

[Martin]

I don't see terraforming as being practical or relevant for Titan. Let me expand on that statement. Firstly' date=' we may need to come up with a different term to Terraforming. If Terraforming means to re-make a planet in the likeness of Earth, then I suggest that will only be possible for a planet of comparable mass {close order of magnitude} and ambient radiation. Consequently Terraforming will not be possible for Titan. I think a term such as [i']bioforming [/i]might be useful to describe modifications that fit a planet for some life forms, for example vegetation and insects, but not for humanity without additional life support equipment (or bioengineering that changes us from being human.) On that basis we may be able to bioform Titan, but not terraform it.

However, you were considering providing life support for subtitanian bases. Lets consider some options.

I would have thought by the time we got to thinking about a base on Titan we would have licked the fusion problem. If you want some local energy, just drill a deep hole and tap the equivalent of geothermal.

The bulk of Titan is dirty ice, so we can break it down for our oxygen. We can use the methane/ethane atmosphere as chemical feedstock for plastics and polymers and carbon nano-tubes (we might as well have a space elevator).

Probably not much on hand metal wise, so we may need to move a small iron asteroid into a parking orbit for mining and metalurgical industry. But all, in all, I'd rather live on Mars, even if you don't get to see the rings close up.

 

these are interesting ideas, Ophi.

I'd speculate that Jovian moons might also have developable geothermal power

using the temperature difference between liquid water (hot)

and the surface (much colder)

 

I think that in dirty ice the "dirt" if it is rocky material may constitute a lowgrade broad-spectrum ore from which some metals (iron, aluminium) might be won. So I would not anticipate having to park an iron asteroid in orbit to support metalurgy. But you might be right.

 

My notion of a practical "space elevator" requires that the planet or moon rotate more than I fancy Titan does. I dont have any information about it but I had imagined it tidally locked to Saturn, as Luna to Earth. Do you know?

I am no expert in such matters, so any information would be welcome!

 

bioforming is a good concept

[Rasori]

Ophiolite, if the organisms are small they need less heat to heat themselves. A giant organism would need to heat up a WHOLE lot of area, and in areas with temperatures like Titan, that heat is extremely hard to come by.

[us.2u]

That's if we all accept life as we know it... basically "carbon form" but what of life if constructed differently i.e. sillicate (sillicon based) or even of compounds we are unfamiliar with. Would the heat properties for survival be entirely different then? just a thought....

[[Tycho?]]

Martin: Titan is indeed tidally locked with saturn

 

all that and more found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_%28moon%29

[Rasori]

I don't know anything about the speculations of silicon-based lifeforms, so you may be right. Even so, I was just sticking up for Myth Guy

 

Kinda off-topic, but why is it that we say carbon-based and (possiby) silicon-based lifeforms are the only possibilities? Why is it not possibly possible that there's methane-based lifeforms or hydrogen-based lifeforms?