Consequences of No God...

[Mr Rayon]

If it were proven that God doesn't exist, would the world become a better place?

 

What are some possible changes to society/people's attitutes towards one another if their belief/hope of the existence of God would disappear?

 

Is it desirable to make people not believe in God?

 

Why are atheists so determined to prove there is no God/s to the theists?

 

Furthermore why is there so much debate/discussion about "God" in a scientific forum such as SFN?

What's the big deal all about?

[Iota]

I'll say firstly, even if all gods were disproven it wouldn't stop people believing in them. But if it did:

 

The world wouldn't be a better place... overall, because religion isn't the root cause of all of our problems, therefore eradicating it wouldn't solve the errors of humanity. For example, tendencies such as greed, violence and such, would still exist; territorial disputes, poverty, war would still all exist.

 

However, there could be greater cooperation between countries and less restraints to scientific advancement in all countries world wide. Less needless killings based on religious scriptures, based on nothing more than belief.

 

I think Atheists (in general) view religion as a burden on the world; more significantly, an out-dated one. I can see why, personally. Partly also, because we're in the twenty-first century and religion still influences politics and billions of people's lives. In most primary schools children are still practically forced to believe in a god, so it's important to discuss these occurrences and, for example, their psychological effects. Its ethical implication, e.g. why should they be forced to hear beliefs? Especially at a young age, susceptible to believe anything. They need to make their own minds, we are supposedly 'free' countries, after all.

 

In some areas scientific evidence is opposed by religious educational systems and replaced with beliefs (creationism etc.) which just seems ludicrous, to say the least. I think for anyone who doesn't believe in a god they tend to question why- a lot, because there is no reason, essentially, for anyone to believe; there's no evidence. If you was born in India you might be Hindu, born in America you might of been Christian, born in Afghanistan you might have been Muslim, and so on...

 

 

From my very short time being here, there seems to have been a mix of people asking questions about god: some pondering their own reasons for believing and getting some outside perspective; others wanting to know why people are Theists because they are curious or they think it's absurd.

[ydoaPs]

Why are atheists so determined to prove there is no God/s to the theists?

 

When's the last time an atheist knocked on your door and tried to convert you to reality?

[doG]

If it were proven that God doesn't exist, would the world become a better place?

You can't prove something doesn't exist.

 

Why are atheists so determined to prove there is no God/s to the theists?

I'm not determined to prove there is no God. You can't prove that anyhow. What I am determined to do is to point out there is no credible evidence in support of the existence of any god(s) and that faith is a flaw in one's ability to reason rationally. People should not believe in things like gods, santa clauses, leprechuans, etc. just because others claim they exist. They should be skeptics and seek proof of such claims without buying into them on faith. Faith is a mental disorder!

[Jaden]

If it were proven that God doesn't exist, would the world become a better place?

Most people would probably be unable to understand this proof, and continue to believe anyway. However, if people did stop believing in God(s) there would be a lot of changes, both positive and negative, to society.. ie there would probably be less wars and less discrimination, but we (humanity as a whole) would eventually lose our moral compass and probably become more self-centered. In my opinion, this would make the world a worse place to live in overall.

 

What are some possible changes to society/people's attitutes towards one another if their belief/hope of the existence of God would disappear?

The Christian bible has been the moral guide of western civilization for centuries. If people were to lose faith in its authority, then the moral standards of society would gradually decay. People would no longer obey the moral teaching of Jesus, "love your neighbor as yourself." Governments could make laws of course, but no human authority could ever match the authority of an all-knowing, all-powerful God.

 

Why are atheists so determined to prove there is no God/s to the theists?

It depends on the individual. Some probably think they are helping people by "correcting" their "false beliefs." Others (such as Richard Dawkins) try to make a career of it. There could be numerous other reasons.

 

Furthermore why is there so much debate/discussion about "God" in a scientific forum such as SFN?

What's the big deal all about?

Most theists (at least the Christians) wish to convince others that God is real, because they believe that they are saving other people from punishment for their sins, by allowing them the opportunity to repent. Atheists disagree with the theists, generally thinking that belief in God is foolish and/or pointless, and so they usually wish to debate the points made by theists.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Jaden

[John Cuthber]

Most people would probably be unable to understand this proof, and continue to believe anyway. However, if people did stop believing in God(s) there would be a lot of changes, both positive and negative, to society.. ie there would probably be less wars and less discrimination, but we (humanity as a whole) would eventually lose our moral compass and probably become more self-centered. In my opinion, this would make the world a worse place to live in overall.

 

 

The Christian bible has been the moral guide of western civilization for centuries. If people were to lose faith in its authority, then the moral standards of society would gradually decay. People would no longer obey the moral teaching of Jesus, "love your neighbor as yourself." Governments could make laws of course, but no human authority could ever match the authority of an all-knowing, all-powerful God.

 

 

It depends on the individual. Some probably think they are helping people by "correcting" their "false beliefs." Others (such as Richard Dawkins) try to make a career of it. There could be numerous other reasons.

 

 

Most theists (at least the Christians) wish to convince others that God is real, because they believe that they are saving other people from punishment for their sins, by allowing them the opportunity to repent. Atheists disagree with the theists, generally thinking that belief in God is foolish and/or pointless, and so they usually wish to debate the points made by theists.

 

Why is it that Christians think that their morality comes from a book that tells then to kill children who are cheeky to their parents?

As for "but we (humanity as a whole) would eventually lose our moral compass"

Remember, if it was proven that there was no God, then any morality that we have comes from ourselves (because there's nowhere else it could have come from).

religion claims to be the source of it but there's no evidence supporting their claim.

"Governments could make laws of course, but no human authority could ever match the authority of an all-knowing, all-powerful God."

Yes they can because religion's current rules are not based on the authority of a God- He doesn't exist.

Edited September 6, 2012 by John Cuthber

[Jaden]

Why is it that Christians think that their morality comes from a book that tells then to kill children who are cheeky to their parents?

The old testament law is very draconian - it shows that even the smallest of sins are still sins, and are worthy of punishment. It shows us that we can never be worthy of God. The new testament, however, teaches mercy and forgiveness. (for example in John 8 1-12.) Jesus does not condemn sinners before their time of judgement, and neither should we.

 

As for "but we (humanity as a whole) would eventually lose our moral compass"

Remember, if it was proven that there was no God, then any morality that we have comes from ourselves (because there's nowhere else it could have come from).

Yes, that's right. If one does not believe in a God, then morality would be decided by the individual. However, people can have very different perceptions of morality, and what one person might consider to be a heinous act may be considered perfectly ok by somebody else. We as individuals do sometimes need a moral guide. For most people, that guidance is provided by the general consensus of society. The general consensus of our society, currently, is strongly influenced by Christian traditions and principles. However, if religion were to be eliminated by science, then society as a whole would lose it's moral guide. With the removal of the order which was provided by Christianity, and a collection of differing individual opinions now shaping "morality", who could know the outcome?

 

Yes they can because religion's current rules are not based on the authority of a God- He doesn't exist.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point You are entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean that it is correct, and this thread is not the place to debate the issue.

Anyway, I was referring more to the idea of an all knowing God, and the effect that that can have on people. If someone believes that God is watching over them, then this belief will surely be more powerful than any law set by a government.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Jaden

[ydoaPs]

The Christian bible has been the moral guide of western civilization for centuries. If people were to lose faith in its authority, then the moral standards of society would gradually decay.

 

You're absolutely correct; western civilization goes by the Bible. That's why rape victims are either forced to marry their rapists or murdered, you can sell your daughter into the sex market, and full on slavery is legit. They've not ever actually believed what the Bible says on morality; they just believe the Bible says what they believe on morality. Most people haven't even read the damn thing.

 

If it were proven that God doesn't exist, would the world become a better place?

 

There IS an extremely strong correlation between secularism and just about every measure of societal health, so maybe.

 

The new testament, however, teaches mercy and forgiveness.

 

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."-Jesus (Matthew 10:34-35)

 

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."-James 2:24

 

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."-Matthew 5:17-21

 

"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."-Matthew 19:13-22

 

But, hey, since when did Christians care what the Bible actually says?

 

You can't prove something doesn't exist.

 

Sure you can. Proving negatives is the backbone of science. It usually depends on a logical trick called Modus Tollens:

 

p -> q

~q

Therefore, ~p

 

That's what we do every time we do an experiment. All you have to do is set up an "experiment" of sorts and then make the proper observation.

 

If god_x exists, then state of affairs y would be exemplified.

State of affairs y is not exemplified.

Therefore, god_x does not exist.

 

The thing is, "god" is such a wibbly-wobbly word that it is vague to the point of being meaningless. Once we narrow down to specific gods, though, it becomes pretty easy to falsify gods.

 

This argument uses a moral scale. 0 is perfectly immoral and 10 is perfectly moral(humans are 5). S is the set of all possible worlds which is populated only by beings greater than 5 on the scale.

 

The argument:

 

(1) God is omnipotent

 

(2) So, it is possible for God to actualize a member of S

 

(3) God is omniscient

 

(4) So, if it is possible for God to actualize a member of S, then God knows that He can actualize a member of S

 

(5) So, God knows that He can actualize a member of S

 

(6) God is morally perfect

 

(7) A morally perfect being, by definition, should attempt to maximize the likelihood of moral goodness and minimize the likelihood of moral evil in the world

 

(8) If God knows He can actualize a member of S, then every world in which God exists is a member of S

 

(9) Therefore, every world in which God exists is a member of S

 

(10) Therefore, if God exists in the actual world then the actual world is a member of S

 

(11) The actual world is not a member of S

 

(12) Therefore, God does not exist

 

I know someone is ripping their hair out right now screaming "YOU FORGOT ABOUT FREE WILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!". No, no I didn't. Free will and moral perfection are either entirely compatible, or you've got an equally big problem. If Free Will is such a good thing that a morally perfect agent would install it, it's goodness must override all of the evil of the Earth. A Perfect Being, then, should have free will. God has free will AND a morally perfect nature. Screaming "free will" doesn't absolve you of the problem of moral nature as our choices are already limited by other aspects of our nature.

 

We as individuals do sometimes need a moral guide.

 

That's what The Doctor is for.

[John Cuthber]

The old testament law is very draconian - it shows that even the smallest of sins are still sins, and are worthy of punishment. It shows us that we can never be worthy of God. The new testament, however, teaches mercy and forgiveness. (for example in John 8 1-12.) Jesus does not condemn sinners before their time of judgement, and neither should we.

 

 

Yes, that's right. If one does not believe in a God, then morality would be decided by the individual. However, people can have very different perceptions of morality, and what one person might consider to be a heinous act may be considered perfectly ok by somebody else. We as individuals do sometimes need a moral guide. For most people, that guidance is provided by the general consensus of society. The general consensus of our society, currently, is strongly influenced by Christian traditions and principles. However, if religion were to be eliminated by science, then society as a whole would lose it's moral guide. With the removal of the order which was provided by Christianity, and a collection of differing individual opinions now shaping "morality", who could know the outcome?

 

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point You are entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean that it is correct, and this thread is not the place to debate the issue.

Anyway, I was referring more to the idea of an all knowing God, and the effect that that can have on people. If someone believes that God is watching over them, then this belief will surely be more powerful than any law set by a government.

 

Did you read the first post?

For the sake of this thread there is no God.

Anything that ever was attributed to Him is, therefore, miss-attributed.

He didn't exist so He didn't inspire the bible (or any other book)

It was written by people.

Those people understood (at some level) the ideas of right and wrong and they did so without a God.

so your jokey little remark "I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point "

Is clearly nonsense.

In this thread, when I say there is no God, I'm right. If you don't agree then you are wrong.

 

 

You also seem to fail to realise how the world currently works "Yes, that's right. If one does not believe in a God, then morality would be decided by the individual. However, people can have very different perceptions of morality, and what one person might consider to be a heinous act may be considered perfectly ok by somebody else"

That's what happens now.

That's why people kill in the name of a God who commands them not to.

And it's a lot easier to justify killing another human if you are working under the delusion that God told you to do it.

[A Tripolation]

That's what The Doctor is for.

 

At the risk of bringing down the mod-wrath for being off-topic, allow me to say this: The Doctor is one of the most morally deranged beings I've ever seen. No second chances. When provoked, The Doctor retaliates with overwhelming force, a la Ender's Game. Who is he to hold everyone else to his standards? Why is he the arbitrator of justice. He does what he wants, when he wants. He is vain, selfish, hedonistic, and amoral until morality suits him.

 

On-Topic: As a Christian, I would like to say that religion prevents people from being immoral. But it doesn't. I think that the world would be pretty much the same, except a tad more scientifically advanced.

Edited September 6, 2012 by A Tripolation

[iNow]

Who is "The Doctor" in the exchange above? I though it was a Dr. Who reference...

[A Tripolation]

I thought it was as well, iNow.

[ydoaPs]

The Doctor is one of the most morally deranged beings I've ever seen. No second chances. When provoked, The Doctor retaliates with overwhelming force, a la Ender's Game. Who is he to hold everyone else to his standards? Why is he the arbitrator of justice. He does what he wants, when he wants. He is vain, selfish, hedonistic, and amoral until morality suits him.

 

I'm having trouble seeing how that is much different from YHWH.

 

Who is "The Doctor" in the exchange above? I though it was a Dr. Who reference...

 

Indeed it was. If you're going to base your morality on a fictional character, I'd much rather it be The Doctor than YHWH.

[doG]

Proving negatives is the backbone of science. It usually depends on a logical trick called Modus Tollens....

Not really. That is a valid argument in propositional logic but that's not really physical science, it's philosophy. We see only a minuscule portion of the Universe so I don't think we can conclude, as fact, that things do not exist in the vast majority of the Universe that we cannot observe by using logic tricks and thought experiments.

[ydoaPs]

Not really. That is a valid argument in propositional logic but that's not really physical science, it's philosophy.

 

Yes, really. That's what happens every time we do an experiment. That's why experiments produce falsifiability.

[John Cuthber]

What can or can't be proven is beside the point here.

For the sake of discussion, it is proved (or demonstrated at some arbitrarily large probability say big enough to convince nearly everyone*) that God does not exist.

 

Once you get rid of the idea of Him there's a whole lot of growing up for the human race to do.

We would have to accept that we are responsible for our own species' fate.

At that point a whole lot of things. like going forth and multiplying or killing in the name of religion stop being remotely defensible.

 

 

*("Nearly everyone" will do: there are some people who think they are Christ - we don't pay them a lot of attention)

[w0rld]

When's the last time an atheist knocked on your door and tried to convert you to reality?

 

 

I was once on a forum when someone posed the question why most hackers are atheists. What followed was an onslaught of anit-christ remarks almost 15 pages long. Some people, including me, tried prove the existence of God to these people, and were hopelessly outmanned. So, In conclusion:

-There are a lot of atheist hackers

 

-Don't try to convert people on forums,

 

-And you don't find atheists, atheists find you.

[Moontanman]

I was once on a forum when someone posed the question why most hackers are atheists. What followed was an onslaught of anit-christ remarks almost 15 pages long. Some people, including me, tried prove the existence of God to these people, and were hopelessly outmanned. So, In conclusion:

 

It's more likely that you were hopelessly out gunned by a lack of empirical evidence... One person with empirical evidence of god could defeat an entire army of atheists trying to assert there is no god...

 

-There are a lot of atheist hackers

 

I see no reason to assume a hacker is theist or atheist but simply stating there are a lot of them is as informative as saying there are a lot of theist hackers..

 

-Don't try to convert people on forums,

 

I agree, it would be nice if theists stopped doing that...

 

-And you don't find atheists, atheists find you.

 

How so? I've never had an atheist knock on my door looking to bring me the good news...

Edited September 8, 2012 by Moontanman