Why do some believe that secularism persecutes Christians?

[jeskill]

The Friendly Atheist linked recently linked to this article by Jan Jaben-Eilon about jews being harassed by their Christian friends. The first paragraph:

 

 

It's not easy growing up Jewish in the Bible Belt, although Jewish youth report that their Christian classmates in public high schools can often be caring - in their own way. "A lot of classmates said they'd pray for me since I was going to hell because I'm Jewish," said Hanna, now a college sophomore. "Once I was asked if I had horns or had shaved them down," recalls Jane, who attended a different public high school in the metropolitan Atlanta area. "The kids weren't mean. One said that it was so cool that I was Jewish, and asked if I was thinking about converting. Her tone changed, though, when I told her I wouldn't convert."

This was timely to me because there I have a few family members on facebook who are convinced they, as Christians, are persecuted by secularism. I have a hard time understanding why. It seems to me that secularism is something that allows us the freedom to have our own beliefs.

So, my question: why do some (not all) Christians believe that secularism persecutes Christians?

[John Cuthber]

I think you should ask them. However, my guess is that someone lied.

[Phi for All]

Like most issues, probably no one thing is responsible. Personally, I think it's partly because some people assume that all morality stems from religious beliefs, particularly their religious beliefs, so a state with no religious basis (or the wrong one) is immoral. I also think Christianity in the US is threatened by the differences within the religion itself. It's not always easy to defend a belief when other Christians may not believe exactly as you do.

 

Secularism might seem to deny that the faith you hold is valid since it puts it on a par with other, possibly conflicting beliefs. I think most strong believers also hold that someone has to be right and the rest are wrong. To say that all beliefs are equal or that religion shouldn't bias government violates the sacred aspect most of those beliefs shelter under.

 

And lastly, I think strong believers tend to think of secularism as godlessness. Rather than acknowledging that the state can't be biased by ANY religion, many confuse this with a direct shunning of the principles of their particular religion.

[jeskill]

And lastly, I think strong believers tend to think of secularism as godlessness.

 

 

Yeah, this is probably a biggie.

 

 

 

 

[Phi for All]

Yeah, this is probably a biggie.

It also just occurred to me that secularism also represents an enormous amount of people (the state) who are choosing not to be governed by religion (the church) but in a way that doesn't really call for defensiveness. It's more vague and ambiguous, and could therefore be more scary to some because it doesn't support your position or refute it.

 

Does that make sense? Like someone approaching you from the dark on the street but not really menacing you overtly. You're unsure whether to continue past them or get ready to fight.

[imatfaal]

I think many religious believers cling to the delusion that they are persecuted, discriminated against, and generally treated badly by secularists because of the fairly friendly but dismissive attitude to the "mysteries" of religion. The secular state and individual may care greatly about the substantive impact of a religion (the pro-lifers, the female retro-emancipation, etc.); but, on the whole, the actual mystical spiritual side is treated with disdain and not even worth arguing with. Being ignored and dismissed, especially by one you have set up as an enemy is very frustrating; thus the least little slight is blown out of all proportion to justify the believers' need to be persecuted for their beliefs rather than criticised for their actions.

 

I think Christians, in the UK, (and possibly American and Commonwealth etc) also have a second self-justification for their cries of persecution. It's a deep seated and possibly even unconscious clannishness - they feel that there should be a preference, even by secular states and individuals, for the religion that historically dominated the racial, cultural power-base of the country. There is a mostly unspoken feeling amongst many Christians in the UK that secularists and even atheists from a white Anglo-saxon protestant background should treat Christians with a greater respect and forbearance than those from other religions. They then recognise that they are treated equally - and see this as persecution, as they believe they should be treated better. (note The UK is, of course, not a secular state; although it is about as close as a nation with an established state religion can get to being secular).

[Ronald Hyde]

Well, to be quite frank, I think they've been told to believe it by their pastors. If they hadn't been told it they wouldn't say it themselves.

[jeskill]

I think many religious believers cling to the delusion that they are persecuted, discriminated against, and generally treated badly by secularists because of the fairly friendly but dismissive attitude to the "mysteries" of religion.

 

But, a secularist isn't necessarily agnostic or atheist, they're just someone who believes that religious and governmental institutions should be separated. I know a number of people who are both secular and religious, which would suggest they would not be dismissive of the mysteries of religion.

 

There is a mostly unspoken feeling amongst many Christians in the UK that secularists and even atheists from a white Anglo-saxon protestant background should treat Christians with a greater respect and forbearance than those from other religions. They then recognise that they are treated equally - and see this as persecution, as they believe they should be treated better. (note The UK is, of course, not a secular state; although it is about as close as a nation with an established state religion can get to being secular).

 

I feel that sentiment in the US sometimes. Oddly enough, Canada is not technically a secular state, but seems to me to be more secular than the US. I think it's because multiculturalism as an ideology is drilled into Canadian schoolkids from an early age.

[zapatos]

If as a Christian my only view of secularism was this web site, I would believe that I was being persecuted. The constant disdain, ridicule, and dismissal of Christian beliefs would lead me to believe I was being harassed due to my belief.

[iNow]

Why do some believe that secularism persecutes Christians?

 

Because when ones worldview is founded upon faith alone, anyone with a different worldview becomes an "other" who serves as a challenge to your entire belief system. A similar question might be, "Why do some believe that science persecutes fairy tales?"

[jeskill]

If as a Christian my only view of secularism was this web site, I would believe that I was being persecuted. The constant disdain, ridicule, and dismissal of Christian beliefs would lead me to believe I was being harassed due to my belief.

 

Again, a Christian can be a secularist. You are confusing the concepts of "agnosticism" and "atheism" with "secularism".

[zapatos]

Again, a Christian can be a secularist. You are confusing the concepts of "agnosticism" and "atheism" with "secularism".

No, although I am probably conflating them. My assumption is that most of the people on this site who belittle Christianity are secularists, but then they probably don't belittle due to their secularism.

 

However, now that I think about it, maybe those who feel persecuted are also conflating them. It is often atheists, not Christians, who call for secularism when their child is asked to say a small prayer in school, or when a bible quote shows up in city hall. If the same people who call my beliefs a joke are those who fight to keep a bunch of 8 year olds from having a moment of silence, I can see where some might believe secularism is just another way to harass.

[jeskill]

No, although I am probably conflating them. My assumption is that most of the people on this site who belittle Christianity are secularists, but then they probably don't belittle due to their secularism.

 

True.

 

However, now that I think about it, maybe those who feel persecuted are also conflating them. It is often atheists, not Christians, who call for secularism when their child is asked to say a small prayer in school, or when a bible quote shows up in city hall. If the same people who call my beliefs a joke are those who fight to keep a bunch of 8 year olds from having a moment of silence, I can see where some might believe secularism is just another way to harass.

 

True, however the link in the OP is basically written from the perspective of secular religious Jews. In this case, it's the religious Jews who feel that the permeation of Christianity into public schools is causing problems.

 

Secularism was not created so that atheists don't have to hear about religion (although that is an added benefit for atheists). It was created so that people with different beliefs can co-exist in the public sphere without feeling like their beliefs are constantly being attacked.

 

Kind of sort of on topic but with a bit of a non-sequitor: I was talking about this with my aunt (a Canadian who lived in the Texas and Washington for a while). She told me that when she moved to Texas, the second question people asked when they met her (after what's your name) was "What church do you go to?". She found this incredibly rude. It's the implication that your worth is based on what you are, as opposed to who you are. Incidentally, I realized that I don't actually know who my aunts and uncles vote for, or if they go to church, or what church they would go to if they did go to church. I've never asked. I mean, we've discussed politics, so I vaguely know their values, but that doesn't mean I know who they vote for. In the states, who you are is so wrapped up in who you vote for and what religion you are. It's incredibly divisive.

[zapatos]

Kind of sort of on topic but with a bit of a non-sequitor: I was talking about this with my aunt (a Canadian who lived in the Texas and Washington for a while). She told me that when she moved to Texas, the second question people asked when they met her (after what's your name) was "What church do you go to?". She found this incredibly rude. It's the implication that your worth is based on what you are, as opposed to who you are.

Never having lived in Texas I cannot speak to the motive behind the second question, but it may be possible your aunt misinterpreted. In the city I am from the second question is always 'what high school did you go to'? People who are not from here also interpret that as an attempt to guage their worth and think we are rude for asking. In reality it is asked because it offers so much background with such a short response. You suddenly know if they went to a single or mixed sex school, a rough idea of the neighborhood they grew up in, what people you may know in common, as well as a conversation starter for commonly known events (You went to CBC? I love the new soccer field they put in! Didn't that kid Robinson go pro?). Since everyone went to high school it is a great way to get a conversation going (except for those not from here). Since so many Texans go to church maybe they use that question the same way.

 

Incidentally, I realized that I don't actually know who my aunts and uncles vote for, or if they go to church, or what church they would go to if they did go to church. I've never asked. I mean, we've discussed politics, so I vaguely know their values, but that doesn't mean I know who they vote for. In the states, who you are is so wrapped up in who you vote for and what religion you are. It's incredibly divisive.

I completely agree. I tend to ask people who they vote for because I like to talk politics and knowing who they vote for tells me what topics are good to discuss. Years ago people almost always answered (although black people typically refused - another topic) and we would have what seemed to be an enjoyable conversation for all. Nowadays, almost no one answers my question of who they voted for. Probably because they don't want the onslaught that so typically results.

[jeskill]

Question for you zapatos (and please feel free to tell me to bug off if you don't want to answer): Would you consider yourself a secularist Christian? Why or why not?

 

I'm not looking to attack you, I'm just truly interested.

[zapatos]

Question for you zapatos (and please feel free to tell me to bug off if you don't want to answer): Would you consider yourself a secularist Christian? Why or why not?

 

I'm not looking to attack you, I'm just truly interested.

Sorry, I didn't mean to mislead you. I should have made it clear I was just speaking in the first person as I was trying to put myself in the shoes of the Christian.

 

I was raised Catholic in the midwest portion of the US (12 years of Catholic school) but now consider myself an atheist and secular humanist.

 

My exposure to Catholicism has been almost exclusively positive so I often find myself shoulder to shoulder with the theists during religious discussions.

 

And btw, you can ask me anything. I don't take offense when people ask about or question my positions.

[Greg H.]

One of the things I have noticed, at least in the US, is a very much "With us or against us" kind of attitude towards a wide variety of subjects. There doesn't seem to be any room for common ground in the middle - you either vote like me, or you're against me. You go to church where I do or you're against me. You believe the way I believe or you're against me and my beliefs. I remember growing up (and maybe I am romanticizing this - I didn't pay as much attention to politics when I was younger), you could still have a substantive debate with someone of a different political persuasion than you without it turning into 5 year olds yelling "Nuh Uh!" back and forth at each other. Now, it seems more like each side automatically gainsays the other just because they're "on the other side of the aisle" rather than because what they say is actually right or wrong. I think it's that strict bilateral viewpoint that leads to this feeling of persecution from the religious groups - if you disagree with or reject our beliefs, you are automatically attacking them.

[John Cuthber]

If I laugh at someone for believing in something absurd, it is not persecution, it's a normal reaction of humans to absurdity. It may not be polite or helpful, but it's not persecution

It's not systematic and it's not directed against any particular group. (I laugh at other people when they say something silly whether they are Christian or not and whether or not what they are saying is determined by their faith or not).

 

Killing six million Jews is persecution.

Forbidding some people getting married because they happened to fall in love with someone of the same sex is persecution (and it's quite subtle as such persecution goes).

 

What "persecution" have Christians (or any other faith) actually suffered at the hands of secularists?

When were the secularists actually in charge and so in a position to do any persecuting?

 

If there isn't real evidence of actual persecution of Christians then they must have been misled somehow and I can't help thinking dishonesty played a part in that.

[jeskill]

Sorry, I didn't mean to mislead you. I should have made it clear I was just speaking in the first person as I was trying to put myself in the shoes of the Christian.

 

I was raised Catholic in the midwest portion of the US (12 years of Catholic school) but now consider myself an atheist and secular humanist.

 

My exposure to Catholicism has been almost exclusively positive so I often find myself shoulder to shoulder with the theists during religious discussions.

 

And btw, you can ask me anything. I don't take offense when people ask about or question my positions.

 

 

Ah ok.

 

Where are the theists on this board? I know there are some, and I'd love to hear their thoughts on this matter.

[swansont]

I think it comes from privilege and entitlement; when you're immersed in it you don't see it it, and when it's removed, the loss feels like a bias against you. Anyone who's been in charge of people probably knows how much tougher it is to make rules more stringent than it is to relax them. People get used to a certain way of thinking and behaving, and if it turns out that some shortcut is not permitted, taking that away seems like an attack, especially of the folks don't realize that it was a shortcut. They just think of it as they way they're allowed to do things. So when you tell the gang that they need to start turning in their receipts to get reimbursed or need to route that form and get those signatures, you'll hear grousing, even though it was always the rule but wasn't enforced. They feel entitled to the system they have. Same with religion. If everybody is a Christian (or whatever) in the community, then you get used to it, and don't pay any attention to unconstitutional behavior because nobody complains. Take it away and it feels like persecution.

[Ophiolite]

Well, you would have to concede that asking people to think rationally is not only unfair, but goes against the natural order of things. If God had meant us to think for ourselves he would have made the Bible internally consistent.

[Moontanman]

Never having lived in Texas I cannot speak to the motive behind the second question, but it may be possible your aunt misinterpreted. In the city I am from the second question is always 'what high school did you go to'? People who are not from here also interpret that as an attempt to guage their worth and think we are rude for asking. In reality it is asked because it offers so much background with such a short response. You suddenly know if they went to a single or mixed sex school, a rough idea of the neighborhood they grew up in, what people you may know in common, as well as a conversation starter for commonly known events (You went to CBC? I love the new soccer field they put in! Didn't that kid Robinson go pro?). Since everyone went to high school it is a great way to get a conversation going (except for those not from here). Since so many Texans go to church maybe they use that question the same way.

 

 

I completely agree. I tend to ask people who they vote for because I like to talk politics and knowing who they vote for tells me what topics are good to discuss. Years ago people almost always answered (although black people typically refused - another topic) and we would have what seemed to be an enjoyable conversation for all. Nowadays, almost no one answers my question of who they voted for. Probably because they don't want the onslaught that so typically results.

 

 

All over the southern US the idea that where you go to church is the 2nd question asked by total strangers is pretty much universal, god help you if you answer that you don't go to church. Then they take it upon themselves to sell you their church because they know that if you would just give their church a try then all your worldly troubles would be over...

 

Tell them that you are an atheist and get something ranging from anger to puzzlement, either they don't understand how anyone who doesn't have horns and a pitch fork could be an atheist or they want to know why you hate god...

 

I tell them I'm a Pagan, usually clears out the gawkers pretty quick, especially if I utter a few mumbled phrases and call the name of the goddess Adriana!

[jeskill]

All over the southern US the idea that where you go to church is the 2nd question asked by total strangers is pretty much universal, god help you if you answer that you don't go to church. Then they take it upon themselves to sell you their church because they know that if you would just give their church a try then all your worldly troubles would be over...

 

Tell them that you are an atheist and get something ranging from anger to puzzlement, either they don't understand how anyone who doesn't have horns and a pitch fork could be an atheist or they want to know why you hate god...

 

I tell them I'm a Pagan, usually clears out the gawkers pretty quick, especially if I utter a few mumbled phrases and call the name of the goddess Adriana!

 

I'm so sorry! I meant to click "like" and accidentally clicked "unlike". Can a moderator please fix that?

 

When I was a young firebrand in my first year of university, I remember asking a classmate what her religion was (I was somewhat of a proselytizing atheist), and her response was,

"I believe religion is private, so I'm not going to answer that question." I was incredibly embarrassed and even bit angry that she had been so short with me, but it worked. I've never asked a stranger/acquaintance questions of that nature since.

 

... at least IRL.

[imatfaal]

I'm so sorry! I meant to click "like" and accidentally clicked "unlike". Can a moderator please fix that?

Fixed

 

When I was a young firebrand in my first year of university, I remember asking a classmate what her religion was (I was somewhat of a proselytizing atheist), and her response was,

"I believe religion is private, so I'm not going to answer that question." I was incredibly embarrassed and even bit angry that she had been so short with me, but it worked. I've never asked a stranger/acquaintance questions of that nature since.

 

... at least IRL.

I think the day that religion becomes truly a private matter will be the day that we can mark a new era of human development - it is the intersection between religion and government that is really dangerous. Personally I do not like personal religious devotion (and it is not without its problems especially for the children/dependants of believers) - but it is an individual choice. And like many individual choices it would be counter-productive and potentially catastrophic for society to try to do anything about it.

[Moontanman]

Actually I think it's part of christian doctrine that they are going to be persecuted, in fact that's part of the whole end times death cult fundy movement, they want it so bad they see it everywhere they look...