Greenhouse effect

Moontanman · October 16, 2012

moon:

I don't mind being embarrassed as long as I learn something or helping a friend get out of a bind.

That is how I maintain a negative track record.

zorro

BTW: According to my spwell checker, you misspelled embarrassed. .....

I did accommodate the OP. The greenhouse effect major factor is the magnetosphere and cycles 10 to 11 years dependent on Jupiter's Magnetosphere's cycles and strengts. Planet Designer is silent on these effects and thus worthless.

OP theme:

" Is it possible to calculate the greenhouse effect of an atmosphere? Consider the Earth except with 10 times the air pressure, would the greenhouse effect be 10 times as much? Is there a way to figure out a good approximation of the greenhouse effect? The greenhouse effect of the Earths atmosphere raises the temp 36C I am trying to use this site Planet Designer to calculate a planet 3 AU from the Earths sun that would be inhabitable. I am looking at an atmosphere of about 150 psi at the surface. I need close to 300C in greenhouse effect to do this. So far I have found out that adding helium to the planets atmosphere lowers it's specific heat capacity, i would assume that this would lower the greenhouse effect? I have figured out how to change the value of specific heat capacity and assuming a greenhouse effect of 150C I get a typical surface temp of 22.9C but the 150C number is just an assumption. I can't figure out how to predict the greenhouse effect of the planets atmosphere. "

back to you .....

Can you support your assertion that a magnetosphere is necessary for a greenhouse effect to take place? How about losing all the odd fonts and such, makes it difficult to read.

The purpose of this thread is to find out if the greenhouse effect can be predicted by the atmosphere of a planet. It has nothing to do with global warming on the Earth or the validity of global warming on the earth.

zorro · October 16, 2012

Can you support your assertion that a magnetosphere is necessary for a greenhouse effect to take place? How about losing all the odd fonts and such, makes it difficult to read.

The purpose of this thread is to find out if the greenhouse effect can be predicted by the atmosphere of a planet. It has nothing to do with global warming on the Earth or the validity of global warming on the earth.

moon: (how is this font ?? it seems more difficult for me but whatever}

The greenhouse effect is a bounce of the Sun's rays we get which are controlled by the Magnetosphere. (period) In this Solar system all planets with an atmosphere exhibit greenhouse effects. {look it up}

http://helios.gsfc.n...gov/magnet.html

The Earth's Magnetosphere

Earth's Magnetosphere in the News

In spite of its low density, the

solar wind, and its accompanying magnet field, is strong enough to interact with the planets and their magnetic fields to shape magnetospheres. A magnetosphere is the region surrounding a planet where the planet's magnetic field dominates. Because the ions in the solar plasma are charged, they interact with these magnetic fields, and solar wind particles are swept around planetary magnetospheres. Life on Earth has developed under the protection of this magnetosphere.

The shape of the Earth's magnetosphere is the direct result of being blasted by solar wind. Solar wind compresses its sunward side to a distance of only 6 to 10 times the radius of the Earth. A supersonic shock wave is created sunward of Earth somewhat like a sonic boom. This shock wave is called the bow shock. Most of the solar wind particles are heated and slowed at the bow shock and detour around the Earth. Solar wind drags out the night-side magnetosphere to possibly 1000 times Earth's radius; its exact length is not known. This extension of the magnetosphere is known as the magnetotail. Many other planets in our solar system have magnetospheres of similar, solar wind-influenced shapes.

The Earth is a Planet if you haven't noticed. I contributed to your theme by telling you are falling off track with the "Planet Designer" . This would apply to all planets.

zorro ....

OP theme:

Is it possible to calculate the greenhouse effect of an atmosphere? Consider the Earth except with 10 times the air pressure, would the greenhouse effect be 10 times as much? Is there a way to figure out a good approximation of the greenhouse effect?

The greenhouse effect of the Earths atmosphere raises the temp 36C

I am trying to use this site Planet Designer to calculate a planet 3 AU from the Earths sun that would be inhabitable. I am looking at an atmosphere of about 150 psi at the surface. I need close to 300C in greenhouse effect to do this.

So far I have found out that adding helium to the planets atmosphere lowers it's specific heat capacity, i would assume that this would lower the greenhouse effect?

I have figured out how to change the value of specific heat capacity and assuming a greenhouse effect of 150C I get a typical surface temp of 22.9C but the 150C number is just an assumption. I can't figure out how to predict the greenhouse effect of the planets atmosphere.

Edited October 16, 2012 by zorro

mississippichem · October 16, 2012

moon: (how is this font ?? it seems more difficult for me but whatever}

The greenhouse effect is a bounce of the Sun's rays we get which are controlled by the Magnetosphere. (period) In this Solar system all planets with an atmosphere exhibit greenhouse effects. {look it up}

The Earth is a Planet if you haven't noticed. I contributed to your theme by telling you are falling off track with the "Planet Designer" . This would apply to all planets.

zorro ....

OP theme: " Is it possible to calculate the greenhouse effect of an atmosphere? Consider the Earth except with 10 times the air pressure, would the greenhouse effect be 10 times as much? Is there a way to figure out a good approximation of the greenhouse effect? The greenhouse effect of the Earths atmosphere raises the temp 36C I am trying to use this site Planet Designer to calculate a planet 3 AU from the Earths sun that would be inhabitable. I am looking at an atmosphere of about 150 psi at the surface. I need close to 300C in greenhouse effect to do this. So far I have found out that adding helium to the planets atmosphere lowers it's specific heat capacity, i would assume that this would lower the greenhouse effect? I have figured out how to change the value of specific heat capacity and assuming a greenhouse effect of 150C I get a typical surface temp of 22.9C but the 150C number is just an assumption. I can't figure out how to predict the greenhouse effect of the planets atmosphere. "

It's still appearing in red and in large size on my browser (latest Firefox). Are you copy-pasting from a word processor? A lot of code gibberish is also getting rendered with your post as you may be able to see in the quote above.

Edited October 16, 2012 by mississippichem

zorro · October 16, 2012

It's still appearing in red and in large size on my browser (latest Firefox). Are you copy-pasting from a word processor? A lot of code gibberish is also getting rendered with your post as you may be able to see in the quote above.

miss:

i use 6 browsers off and on. this includes my iPhone. now I am replying direct with Safari. i do change the color to deep red which makes it easier to see and find my replies. now I am using Verdana font with a size 3.

My computer is an iMac 27in w/bootcamp so I go back and forth from OS-8 Mountain Lion to Win 7. When I am OP I put my posts on Word for Mac or Word for Win depending how wordy I need to get.

I will be happy to get inline with what you, moon and the Admin prefers.

zorro ...

Edited October 16, 2012 by zorro

Moontanman · October 16, 2012

miss:

i use 6 browsers off and on. this includes my iPhone. now I am replying direct with Safari. i do change the color to deep red which makes it easier to see and find my replies. now I am using Verdana font with a size 3.

My computer is an iMac 27in w/bootcamp so I go back and forth from OS-8 Mountain Lion to Win 7. When I am OP I put my posts on Word for Mac or Word for Win depending how wordy I need to get.

I will be happy to get inline with what you, moon and the Admin prefers.

zorro ...

It's not about what anyone prefers, it's just difficult to read with all that stuff between the letters.

I still see no reason to expect a magnetic field to affect the greenhouse effect of an atmosphere, a magnetic field does not affect Electromagnetic radiation.

The main thing i wanted to do was try and predict the greenhouse effect of a particular atmosphere, I figured out that i could affect the specific heat capacity of the atmosphere by varying the gasses in that atmosphere but I can't figure out how that relates specifically to greenhouse effect in a way that would allow me to predict the actual temperature increase caused by that atmosphere...

zorro · October 16, 2012

It's not about what anyone prefers, it's just difficult to read with all that stuff between the letters.

I still see no reason to expect a magnetic field to affect the greenhouse effect of an atmosphere, a magnetic field does not affect Electromagnetic radiation.

The main thing i wanted to do was try and predict the greenhouse effect of a particular atmosphere, I figured out that i could affect the specific heat capacity of the atmosphere by varying the gasses in that atmosphere but I can't figure out how that relates specifically to greenhouse effect in a way that would allow me to predict the actual temperature increase caused by that atmosphere...

moon:

The magnetosphere deflect the solar rays as well as Electromagnetic waves away from the Planets. Planets without a Magnetosphere have no atmosphere and thus no greenhouse. The more rays deflected the less the so called greenhouse effect.

http://srag-nt.jsc.nasa.gov/SpaceRadiation/What/What.cfm

I don't think that specific heat has much effect. The reflective parameters of Ozone, water vapor, green plants .... seem to me are more of a factor.

zorro ...

Moontanman · October 16, 2012

moon:

The magnetosphere deflect the solar rays as well as Electromagnetic waves away from the Planets. Planets without a Magnetosphere have no atmosphere and thus no greenhouse. The more rays deflected the less the so called greenhouse effect.

This is false, Venus has an atmosphere nearly 100 times as dense as Earth's and yet Venus has no magnetosphere.

http://srag-nt.jsc.nasa.gov/SpaceRadiation/What/What.cfm

I don't think that specific heat has much effect. The reflective parameters of Ozone, water vapor, green plants .... seem to me are more of a factor.

zorro ...

How about some support for that assertion, if it is true why does Venus have such a high greenhouse effect? Venus has no plants, no ozone and no water vapor....

yet again your link has nothing to say about what we are talking about...

I don't understand your argument, the greenhouse effect is established science, without the greenhouse effect the temperature on the earth would vary by a couple hundred C from day to night.

You seem to be fixated on the idea that global warming is not caused by the effects of humans. this thread is not about that, the greenhouse effect is real, where or not the greenhouse effect is affected by human activities is not part of this thread.

Jacques · October 16, 2012

I think zorro is mixing up "Solar wind" with "solar radiation".

Solar wind are made of charged particles that are deflected by magnetic field.

Solar radiation are electromagnetic wave that are not deflected by magnetic field.

Hope it help

Edited October 16, 2012 by Jacques

zorro · October 16, 2012

This is false, Venus has an atmosphere nearly 100 times as dense as Earth's and yet Venus has no magnetosphere.

sure it does: and with its 96.5% Carbon Dioxide atmosphere it can sustain itself from solar radiation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus

" Magnetic field and core

Size comparison of terrestrial planets (left to right): Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars in true-color.

In 1967, Venera-4 found the Venusian magnetic field is much weaker than that of Earth. This magnetic field is induced by an interaction between the ionosphere and the solar wind,^[60]^[61] rather than by an internal dynamo in the core like the one inside the Earth. Venus's small induced magnetosphere provides negligible protection to the atmosphere against cosmic radiation. This radiation may result in cloud-to-cloud lightning discharges.^[62]

The lack of an intrinsic magnetic field at Venus was surprising given it is similar to Earth in size, and was expected also to contain a dynamo at its core. A dynamo requires three things: A conducting liquid, rotation, and convection. The core is thought to be electrically conductive and, while its rotation is often thought to be too slow, simulations show it is adequate to produce a dynamo.^[63]^[64] This implies the dynamo is missing because of a lack of convection in the Venusian core. On Earth, convection occurs in the liquid outer layer of the core because the bottom of the liquid layer is much hotter than the top. On Venus, a global resurfacing event may have shut down plate tectonics and led to a reduced heat flux through the crust. This caused the mantle temperature to increase, thereby reducing the heat flux out of the core. As a result, no internal geodynamo is available to drive a magnetic field. Instead, the heat energy from the core is being used to reheat the crust.^[65]

One possibility is Venus has no solid inner core,^[66] or its core is not currently cooling, so the entire liquid part of the core is at approximately the same temperature. Another possibility is its core has already completely solidified. The state of the core is highly dependent on the concentration of sulfur, which is unknown at present.^[65]

The weak magnetosphere around Venus means the solar wind is interacting directly with the outer atmosphere of the planet. Here, ions of hydrogen and oxygen are being created by the dissociation of neutral molecules from ultraviolet radiation. The solar wind then supplies energy that gives some of these ions sufficient velocity to escape the planet's gravity field. This erosion process results in a steady loss of low-mass hydrogen, helium, and oxygen ions, while higher-mass molecules, such as carbon dioxide, are more likely to be retained. Atmospheric erosion by the solar wind most probably led to the loss of most of the planet's water during the first billion years after it formed. The erosion has increased the ratio of higher-mass deuterium to lower-mass hydrogen in the upper atmosphere by a multiple of 150 times the ratio in the lower atmosphere.^[67]^"

How about some support for that assertion, if it is true why does Venus have such a high greenhouse effect? Venus has no plants, no ozone and no water vapor....

because of the carbon dioxide.

yet again your link has nothing to say about what we are talking about...

sure does, read it again, put on your glasses this time: solar input controls greenhouse. magnetosphere controls sun's input.

I don't understand your argument, the greenhouse effect is established science, without the greenhouse effect the temperature on the earth would vary by a couple hundred C from day to night.

You confuse greenhouse with atmospheric heating absorption and releases and photosynthesis and earth surface reflections and absorption. Greenhouse is a reflection off atmospheric gases is well known. Ignoring the magnetosphere and solar winds is not science.

You seem to be fixated on the idea that global warming is not caused by the effects of humans. this thread is not about that, the greenhouse effect is real, where or not the greenhouse effect is affected by human activities is not part of this thread.

I haven't said this here, You just now introduced it. ???

zorro bye

BTW: IMHO, Global warming is cyclic depending on the Magnetosphere and is only slightly effected by human activities, cow, sheep, and Termite methane flatulence

Edited October 16, 2012 by zorro

Moontanman · October 16, 2012

sure it does: and with its 96.5% Carbon Dioxide atmosphere it can sustain itself from solar radiation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus

" Magnetic field and core

Size comparison of terrestrial planets (left to right): Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars in true-color.

In 1967, Venera-4 found the Venusian magnetic field is much weaker than that of Earth. This magnetic field is induced by an interaction between the ionosphere and the solar wind,^[60]^[61] rather than by an internal dynamo in the core like the one inside the Earth. Venus's small induced magnetosphere provides negligible protection to the atmosphere against cosmic radiation. This radiation may result in cloud-to-cloud lightning discharges.^[62]

The lack of an intrinsic magnetic field at Venus was surprising given it is similar to Earth in size, and was expected also to contain a dynamo at its core. A dynamo requires three things: A conducting liquid, rotation, and convection. The core is thought to be electrically conductive and, while its rotation is often thought to be too slow, simulations show it is adequate to produce a dynamo.^[63]^[64] This implies the dynamo is missing because of a lack of convection in the Venusian core. On Earth, convection occurs in the liquid outer layer of the core because the bottom of the liquid layer is much hotter than the top. On Venus, a global resurfacing event may have shut down plate tectonics and led to a reduced heat flux through the crust. This caused the mantle temperature to increase, thereby reducing the heat flux out of the core. As a result, no internal geodynamo is available to drive a magnetic field. Instead, the heat energy from the core is being used to reheat the crust.^[65]

One possibility is Venus has no solid inner core,^[66] or its core is not currently cooling, so the entire liquid part of the core is at approximately the same temperature. Another possibility is its core has already completely solidified. The state of the core is highly dependent on the concentration of sulfur, which is unknown at present.^[65]

The weak magnetosphere around Venus means the solar wind is interacting directly with the outer atmosphere of the planet. Here, ions of hydrogen and oxygen are being created by the dissociation of neutral molecules from ultraviolet radiation. The solar wind then supplies energy that gives some of these ions sufficient velocity to escape the planet's gravity field. This erosion process results in a steady loss of low-mass hydrogen, helium, and oxygen ions, while higher-mass molecules, such as carbon dioxide, are more likely to be retained. Atmospheric erosion by the solar wind most probably led to the loss of most of the planet's water during the first billion years after it formed. The erosion has increased the ratio of higher-mass deuterium to lower-mass hydrogen in the upper atmosphere by a multiple of 150 times the ratio in the lower atmosphere.^[67]^"

because of the carbon dioxide.

sure does, read it again, put on your glasses this time: solar input controls greenhouse. magnetosphere controls sun's input.

You confuse greenhouse with atmospheric heating absorption and releases and photosynthesis and earth surface reflections and absorption. Greenhouse is a reflection off atmospheric gases is well known. Ignoring the magnetosphere and solar winds is not science.

I haven't said this here, You just now introduced it. ???

zorro bye

BTW: IMHO, Global warming is cyclic depending on the Magnetosphere and is only slightly effected by human activities, cow, sheep, and Termite methane flatulence

You need to support the assertion that magnetosphere has an effect on solar radiation at all much less controls it.

Exactly what part of electromagnetic radiation is not affected by magnetic fields do you not understand....

Jacques · October 17, 2012

From zorro

magnetosphere controls sun's input

Please explain and please don't resend your image of the magnetosphere.

Solar wind is not part of the equation. Solar radiation is the factor to consider and it is not influenced by the magnetosphere.

zorro · October 17, 2012

From zorro

Please explain and please don't resend your image of the magnetosphere.

Solar wind is not part of the equation. Solar radiation is the factor to consider and it is not influenced by the magnetosphere.

hello, jacq:

The input energy must be the major factor in computing energy transfer and reflection. Energy input here is Solar Winds and other magnetic emissions from the sun. All are deflected by the Magnetosphere.

If your computer analysis lacks this and other significant and factors, it isn't useful .

zorro ....

Jacques · October 17, 2012

hello, jacq:

The input energy must be the major factor in computing energy transfer and reflection. Energy input here is Solar Winds and other magnetic emissions from the sun. All are deflected by the Magnetosphere.

If your computer analysis lacks this and other significant and factors, it isn't useful .

zorro ....

Energy input from the sun:

Solar wind is almost zero because of the magnetosphere deflect these charged particle.

Solar radiation roughly 1.361 kilowatts per square meter (kW/m²) Wiki Solar Constant

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