English class

[psi20]

I've had a grudge against English since a long time. Not only is it a really subjective class (the teacher grades in theory based on a rubric, but technically grades without guidelines and focuses more on whether or not they like the person), my class focuses on memory and logical structure rather than creativity. I used to think creativity was better than essay structure, especially in writing. You don't go out and read essays, you go out and read books. Books are written in infinitely many ways, and I think English should be more open-minded in this sense.

[Skye]

Structure is common to all written work, including novels.

[slickinfinit]

From what I have learned in reading it would be sloppy to attempt to write a story or essay intended to be read without using the basic skills taught regarding structure and punctuation. Creation is just the idea expressed and organizing the creation into a readable work is the purpose of all the rules in english writing.

[psi20]

This book I just read for my English class is called The Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner. He won a Nobel Prize in literature, yet the book I read broke every rule of English I ever learned. It was sloppy. It had no punctuation in some areas. There was supposed to be chaos, confusion, etc. The plot skipped around through time.

 

And my English teacher thought it was a good book.

[Gilded]

Well, The Sound and the Fury was published in 1929. I guess the structure and rules in English have changed quite a bit since then. I'm currently reading a Finnish book from 1911 or so, and the structure and words are quite wacky.

[JaKiri]

That's not applicable, Gilded.

 

TSATF is entirely narrated. Sometimes, the narrater is one who is incapable of correct language. That is the point of the sections with poor grammar.

 

Of course, there is a difference between studying English Languange and English Literature.

[badchad]

You'd be surprised at how much you can learn. My professor always claims that in reality he's a disgruntled english teacher. I figured out exactly what he meant when I was writing my first manuscript for publication.

 

Writing is something that takes a lot of time, effort and patience to do correctly.

[Gilded]

"TSATF is entirely narrated. Sometimes, the narrater is one who is incapable of correct language. That is the point of the sections with poor grammar."

 

Alrighty then. Since I haven't read TSATF (and even if I did I'm quite sure I would have read the Finnish translation) I was just assuming things, which didn't turn out too well (once again). :/

[coquina]

Some things ya gotta learn to do right before you can wing it.

 

Being able to write effectively is an extremely useful skill, and is greatly improved by practice. I'm sure I make grammatical and spelling errors in these posts, but I make an effort to write correctly. The more one does it, the easier it becomes.

 

I do not have a college degree, I own a machine shop. Before the advent of the internet, the longest thing I wrote was an invoice.

 

People form opinions of you based on reading what you write. If u abrevi8 evry othr wrd pepl wl thnk u r slop-p.

[Gilded]

" People form opinions of you based on reading what you write. If u abrevi8 evry othr wrd pepl wl thnk u r slop-p."

 

You're exactly right about that. Excess use of "????!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!"'s or "ROFLMAO!!111"'s doesn't look good either. Remember appropriate punctuation too. (*hint hint* boris, no offense though )

[ydoaPs]

yay, just finished my english first semester final exam.

 

i got an F for the grading period(refused to turn in a pointless, subjective assignment), but i will pass the semester because i got an A the first grading period and i am fairly confident that i got all of the answers correct on the exam.

 

that isn't the point, though. i HATE the subjective crap english teachers make us do. most of it doesn't even have to do with the curriculum. i think that required english should be entirely objective. if you want a subjective english class, it should be an elective. hell, physics was an elective.

[Ophiolite]

i got an F for the grading period(refused to turn in a pointless' date=' subjective assignment), ......... i HATE the subjective crap english teachers make us do. most of it doesn't even have to do with the curriculum. i think that required english should be entirely objective. if you want a subjective english class, it should be an elective. hell, physics was an elective.[/quote']Hmm. That's a rather subjective position, don't you think?

[coquina]

that isn't the point, though. i HATE the subjective crap english teachers make us do. most of it doesn't even have to do with the curriculum.

 

What do you mean by "subjective crap"? Are you referring analysing short stories or books? "What message was the author trying to convey?" etc.

 

You can have fun with those - you don't have to go with the obvious. For example you could write that "At first glance it would seem that the author's intent was to show that even though one maybe subjected to horrible situations, through faith and perserverance one can rise above them. However, it is my belief that the author is a borderline psychopath who writes about people in misery, because he would like to put them in that position but hasn't the intestinal fortitude to do it."

 

As long as you back up your statements, the teacher can't give you a bad grade because your interpretation doesn't match everyone elses. I remember having to write an analysis of a story called "The Japanese Quince" - I don't remember the theme of the story, and I don't remember what I wrote about it, but I do remember it was about the most boring piece of drivel I ever read.

 

However, once I came up with my premise, it was fun to read the story from an entirely different point of view and analyse is that way.

[ydoaPs]

the assignment was: i had to choose a character from the play. i "was" that character. i had to write journal enties on how i felt about what was going on in the play at different times.

 

it was total crap.

[VendingMenace]

dude, that sounds like a great assignment, pogos. Seriously.

 

Of course i kinda felt the same way when i was in HS. It wasn't until i was starting grad school that my eyes were really opened to what was going on in literature. Now i love the stuff. It is funny how your opinons and thoughts change over time.

 

On another note, i think it is a good idea to have classes that are subjectively graded. Not everything in life is objective. You will have bosses that tell you to do things their way, just becuase, and you had better figure it out or theguy next door is going to get the raise/promotion/recognition. English and art classes in HS are a great way to learn how to "read" an athority figure and be able to produce what they want. perhaps not the most rewarding thing you will ever have to do, but a good skill to posess nonetheless.

[coquina]

Yeah - I think that could be fun too.

 

You could write about another actor who was pi$$y and grumpy all the time that you wondered if he was constipated or needed a dose of Preparation H.

 

Look at it from a comedic standpoint, even if the play wasn't a comedy.

 

When asked what the author was thinking we he wrote a book, my standard answer was "whether he'd be able to afford a house in the Hamptons with the proceeds."

[Zone Ranger]

English and art classes in HS are a great way to learn how to "read" an athority figure and be able to produce what they want.

I don't see why this is true.

 

 

I agree with yourdadonapogos. The assignment sounds horrible.

[coquina]

I was a teenage rebel too. Since then, the things I had to do that are stupid have multiplied ten fold. For example, "hazardous materials" - I have to file reports on every kind of chemical I have, even in small quantities. A bottle of fingernail polish that an individual buys every day and stores at home has to be on my report, and I have to keep Material Safety Data Sheets on it.

 

In other words, stupid or not, there are some things one has to do "just because". Look at those assignments as "how to handle stupid stuff in life later on." If you get the opportunity - work to change laws to make things more reasonable.

[Ophiolite]

the assignment was: i had to choose a character from the play. i "was" that character. i had to write journal enties on how i felt about what was going on in the play at different times.

it was total crap.

I'm not going to be gentle like Coquina and Vending Machine. Trust me' date=' it's for your own good.

 

[u']Get a grip on reality boy![/u] If you understand the play, in all its aspects - background, plot, characters, 'message', style, etc - then writing such a journal would be a breeze, and an outstanding way of communicating to your teacher that you did indeed understand the play.

 

Rejecting the exercise as subjective and total crap is a display of either great arrogance or great ignorance. If I were a good teacher I would look at your test result, take you to one side and kick you up the butt. If I were a bad teacher, or had seen this short sighted attitude from you before I would drop you off my radar screens.

 

Vending machine said, Not everything in life is objective. In my view that is a masterpiece of understatement. VM is trying to ease you into reality. The subjectivity you encounter at school or college is like eighty-seven decimal place, peer-reviewed, reproduce-the-experiment-anywhere objectivity, compared with what you will meet in the 'real' word.

 

I am not certain how well carrying out such assignments will help you read authority figures [it can't do any harm], but it might help you adjust to that 'real' world working life, where you don't have the choice about what assignments you undertake.

 

If this post strikes you as patronising, then good. You'll run into a lot of that, from people you know you are better than. Get used to it. If you understand what I am trying to do here, then even better.

[Gilded]

"Look at it from a comedic standpoint, even if the play wasn't a comedy."

 

Sometimes when I do this, I get heavy criticism. Know your teacher's relation to such point of views. Some teachers are just almost completely humorless people, that should be handled as such.

[coquina]

It is always easy to write what someone wants to hear. If you stray from that, you have to do twice as much work, because you have to defend your position, chapter and verse. If you defend your position successfully, and your teacher is worth her salt, she should grade you based on what you wrote, not on what she thinks.

 

In any case, she should realize that you cannot be spoon fed information, and you don't regurgitate it back in the same fashion.

 

And - for your own good, life is about analyzing a sitiuation and making a decision based on the best information available at the time. The more practice you get, the easier it will be do take action quickly, so learning to think on your feet is the most important skill you will ever acquire.

 

There will be many times that the decision you made doesn't have the effect you expect - many times there will be disastrous consequences, but you have to know for yourself that you did what you thought was right at the time, and you have to forget about "woulda, coulda, shouldas".

 

God knows, I have been where you are, and God knows, I have made plenty of disastrously wrong decisions. When I was your age (and God knows, my mother used those words so many times I thought I would strangle her), I was prone to impulsiveness.

 

The most important thing you will ever learn, is how to think. Take every opportunity possible to exercise it.

[Coral Rhedd]

the assignment was: i had to choose a character from the play. i "was" that character. i had to write journal enties on how i felt about what was going on in the play at different times.

 

it was total crap.

 

What an easy assignment!

 

Teachers assign these so they don't have to fail anyone.

[Coral Rhedd]

This book I just read for my English class is called The Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner. He won a Nobel Prize in literature' date=' yet the book I read broke every rule of English I ever learned. It was sloppy. It had no punctuation in some areas. There was supposed to be chaos, confusion, etc. The plot skipped around through time.

 

And my English teacher thought it was a good book.[/quote']

 

When you stop fighting yourself, you should read the works of Cormac McCarthy. He is a novelist who writes about people who shoot themselves in the foot. Of course he was influenced by Faulkner, as were a great many writers, and he doesn't use conventional quotation marks. But then his way with dialogue is such that he doesn't really need to.

 

As a bonus, his works have lots of violence. He wisely knows that people love to put themselves in harm's way.

 

Have you ever thought of a nice respite between high school and college. McDonald's is always hiring.

[ecoli]

I like the subjectivism in English. It makes a nice change from silence. There's no definitive answer. There's no one intepretation. Every opinion is valid as long as you can back it up with fact. I enjoy using both styles of thinking

[Blackfin]

Another thing most have failed to mention - to be good in English, or even to be a decent writer, you need to read. A lot. Fiction, nonfiction, the newspaper. It really doesn't matter. The more you read, the better you become at writing because you begin to see the tricks authors use. Also, fiction is ALWAYS going to be subjective. If you hate subjective literature, read historical fiction, or better yet, nonfiction. Personally, I can't sit down any day of the week to an abstract on vertical migration of plankton within standing saltwater basins. I have to be in a very serious put-on-my-robe-and-scientist-hat kinda mood. But Stephen King? I could sit down to read him any day of the week. National Geographic, too.

 

I just felt like somebody needed to defend English class. I wanted to be a novelist before I decided to become a scientist. And, haven't you guys noticed something?

 

Scientists write papers, to get published, to contribute to their field! If you want to contribute to science, you have to write. If you want to learn science, you have to read. Get over it, and go put on your robes and English hats.