VP Debate

[ydoaPs]

Who do you think won the debate and why?

[john5746]

Who do you think won the debate and why?

 

I didn't watch all of it, but I felt Biden won his debate more than Romney did. Of course, I'm biased.

[iNow]

I'm reading comments on conservative FB pages that are SCREAMING!! that Biden lied the whole time. Love the lack of self-awareness.

I only heard the tail end of the debate on the radio while driving home last night. Have it DVR'd, and plan to watch at lunchtime today.

[ydoaPs]

I'm reading comments on conservative FB pages that are SCREAMING!! that Biden lied the whole time.

 

I mostly saw conservatives saying he was a bully for correcting most of Ryan's lies. Do you remember anything specific they said Biden lied about? I wonder if there's a Politifact rundown of the debate.

[CaptainPanic]

In a debate where the two sides argue about mostly subjective issues (or, at least non-scientific issues they cannot prove, like the economy), logically there cannot be a winner.

 

On this forum, anyone using the debating style of both the candidates would soon be suspended and then banned for consistent use of logical fallacies, ad hominems (personal attacks) and trolling.

[ydoaPs]

As far as lies, Politifact didn't list any of Biden. Anyone have any?

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/oct/11/fact-checking-vice-presidential-debate-between-joe/

[ecoli]

In a debate where the two sides argue about mostly subjective issues (or, at least non-scientific issues they cannot prove, like the economy), logically there cannot be a winner.

 

On this forum, anyone using the debating style of both the candidates would soon be suspended and then banned for consistent use of logical fallacies, ad hominems (personal attacks) and trolling.

 

 

Ding, ding, ding!

 

Political debates need on stage fact checking and sources for all statements. Our worst days on the politics forums are still better than these televised slugfests. And this VP, town hall style debate is the worst of them. In no reasonable, well-structured debate format is there a section where debaters are allowed to talk over each other and interrupt the moderator.

 

That said, I think Biden did a good job chortling like a disgruntled skeptic and Ryan was quite good at inheriting Romney's smirk.

[iNow]

Do you remember anything specific they said Biden lied about?

1 - He "lied" by calling Ryan's Medicare program a "voucher plan."

2 - He "lied" when he said that there was no assault on churches

3 - He "lied" when he said that the math doesn't work and that the Romney/Ryan plan MUST increase either the deficit or taxes on the middle class

 

 

Anyway, here's the comment that stood out to me. It was made by one of my own connections:

 

The VP said: “With regard to the assault on the Catholic church, let me make it absolutely clear, no religious institution, Catholic or otherwise, including Catholic Social Services, Georgetown Hospital, Mercy Hospital, any hospital, none has to either refer contraception, none has to pay for contraception, none has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy they provide. That is a fact."

 

The Vice President of the United States just flat out lied to you, America. What are you going to do about it?

 

I only heard the tail end of the debate on the radio while driving home last night. Have it DVR'd, and plan to watch at lunchtime today.

Okay. I'm biased, but I think Biden destroyed him. It seems the undecided voters agree. Republicans hated Biden. Democrats loved him. Undecided voters sided with Biden by large margin.

[ydoaPs]

1 - He "lied" by calling Ryan's Medicare program a "voucher plan."

2 - He "lied" when he said that there was no assault on churches

3 - He "lied" when he said that the math doesn't work and that the Romney/Ryan plan MUST increase either the deficit or taxes on the middle class

 

So, he lied by telling easily verifiable truths? o.O

[Phi for All]

So, he lied by telling easily verifiable truths? o.O

Well, telling easily verifiable lies was already taken.

[Bill Angel]

As a supporter of "Obamacare" you can guess how I'm going to vote in the election. But I was somewhat put off to get this "personal" message from Joe Biden at 1:30 AM today:

Bill, I did my best to make you proud tonight. But I hope you remember one thing: This debate wasn't about me, or Congressman Ryan. It was about you, and what we're fighting for together. So if you're standing with Barack and me, like we're standing with you, please chip in $5 or more to show it: https://donate.barackobama.com/Our-Team Thanks, Joe

I do a lot of photography of street performers in Baltimore. These are situations where if you find their act entertaining, they hope that you will drop some money in their pail ($5 would be very much appreciated)   It's like Biden was putting on a performance for his Democratic supporters, who if they found it entertaining should drop $5 in his pail.

I'm still voting for him, however.

[rigney]

Who do you think won the debate and why?

Uncle Joe by a "smile"!

 

Well, telling easily verifiable lies was already taken.

Joe did have the harder lies to tell, but he did it so easily with a smile you'd think it almost comes natural to him, "Bless his heart".

[iNow]

Joe did have the harder lies to tell, but he did it so easily with a smile

Please specify which lies you are accusing Biden of telling.

[Phi for All]

As a supporter of "Obamacare" you can guess how I'm going to vote in the election. But I was somewhat put off to get this "personal" message from Joe Biden at 1:30 AM today:

I'm completely disgusted by both parties at this point. Both the GOP and the DNC have made this all about the money. I don't get information about polls sent to me anymore, it's all about how much money the other guys are raising. And Republican friends tell me they get the same thing.

 

And isn't it a coincidence that so many major corporations promoting the candidates own so many media outlets now? They're the real winners here, getting so much of this money we're donating for ad buys.

 

I keep wondering why these guys who have a billion dollars to spend need my $5. I suppose it's really just the psychology that's important. If you give them $5, you'll also be 99% sure to vote for them.

[iNow]

It may seem like a tiny amount, but when a lot of people do it, it adds up. Obama has raised $163M from small donations compared to Romney's $47M in small donations.

 

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/

 

 

Interestingly, Romney's top five contributors are ALL banks.

 

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Edited October 13, 2012 by iNow

[ecoli]

Please specify which lies you are accusing Biden of telling.

 

 

Here are 5 lies by Joe B in one sentence: http://i.imgur.com/JgiFM.jpg

 

*edit: ok maybe not 5 individual lies, but the point is made.

[john5746]

Here are 5 lies by Joe B in one sentence: http://i.imgur.com/JgiFM.jpg

 

*edit: ok maybe not 5 individual lies, but the point is made.

 

Biden voted for the two wars, but voted against the prescription drug benefit and the tax cuts. He didn't say he didn't vote for the wars or was even against them, just implies they shouldn't have been on a credit card. The way it is worded, he could Romney out of it by claiming "them" only refers to the last two items.

 

But this stuff is more directly related to the deficit than the recession, maybe the Iraq war was a distraction from the economy, one could argue.

 

I think the Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999 and any other deregulation of banks was a more direct cause of the great recession. They both voted for that, but I would say that Ryan, being a Randian, would be far more suspect going forward. He thinks Atlas is holding up the world by himself. He doesn't see all the "little" people underneath his feet.

[waitforufo]

Who do I think won the debate and why?

 

I think Fox News won based on viewership numbers.

 

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/vp-debate-ratings-joe-biden-paul-ryan_b149342

 

Cable News 9:00-10:30PM:

 

FNC: 10,019,827 in total viewers (3,057,099 in 25-54)

MSNBC: 4,378,671 in total viewers (1,619,542 in 25-54)

CNN: 4,145,951 in total viewers (1,523,882 in 25-54)

 

Broadcast Fast Nationals 9-10:30PM:

 

CBS: 8,308,421 in P2+ (3,400,620)

ABC: 8,287,610 in P2+ (2,995,352)

NBC: 7,851,757 in P2+ (3,560,307)

 

Broadcast Post-Debate Analysis 10:33-11:00PM:

 

NBC: 6,697,000 in P2+ (2,875,000 in 25-54)

ABC: 6,057,000 in P2+ (2,372,000 in 25-54)

CBS: 5,931,000 in P2+ (2,187,000 in 25-54)

 

8:00-11:00PM (cable news primetime)

 

FNC: 8,052,332 in total viewers (2,283,719 in 25-54)

MSNBC: 3,516,671 in total viewers (1,275,399 in 25-54)

CNN: 3,265,598 in total viewers (1,164,117 in 25-54)

 

Those a quite impressive numbers for Fox News.

 

You have to wonder how these debate viewership numbers will impact the election. Also one needs to consider how many people thought the VP Debate was even worth watching.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/tv/vp-debate-ratings-cant-match-palin-from-2008/2012/10/12/ce52d3c4-14bc-11e2-9a39-1f5a7f6fe945_story.html

 

An estimated 51.4 million people watched Ryan, the Republican challenger, debate Vice President Biden, a Democrat, on Thursday night, said Nielsen, the company that measures television audiences.

 

Four years ago, just under 70 million people watched Palin debate Biden. But that was unusual; it was a debate that had more viewers than even any presidential contest dating back to 1992.

 

So 26% fewer people watched this VP debate compared to the previous VP debate.

 

So with fewer people watching and most of the viewers watching Fox News, I doubt the debate will help Obama ticket much. Romney doesn't seem to need the help at the moment.

 

So the only winner I see is Fox News.

 

I'm a little surprised about all this talk about lies. We are talking about politicians and they were opening their mouths.

[overtone]

Here are 5 lies by Joe B in one sentence: http://i.imgur.com/JgiFM.jpg

 

*edit: ok maybe not 5 individual lies, but the point is made.

OK, so maybe no definite, actual, reality contradicting, etc, lie at all, but the point is made -

 

what point was it?

 

I'm a little surprised about all this talk about lies. We are talking about politicians and they were opening their mouths.

The nature and blatancy of the dishonesty from the last few Republican Presidential campaigns is in a class by itself.

 

If you notice, the general assertion (with various particulars) that:

 

all politicians are continual and habitual liars, it makes no difference what they say or have said, and there is no difference between them in what they will do once elected;

 

is a Republican campaign and rightwing faction talking point, heard from pundits favoring them and agents of that agenda. That might seem strange, but the reason is simple: they more than anyone else have to deny what they've said and done, to win elections, and they have to do that without looking like unusually blatant and odious liars who will continue to do damage if elected, in comparison with their opponents.

 

Since even on US media they own they can't completely avoid looking like blatant and odious liars who have done serious damage to the country over the past generation, they need to put some effort into the part about "in comparison with their opponents" - it's what they have to work with. Like a drunk who has smashed his car into the side of a school bus talking about how everybody drinks beer, look at how much beer bus drivers drink.

 

Fortunately the main side effect - general voter discouragement and political apathy - also benefits them, in that their important source of political power ( corporate wealth) is immune. When the fight is a power struggle between people and money, discouraging everyone is one way for the money to win.

Edited October 15, 2012 by overtone