Expansion

[MrFoos]

Ok, serious question from layman. If the universe is expanding... then why aren't we expanding along with it? Are only galaxies expanding? Why not all areas of space... which would include the space our atoms and cells take up.

 

 

 

Thanks in advance!

Edited October 12, 2012 by MrFoos

[zapatos]

Ok, serious question from layman. If the universe is expanding... then why aren't we expanding along with it? Are only galaxies expanding? Why not all areas of space... which would include the space our atoms and cells take up.

 

 

 

Thanks in advance!

Dark energy, the source of expansion, is thought to permeate all of space, including the space within our bodies. Dark energy is weaker than gravity on relatively small scales, such as between planets in our solar system, stars in our galaxy, and even galaxies within our supercluster. These objects are gravitationally bound and the force of dark energy is not powerful enough to overcome that gravity. On a relatively large scale, such as between superclusters of galaxies where gravity has weakened enough due to great distances, dark energy is powerful enough to overcome that weak gravity. Therefore the expansion of the universe takes place between superclusters.

[Nobrainer]

Only space appears to be expanding.

 

 

Currently, no one knows exactly what is going on. Assume the universe was compact to something very small before the big bang, the size of a nutshell as Stephen Hawkins book, "the universe in a Nutshell says". That means that even space was confined.

 

Now I do not believe the universe is like a clown car so only a finite amount of mass, energy and space existed, packed tightly into the nutshell. Probably as one substance I assume. Now if the normal laws of physics apply and space is increasing in size, then mass and energy should be decreasing in size yet because stars give off all spectra of electromagnetic fields then they fill the missing mass and energy as a pool automatic filler fills in the evaporative swimming pool water.

 

 

So mass and energy should not appear to increase or decrease even though in a isolated system you should be able to see the law of conservation of total energy violated until space expansion is taken into account.

 

If you take two balls of yarn and tie the strings together and set the balls of yarn on the ground and walk away from both balls evenly you will see the balls of yarn come at you unwinding as they increase in acceleration and you will see the balls of yarn also move together. This could be the mechanism that simply explains the nature of dark energy and gravity, two actions of one process. Could mass and energy naturally decay into space itself via decay into the gravitational wave, space itself, and when waves combine they create a reaction called gravitation.

This explains everything.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Nobrainer

[Dekan]

Dark energy, the source of expansion, is thought to permeate all of space, including the space within our bodies. Dark energy is weaker than gravity on relatively small scales, such as between planets in our solar system, stars in our galaxy, and even galaxies within our supercluster. These objects are gravitationally bound and the force of dark energy is not powerful enough to overcome that gravity. On a relatively large scale, such as between superclusters of galaxies where gravity has weakened enough due to great distances, dark energy is powerful enough to overcome that weak gravity. Therefore the expansion of the universe takes place between superclusters.

 

Can we define exactly what a "supercluster" is. How many galaxies must it contain in order to qualify as a "supercluster".

 

Could we say, for example, that a cluster of a mere 9 galaxies isn't enough - in this puny agglomeration, gravity is too strong. The G-Force overcomes the Dark Energy.

 

But everything would be different if you added 1 more galaxy, so it became a 10-galaxy cluster. This would promote it to "Supercluster" status. It would then kick the contemptible G-Force away, and start operating under Major League "Dark Energy" rules.

 

This theory seems kind of implausible. Doesn't it place too much dependence on the meaning of human-invented words like "Supercluster"?

[Jacques]

Dark energy, the source of expansion, is thought to permeate all of space, including the space within our bodies. Dark energy is weaker than gravity on relatively small scales, such as between planets in our solar system, stars in our galaxy, and even galaxies within our supercluster. These objects are gravitationally bound and the force of dark energy is not powerful enough to overcome that gravity. On a relatively large scale, such as between superclusters of galaxies where gravity has weakened enough due to great distances, dark energy is powerful enough to overcome that weak gravity. Therefore the expansion of the universe takes place between superclusters.

I don't think that dark energy is the source of expansion. I think that dark energy is responsible for the acceleration of the expansion of space.

[zapatos]

I don't think that dark energy is the source of expansion. I think that dark energy is responsible for the acceleration of the expansion of space.

Yes, you are of course correct. Expansion is thought to be a generic property of space, and expansion is thought to be accelerating due to dark energy.

 

To the OP, my point remains that the reason that atoms in my body do not expand away from each other and stars do not expand their way out of the galaxy, is due to them being bound by the stronger forces of gravity and other physical and chemical bonds.

 

Can we define exactly what a "supercluster" is. How many galaxies must it contain in order to qualify as a "supercluster".

 

Could we say, for example, that a cluster of a mere 9 galaxies isn't enough - in this puny agglomeration, gravity is too strong. The G-Force overcomes the Dark Energy.

 

But everything would be different if you added 1 more galaxy, so it became a 10-galaxy cluster. This would promote it to "Supercluster" status. It would then kick the contemptible G-Force away, and start operating under Major League "Dark Energy" rules.

 

This theory seems kind of implausible. Doesn't it place too much dependence on the meaning of human-invented words like "Supercluster"?

Expansion is simply an observation of the behavior of structures in the universe. The structures we see in the universe have been named solar systems, galaxies, galaxy clusters, superclusters, etc. What we observe is that space expands between structures as large as what we've named superclusters, but is not observed between, for example, galaxies within a cluster.

 

There is nothing special about 'superclusters' expanding away from each other, it is just that there is a much larger distance between superclusters than there is between galaxies within a cluster. It is the distance that is important. The distance between superclusters is enough to allow expansion to overcome gravity, the distance between galaxies within a cluster is not enough to allow expansion to overcome gravity.

 

If in some part of the universe there are two stand-alone galaxies which have a distance between them that is comparable to the distance between two superclusters, then they would be expanding away from each other also.

[Nobrainer]

It really surprises me how no one else can put all the puzzle pieces together.

Within the singularity, initial conditions caused what we have today. So you can make up stuff and create new categories or you can reevaluate what we already think we know.

To simplify the process tie two strings together which are connected to two balls of yard and set the balls of yarn apart 10 feet. Then walk away holding the yarn connected strings and watch the two balls of yarn come towards you increasingly accelerating and also the balls of yarn come together as they both unwind. Time is the change in the balls of yarn mass and space is the string unwinding from the yarn- mass.

In the finite singularity, mass, energy and space existed and now space is increasing with common sense says that mass or energy or both (e=mc(sq)) is decreasing. ALL Galaxies will be losing mass/ energy as space increases. Dark energy is space expanding as it pulls mass with it. It really is that easy... Time is a overall measure of this entropic process and relative time is the change in decay rate due to a changing density of the medium, space itself/ the gravitational field.

 

Dark matter is concentric wavefront formation and dark energy is constructive wave interference of a monopole wave.

[imatfaal]

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Moderator Note

Nobrainer

Please do not hijack threads on the main boards with speculative answers to questions. Whilst the details and source of dark energy are still largely unknown; this situation does not mean that members have freedom to answer with any theory they choose. Keep your ideas about gravity and wave interference to your thread in Speculations.

It really surprises me how no one else can put all the puzzle pieces together.
Within the singularity, initial conditions caused what we have today. So you can make up stuff and create new categories or you can reevaluate what we already think we know.
To simplify the process tie two strings together which are connected to two balls of yard and set the balls of yarn apart 10 feet. Then walk away holding the yarn connected strings and watch the two balls of yarn come towards you increasingly accelerating and also the balls of yarn come together as they both unwind. Time is the change in the balls of yarn mass and space is the string unwinding from the yarn- mass.
In the finite singularity, mass, energy and space existed and now space is increasing with common sense says that mass or energy or both (e=mc(sq)) is decreasing. ALL Galaxies will be losing mass/ energy as space increases. Dark energy is space expanding as it pulls mass with it. It really is that easy... Time is a overall measure of this entropic process and relative time is the change in decay rate due to a changing density of the medium, space itself/ the gravitational field.

Dark matter is concentric wavefront formation and dark energy is constructive wave interference of a monopole wave.

Do not take this thread further away from its topic by responding to this modnote. You can report or PM if you feel it was unwarranted or unjust

[Dekan]

It is the distance that is important. The distance between superclusters is enough to allow expansion to overcome gravity, the distance between galaxies within a cluster is not enough to allow expansion to overcome gravity.

 

If in some part of the universe there are two stand-alone galaxies which have a distance between them that is comparable to the distance between two superclusters, then they would be expanding away from each other also.

 

Thanks Zapatos, very interesting post. The "distance" concept is what I'm struggling to understand.

 

The general idea is that at short distances, "gravity" is stronger than "expansion". Is that right? If so, Ok - but when does a distance stop being short?

 

To illustrate this question, may I use your example of two stand-alone galaxies. Such as our Milky Way and Andromeda's M31. These are some 2+ million light-years apart at present, and are getting closer - drawn towards each other by the inward pull of gravity.

 

But what if the distance between them, was 4 million light-years, or 10, or 100. Presumably at some point, inward "gravity" would get too weak. Then outward "expansion" would take over. So the two galaxies would start moving away from each other.

 

I suppose my basic question is this: is it possible to calculate at what distance "Gravity" is overcome by "Expansion"?

[zapatos]

The general idea is that at short distances, "gravity" is stronger than "expansion". Is that right?

That is correct.

 

I suppose my basic question is this: is it possible to calculate at what distance "Gravity" is overcome by "Expansion"?

Unfortunately that is not something I'm able to answer. If someone else with more knowledge could jump in I'd love to hear the answer myself.

 

It seems to me that this is not well understood and is therefore difficult to calculate. I continually see differences of opinion on how much of the expansion is intrinsic, how much of a role dark energey plays, how much of it is due to inertia from the big bang, what role the early inflationary period of the universe played, etc. It seems easy enough to calculate the rates at which expansion is taking place over very large distances but I have never seen a calculation that determines a point at which two bodies pass from being governed by gravitation to being governed by expansion.

[Nobrainer]

The topic is expansion; how is the universe expanding at an increasing rate going faster and faster? Is more and more force added?

I suggest the force of expansion is essentially constant but the total mass and energy is decreasing. To show evidence of the total mass and energy decreasing I believe that the results from the 1993 nobel prize in Physics showing gravitational energy loss in a binary star system is a good example.

 

So if total energy is decreasing in galaxies (which by just knowing that a galaxy even exists you know that it is because the energy the galaxy gave up in visible light allows you to see it) and in superclusters then is there a way the force could be constant?

 

Yes, here is an example of how a constant force on a decreasing mass causes gravity and dark energy (increasing expansion).

 

Two balls of yarn = two separate masses placed 10 feet apart

The unwinding string fro the yarn = energy being given off in the form of constructive interference.

(Note; fact- constructive interference happens when emitted waves of the same energies have long wavelengths,)

As the two strings are placed together, (constructive wave interference) and you walk away at a constant speed

the two balls of yarn come close together, touch (gravity) and the two balls of yarn also move towards the constant force of you walking away( speed of the gravitational wave) and the balls continue to move faster and faster accelerating quicker and quicker until they match the speed of the string by becomming all string.

 

 

This is an example of a reason behind the expansion of the universe which explains why we are held by gravity while the overall universe(space) is expanding at a constant rate yet the mass and energy within space are increasing in acceleration while they are dissolving creating more space.

 

It is one cool possible solution to the possibility of the mechanism behind the universe.

[Dekan]

That is correct.

 

 

Unfortunately that is not something I'm able to answer. If someone else with more knowledge could jump in I'd love to hear the answer myself.

 

It seems to me that this is not well understood and is therefore difficult to calculate. I continually see differences of opinion on how much of the expansion is intrinsic, how much of a role dark energey plays, how much of it is due to inertia from the big bang, what role the early inflationary period of the universe played, etc. It seems easy enough to calculate the rates at which expansion is taking place over very large distances but I have never seen a calculation that determines a point at which two bodies pass from being governed by gravitation to being governed by expansion.

 

That's the point! I'd like to see a precise mathematical calculation of when it happens.

 

I suspect no calculation can be supplied, because the idea of "Space" expanding doesn't make sense. "Space" isn't a real thing. It's just a sexy word for the separation between objects.

 

Suppose someone told you that there's an actual thing called "Separation", and it keeps expanding. What would you say?

[zapatos]

That's the point! I'd like to see a precise mathematical calculation of when it happens.

Me too, but I think the problem is our lack of knowledge of exactly what is happening, rather than the fact that we've made a terrible mistake.

 

I suspect no calculation can be supplied, because the idea of "Space" expanding doesn't make sense. "Space" isn't a real thing. It's just a sexy word for the separation between objects.

It may not make sense but that is neither here nor there. The fact is that observation and theory support the concept of expansion.

 

As an example we observe that the further a galaxy is from us the faster it is receding. Meaning that if the galaxies were lined up as:

 

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - Us - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 - 12

 

with an equal distance between each of them, then we will see galaxies 6 and 7 receding at a rate of 1x from us, galaxies 5 and 8 receding at a rate of 2x from us, etc. There is a great deal of scientific evidence to support this observation.

 

Now it could be that our galaxy just happens to be in the center of the universe, and for some reason we are not moving, and for some reason galaxies 6 and 7 are moving away from us at the same velocity of 1x, and that galaxies 5 and 8 who happen to be twice as far away from us are moving away from us at twice that velocity of 2x, and so on.

 

And of course we have to explain why to galaxy 3, the galaxies to the left seem to be moving away at different velocities than the galaxies to the right.

 

But the more likely scenario (once again supported by theory and observation) is that we are not in the center of the universe and the galaxies are all moving away from each other at the same rate, based on comparable amounts of space in between.

 

Based on the previous setup:

 

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - Us - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 - 12

 

expansion would manifest itself as space expanding equally between equally distant galaxies. So if we double the space between each set of galaxies, we now end up with:

 

 

1 -- 2 -- 3 -- 4 -- 5 -- 6 -- Us -- 7 -- 8 -- 9 -- 10 -- 11 -- 12

 

At this point it still looks like galaxies are receding from us, and we still see galaxies at greater distances receding at greater rates, but now we can explain it without us being at the center of the universe, and we don't have to explain the physics behind galaxies at one distance travelling at one velocity, and galaxies at twice the distance travelling at twice the velocity.

 

Galaxies 6 and 7 used to be one unit from us, and now they are two units from us. Galaxies 5 and 8 were two units from us but now they are four units away.

 

Now no matter where you are in the universe, whether at galaxy 4, or Us, or 10, you will see that the recessional speed of galaxies increase as their distance from you increases. Everyone looks as if they are at the center of the universe.

Edited October 20, 2012 by zapatos

[ACG52]

The distance at which expansion overcomes gravity is about 200 million light years.

[zapatos]

The distance at which expansion overcomes gravity is about 200 million light years.

Can you point me to a link for that? I wasn't able to find that number and would like to read more about it. Thanks.

[ACG52]

I'd start here,

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space

and in the section Is the expansion of the universe felt on small scales, follow the hyperlinks.

 

Also information here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_of_Greatness#End_of_Greatness

[Nobrainer]

What if someone had the answer and yet you just let it slip by...

Total universe potential energy = total Mass potential energy + total electromagnetic field energy + total space energy

 

 

space energy increase = Total energy decrease

 

As the universe is expanding mass and energy are shrinking, in the sense that total energy is decreasing.

 

So the mechanism where gravity is overtaken by dark energy is not the mechanism, the way you think. Dark energy is a pulling of galaxies and superclusters by the byproduct of mass and energy decaying into the gravitational wave, creating space itself. This results in a constant velocity of space and a constant force on matter which equals a decreasing measured mass and an increasing acceleration.

 

There is a mechanism of action in the universe in which gravitational waves emitted from all mass and energy align with other emitted gravitational waves AND created two forces, the first force is when waves come together they align creating an alignment of the sources. This is gravity.

 

The second action is a dark matter action when the waves forming wavefronts join larger and larger wavefronts with creating a reaction that aligns and holds entire galaxies together.

 

The third action of this is when galaxies form wavefronts with other galaxies in their expanding big bang section of the universe and the waves align with the waves in the overall section and as the waves ate accelerating outward bring the galaxies and suerclusters with the aligning wavefronts of space.

 

It is too easy,

1). Mass and energy decay into gravitational waves which form wavefronts.

2). The reaction to wavefront formation is gravity

The release and alignment of gravitational waves is the action behind gravity, dark matter and dark energy.

[ACG52]

What if someone had the answer and yet you just let it slip by...

Total universe potential energy = total Mass potential energy + total electromagnetic field energy + total space energy

 

 

space energy increase = Total energy decrease

 

As the universe is expanding mass and energy are shrinking, in the sense that total energy is decreasing.

 

So the mechanism where gravity is overtaken by dark energy is not the mechanism, the way you think. Dark energy is a pulling of galaxies and superclusters by the byproduct of mass and energy decaying into the gravitational wave, creating space itself. This results in a constant velocity of space and a constant force on matter which equals a decreasing measured mass and an increasing acceleration.

 

There is a mechanism of action in the universe in which gravitational waves emitted from all mass and energy align with other emitted gravitational waves AND created two forces, the first force is when waves come together they align creating an alignment of the sources. This is gravity.

 

The second action is a dark matter action when the waves forming wavefronts join larger and larger wavefronts with creating a reaction that aligns and holds entire galaxies together.

 

The third action of this is when galaxies form wavefronts with other galaxies in their expanding big bang section of the universe and the waves align with the waves in the overall section and as the waves ate accelerating outward bring the galaxies and suerclusters with the aligning wavefronts of space.

 

It is too easy,

1). Mass and energy decay into gravitational waves which form wavefronts.

2). The reaction to wavefront formation is gravity

The release and alignment of gravitational waves is the action behind gravity, dark matter and dark energy.

 

 

You should keep your nonsense in the Speculation forum. It doesn't belong in Physics.

[Cancer 03]

The distance at which expansion overcomes gravity is about 200 million light years.

 

In which method is this calculated?

[ACG52]

In which method is this calculated?

 

It's observed, not calculated.

[imatfaal]

!

Moderator Note

Nobrainer

Stop posting your own pet theory as an answer to questions on the main physics board. You will not be asked again.

What if someone had the answer and yet you just let it slip by...
Total universe potential energy = total Mass potential energy + total electromagnetic field energy + total space energy


space energy increase = Total energy decrease

As the universe is expanding mass and energy are shrinking, in the sense that total energy is decreasing.

So the mechanism where gravity is overtaken by dark energy is not the mechanism, the way you think. Dark energy is a pulling of galaxies and superclusters by the byproduct of mass and energy decaying into the gravitational wave, creating space itself. This results in a constant velocity of space and a constant force on matter which equals a decreasing measured mass and an increasing acceleration.

There is a mechanism of action in the universe in which gravitational waves emitted from all mass and energy align with other emitted gravitational waves AND created two forces, the first force is when waves come together they align creating an alignment of the sources. This is gravity.

The second action is a dark matter action when the waves forming wavefronts join larger and larger wavefronts with creating a reaction that aligns and holds entire galaxies together.

The third action of this is when galaxies form wavefronts with other galaxies in their expanding big bang section of the universe and the waves align with the waves in the overall section and as the waves ate accelerating outward bring the galaxies and suerclusters with the aligning wavefronts of space.

It is too easy,
1). Mass and energy decay into gravitational waves which form wavefronts.
2). The reaction to wavefront formation is gravity
The release and alignment of gravitational waves is the action behind gravity, dark matter and dark energy.

Do not derail this thread further by responding to this modnote within the thread. Report this message you think it was incorrect or unwarranted.