Why do Hurricanes so resemble spiral Galaxies?

[Ronald Hyde]

I was looking at a picture of Hurricane Issac in the Wikipedia and I was struck yet again by how much they resemble the typical double spiral galaxy.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Isaac_Aug_28_2012_1630Z.jpg

 

Remembering well Feynman's Dictum that the same equations always have the same solutions, what equation do galaxies and hurricanes have in common?

[imatfaal]

Conservation of Angular Momentum?

[Ronald Hyde]

I had to find the answer to this myself. They both solve the equations related to the 'principle of maximum work' in quantum thermodynamics.

The resistance in an electrical circuit solves them too. Which explains why, when Feynman tried to solve the resistance problem with the principle

of least action he failed. There must be equivalent statements for capacitors and inductors.

[pantheory]

I had to find the answer to this myself. They both solve the equations related to the 'principle of maximum work' in quantum thermodynamics.

The resistance in an electrical circuit solves them too. Which explains why, when Feynman tried to solve the resistance problem with the principle

of least action he failed. There must be equivalent statements for capacitors and inductors.

In my own cosmological model there are similar vortex aether mechanics and fluid dynamics related to a rapidly spinning storm to the slow rotation rates of spiral galaxies. In the present standard model I believe spiral galaxy appearances are accordingly believed to be a function of dark matter orbiting the galaxy with a transfer of its momentum to the stars via gravity.

 

Plasma cosmology, on the other hand, proposes possibilities of orbital flows of intra-galactic clouds of matter reacting and accordingly creating magnetic influences reinforcing the rotating influences of the background cloud matter accordingly having a relationship with the rotating central black hole.

//

Edited September 11, 2012 by pantheory

[imatfaal]

I had to find the answer to this myself. They both solve the equations related to the 'principle of maximum work' in quantum thermodynamics.

The resistance in an electrical circuit solves them too. Which explains why, when Feynman tried to solve the resistance problem with the principle

of least action he failed. There must be equivalent statements for capacitors and inductors.

 

You will have to elucidate that Ronald please. I have the principle of maximum work as a (outdated?) thermodynamical conclusion of chemical systems - that, very roughly, during an isolated chemical reaction the maximum amount of stored energy will be released. I really cannot see how that creates rotational movement. I find it very hard to credit that conservation of angular momentum is not the law of physics that bridges the gap between the scale of the dust devil - via the hurricane - up to the spiral galaxy

[Ronald Hyde]

I have the principle of maximum work as a (outdated?) thermodynamical conclusion of chemical systems - that, very roughly, during an isolated chemical reaction the maximum amount of stored energy will be released. I really cannot see how that creates rotational movement. I find it very hard to credit that conservation of angular momentum is not the law of physics that bridges the gap between the scale of the dust devil - via the hurricane - up to the spiral galaxy

 

I can't believe that you would say that about this elegant and powerful theory that some of the best minds in physics and mathematics have contributed too. I'm starting to

think that computer people are smarter, or at least wiser than physics people. Computer people would never throw out anything that works, they would just improve and use it

in a larger system. Look at the C language and Fortran, Forty and sixty years old, and still going strong. On the other hand look at string theory, thirty and hasn't fathered any

babies yet.

 

It applies very nicely, thank you, to any entropy driven system with constraints, in this case the local conservation laws. If the entropy is continuously 'supplied' it will become cyclic in time. Perfect for describing dust devils ( must add that to my list of examples ) hurricanes and galaxies.

[Wilmot McCutchen]

Swirl is common to spiral galaxies and hurricanes. Shear rate ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shear_rate ) is the frequency of the rotation, and may be the common equation you seek. While momentum is always conserved, linear momentum can dissipate into angular momentum (Kolmogorov scaling), and swirl can collapse, converting angular momentum to linear momentum. See Shtern and Hussain "Collapse, Symmetry Breaking, and Hysteresis in Swirling Flows," http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.fluid.31.1.537?journalCode=fluid

 

Axial jets of matter out of the galaxy center have no satisfactory explanation and seem to contradict the hypothesis of the all-devouring black hole. They may be caused by collapse of galaxy swirl so angular momentum becomes linear momentum escaping the black hole. That is just a conjecture based on how tornadoes are caused by swirl collapsing on touchdown (the vortex-wall interaction, see the Shtern and Hussain article linked above.

[EMField]

http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/302l/lectures/node73.html

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

pantheory and EMField, one LAST warning that hijacking threads to support or advertise your pet theories is not permitted.

[imatfaal]

I can't believe that you would say that about this elegant and powerful theory that some of the best minds in physics and mathematics have contributed too. I'm starting to

think that computer people are smarter, or at least wiser than physics people. Computer people would never throw out anything that works, they would just improve and use it

in a larger system. Look at the C language and Fortran, Forty and sixty years old, and still going strong. On the other hand look at string theory, thirty and hasn't fathered any

babies yet.

 

It applies very nicely, thank you, to any entropy driven system with constraints, in this case the local conservation laws. If the entropy is continuously 'supplied' it will become cyclic in time. Perfect for describing dust devils ( must add that to my list of examples ) hurricanes and galaxies.

 

Rather than waxing lyrical on computer languages could you perhaps provide either an explanation or a link.

[Ronald Hyde]

Rather than waxing lyrical on computer languages could you perhaps provide either an explanation or a link.

 

Actualy there isn't very much on the principal of least work, but it belongs to the area of quantum statistical dynamics, and that's what I meant to refer to.

But it's exactly what is needed for the hurricane and galaxy problem, to get the most work out a given amount of entropy change, and keep driving it till it develops periodic behavior. QSD itself is a pretty obscure field. The Wiki has a good piece on it.

 

Swirl is common to spiral galaxies and hurricanes. Shear rate ( http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Shear_rate ) is the frequency of the rotation, and may be the common equation you seek. While momentum is always conserved, linear momentum can dissipate into angular momentum (Kolmogorov scaling), and swirl can collapse, converting angular momentum to linear momentum. See Shtern and Hussain "Collapse, Symmetry Breaking, and Hysteresis in Swirling Flows," http://www.annualrev...urnalCode=fluid

 

Axial jets of matter out of the galaxy center have no satisfactory explanation and seem to contradict the hypothesis of the all-devouring black hole. They may be caused by collapse of galaxy swirl so angular momentum becomes linear momentum escaping the black hole. That is just a conjecture based on how tornadoes are caused by swirl collapsing on touchdown (the vortex-wall interaction, see the Shtern and Hussain article linked above.

 

This is quite interesting. When people look out at the arms of the galaxy, they see fresh Hydrogen streaming into it. So it almost looks like the 'central object', I hate to call it

a 'black hole', might have some way of recycling going on. And the Aurora mechanism seems more analogous to a tornado.

[imatfaal]

Actualy there isn't very much on the principal of least work, but it belongs to the area of quantum statistical dynamics, and that's what I meant to refer to.

But it's exactly what is needed for the hurricane and galaxy problem, to get the most work out a given amount of entropy change, and keep driving it till it develops periodic behavior. QSD itself is a pretty obscure field. The Wiki has a good piece on it.

 

 

Ronald - principal of least work or principle of maximum work (you have mentioned both)? Are you saying that you are managing to relate Quantum Statistics Mechanics to the macroscopic formation of weather systems and galaxies?

[MigL]

If you actually READ the piece on Wiki, it states that the 'principle of maximum work' was developed by some French chemist. It subsequently was abandoned because of too many exceptons to the principle. It was further developed by Gibbs into the 'free energy' concept, but not in its original form. It states, in its modified form, and I quote from the Wiki article 'For all thermodynamic processes between the same initial and final state, the delivery of work is a maximum for a reversible process.'

 

Note that it says REVERSIBLE process.

No large scale ( macroscopic ) statistical process is reversible. So for an irreversible process, like a tornado/hurricane or a spiral galaxy this principle has no application whatsoever.

 

I suggest you listen to Imatfaal and seriously consider the only viable alternative, conservation of angular momentum.

[Ronald Hyde]

If you actually READ the piece on Wiki, it states that the 'principle of maximum work' was developed by some French chemist. It subsequently was abandoned because of too many exceptons to the principle. It was further developed by Gibbs into the 'free energy' concept, but not in its original form. It states, in its modified form, and I quote from the Wiki article 'For all thermodynamic processes between the same initial and final state, the delivery of work is a maximum for a reversible process.'

 

Note that it says REVERSIBLE process.

No large scale ( macroscopic ) statistical process is reversible. So for an irreversible process, like a tornado/hurricane or a spiral galaxy this principle has no application whatsoever.

 

I suggest you listen to Imatfaal and seriously consider the only viable alternative, conservation of angular momentum.

OK guys let's get this straightened out. First, I meant to say the 'principal of maximum work'. Just because it's defined for reversible processes doesn't mean that

the definition can't be extended to include irreversible processes. Just off the top of my head I can think of some such that you have every one seen. The meandering of

a river is a driven irreversible process that would be very well described by it. Another would be the radiation of light be the Sun. I'm sure there are 'too many exceptions

to the principal' because it has not been properly combined with the other theories of Nature. And there are way too many 'theories of quantum thermodynamics and

statistics' because no one has bothered to see how similar they are and reduce them to a single theory. But even then they need to be combined with all the other

theories of Nature to make everything work.

 

I tell you guys that Nature is a logical whole, and if you disregard some of her working principals or think that they 'go out of fashion', you're missing the boat.

 

Swirl is common to spiral galaxies and hurricanes. Shear rate ( http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Shear_rate ) is the frequency of the rotation, and may be the common equation you seek. While momentum is always conserved, linear momentum can dissipate into angular momentum (Kolmogorov scaling), and swirl can collapse, converting angular momentum to linear momentum. See Shtern and Hussain "Collapse, Symmetry Breaking, and Hysteresis in Swirling Flows," http://www.annualrev...urnalCode=fluid

 

Axial jets of matter out of the galaxy center have no satisfactory explanation and seem to contradict the hypothesis of the all-devouring black hole. They may be caused by collapse of galaxy swirl so angular momentum becomes linear momentum escaping the black hole. That is just a conjecture based on how tornadoes are caused by swirl collapsing on touchdown (the vortex-wall interaction, see the Shtern and Hussain article linked above.

 

Shear is at least part of the answer. Pretty much just have to write the correct commutation relations for it and plug it into the rest of the picture.

[Wilmot McCutchen]

For macro-scale irreversible processes, the Constructal Law (cf. Bejan, Design in Nature (2012)) might be a more useful principle. "For a finite-size system to persist in time (to live), it must evolve in such a way that it provides easier access to the imposed currents that flow through it." Area-preserving (no pressure drop) branched vascular networks are Nature's way of maximizing efficiency.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Wilmot McCutchen

[Ronald Hyde]

For macro-scale irreversible processes, the Constructal Law (cf. Bejan, Design in Nature (2012)) might be a more useful principle. "For a finite-size system to persist in time (to live), it must evolve in such a way that it provides easier access to the imposed currents that flow through it." Area-preserving (no pressure drop) branched vascular networks are Nature's way of maximizing efficiency.

 

Everything you've brought up is just spot on. That conclusion is exactly what I was coming to. I was thinking about living processes, Chlorophyll, Heme, Oxygen, triple phosphate,

and how easy they would be to put together to make life. Scenario that I see is an atmosphere of carbon dioxide, methane and nitrogen, and moisture too, with water in liquid, vapor and ice form, including snow. Snow is needed because it catalyses the interaction between those ingredients and UV light to convert them into more biologically useful materials. And no ozone layer too, as there would be no free Oxygen. There might be a Nitrogen Oxide or Cyanogen layer in place of the Ozone, which would add even more.

 

One thing that I see is that the Color Algebra of the strong interaction is propagated down through the scheme of things so that the 'imposed currents' you mentioned are actually Color Currents, and that is why brightly colored resonant compounds like the ones mentioned are important, they provide the access to the most important currents of all, Entropy and Energy. And the colors we see are not just something our mind has invented, they are built into the scheme of things at every level. It just all fits together so beautifully.

[MigL]

You are the one who said to check Wiki for an explanation of the principle in one of your previous posts. And by _that_ definition, it does not apply to hurricanes or spiral galaxies, even if there are exceptions.

 

And the 'colours' of the strong interaction have nothing to do with actual colours, they are just labels, or would you care to explain what the 'strange' label means ??

 

You and Wilmot are pulling laws and principles out of your a##es and applying them to a phenomenon for which a perfectly viable, PHYSICAL, simple explanation exists. Stop complicating the issue with laws and principles which are not fundamental, may or may not apply, and even if they do, not necessarily all the time; ever hear of Occam's razor ??

 

Or would yo prefer the K.I.S.S. principle ??

Edited September 14, 2012 by MigL

[Ronald Hyde]

You are the one who said to check Wiki for an explanation of the principle in one of your previous posts. And by _that_ definition, it does not apply to hurricanes or spiral galaxies, even if there are exceptions.

 

And the 'colours' of the strong interaction have nothing to do with actual colours, they are just labels, or would you care to explain what the 'strange' label means ??

 

You and Wilmot are pulling laws and principles out of your a##es and applying them to a phenomenon for which a perfectly viable, PHYSICAL, simple explanation exists. Stop complicating the issue with laws and principles which are not fundamental, may or may not apply, and even if they do, not necessarily all the time; ever hear of Occam's razor ??

 

Or would yo prefer the K.I.S.S. principle ??

 

Wilmot has a very deep understanding of what is involved, he is the only one besides myself who seems to. For my own purposes the topic is completed, I have taken every thing

I need from it, thanks you Wilmot, and incorporated it into a larger picture. And in the process solved the pesky problem of defining 'free energy' in a thermodynamical system.

Way to go!

[JohnStu]

doesn't look similar to me. Lots of things look alike if one looks at it with blurry vision.

[vampares]

"what equation do galaxies and hurricanes have in common?"

 

The flat aspect of the hurricane is what make it look flat. It is a very large cloud. The center is low pressure. The air entering the eye keeps the thing off the ground.

 

The spiral pattern fiddle head look is very common to weather patterns that are "overtaking" as opposed to being pushed forward or falling over.

 

The fact that it is spinning, the tail drags.

 

The eye of the hurricane always follows the sea level surface temperature. In this way you can predict the path of the hurricane. The sea level surface temperature determines what type of hurricane it will be. The colder ones don't make direct land fall all that often. Probably because of the land temperature.

 

Wiki's Hubble classification system

"An E indicates a type of elliptical galaxy; an S is a spiral; and SB is a barred-spiral galaxy"

You know these things don't move a million miles an hour. The S0 seems like it might be and S a,b or c on its side. The spiral-barred kind of looks like its gyration is out of kilter.

 

Could be overwhelming central dominance. I've never seen an hurricane with two eyes. Nothing here has twin peaks either.

 

from the noaa visualization laboratory Edited September 18, 2012 by vampares

[Ronald Hyde]

"what equation do galaxies and hurricanes have in common?"

 

The flat aspect of the hurricane is what make it look flat. It is a very large cloud. The center is low pressure. The air entering the eye keeps the thing off the ground.

 

The spiral pattern fiddle head look is very common to weather patterns that are "overtaking" as opposed to being pushed forward or falling over.

 

The fact that it is spinning, the tail drags.

 

The eye of the hurricane always follows the sea level surface temperature. In this way you can predict the path of the hurricane. The sea level surface temperature determines what type of hurricane it will be. The colder ones don't make direct land fall all that often. Probably because of the land temperature.

 

Wiki's Hubble classification system

"An E indicates a type of elliptical galaxy; an S is a spiral; and SB is a barred-spiral galaxy"

You know these things don't move a million miles an hour. The S0 seems like it might be and S a,b or c on its side. The spiral-barred kind of looks like its gyration is out of kilter.

 

Could be overwhelming central dominance. I've never seen an hurricane with two eyes. Nothing here has twin peaks either.

 

from the noaa visualization laboratory

 

This is beautiful, something you can put into equations, that I like very much. I'm getting a really good picture of how it goes together. You and Wilmot have no trouble

at all seeing how it all goes together. Of course we understand that Galaxies are the builders of worlds and Hurricanes are the Destroyers of Worlds. But simple logic requires

that the existence of one implies the existence of the other.

 

Thank you again for this wonderful information.

[pantheory]

This is beautiful, something you can put into equations, that I like very much. I'm getting a really good picture of how it goes together. You and Wilmot have no trouble at all seeing how it all goes together. Of course we understand that Galaxies are the builders of worlds and Hurricanes are the Destroyers of Worlds. But simple logic requires that the existence of one implies the existence of the other.

 

Thank you again for this wonderful information.

Do you have any particular equations or method in mind? Vertex equations, fluid dynamics, a combination, etc.? I'd like to try to formulate the equations myself but haven't decided the best way to start. The equation forms discussed so far seem unrealistic to me.

//

Edited September 18, 2012 by pantheory

[Ronald Hyde]

Do you have any particular equations or method in mind? Vertex equations, fluid dynamics, a combination, etc.? I'd like to try to formulate the equations myself but haven't decided the best way to start. The equation forms discussed so far seem unrealistic to me.

//

The equations are not yet there but some of the parts of them are. I don't work that way simply because I can't find any real instance where a successful theory was developed

before the physical picture was drawn. Faraday >> Maxwell, not Maxwell >> Faraday. So when I start I work as close to the physical picture as I possibly can. And I must say I'm

getting a lot of good help, some people just intuitively see the connections here and have really helped out. We just might pull this thing off, or a least start a big ball rolling.

[pantheory]

The equations are not yet there but some of the parts of them are. I don't work that way simply because I can't find any real instance where a successful theory was developed before the physical picture was drawn. Faraday >> Maxwell, not Maxwell >> Faraday. So when I start I work as close to the physical picture as I possibly can. And I must say I'm getting a lot of good help, some people just intuitively see the connections here and have really helped out. We just might pull this thing off, or a least start a big ball rolling.

Yeah, I think I could find such an equation(s) but was hoping somebody had a head start. I would start with vortex equations, and if problems arise try fluid dynamics. I expect the bottom line basis for such equations will be a fluid aether.

//

Edited September 19, 2012 by pantheory

[Ronald Hyde]

Yeah, I think I could find such an equation(s) but was hoping somebody had a head start. I would start with vortex equations, and if problems arise try fluid dynamics. I expect the bottom line basis for such equations will be a fluid aether.

//

We're getting it together here, I already had a framework for the answer to fit into, and the nice folks that helped me did a wonderful job in answering the question.

I'll write it up shortly and everyone can see the big picture and how things fit. Very well I might add.