Lessening hurricanes by triggering lightning bolts

[a_tinkerer]

The question I have – is it possible to take the strength out of a destructive hurricane by triggering lightning bolts?

 

Nasa once sent up a small rocket on a cloudless day with a copper wire attached & brought down a lightning bolt.

 

If lightning electricity comes from the electricity in the lower Van Allen belt which is generated by the earth's core, you would think you could fire an ionized laser up through a small hole in a large suspended steel object and bring down a lightning bolt. If the electricity could be drawn off into container sized capacitors and then super heat a body of water to drive a turbine you could use lightning bolts to create consumable electricity.

 

If planes can be struck with lightning and keep flying, could a device from a drone plane also be used to draw off lightning bolts? Especially if there were a number of drones flying above a hurricane to draw away its energy. As the say- energy is neither created nor lost - it is transferred!

 

Tasers that the Police use with 2 wires have been replaced in some circles by wireless Tasers that send out an ironized laser that electricity flows along. More & more items are coming on the market like wireless chargers for electric toothbrushes.

 

Controlled wireless activity is real and a huge area with which science can advance. When power is sent to a city from a hydro power dam it is sometimes first sent as direct current and then converted to alternating current at a substation down the line. In NZ there was a case some time ago where a farmer's fence passed under a direct current overhead line. He was running his house from his wire fence generated by the wireless electricity from the overhead direct current line.

 

Nikola Tesla was the man (1856 to 1943) He invented alternating current which led to setting up the first city in the world with electricity. 6 of his patents went into developing the first telephone. He invented wireless transmissions before Maconi (despite what the patent office said), the precursor to our modern cell phones. He invented the first modern electric motor & electric car which was stolen when his workshop plant was burnt down. He of course invented the Tesla coil. He invented basic circuit elements,the precursor to computers. He invented wireless electricity which still hasn't gone main stream today. Plus he invented a hoard of other patents all brought for a bargain basement price. He was probably the most electrically intuitive genius that ever walked our planet. His sense of adventure into electricity and discoveries need to be taken a step further.

 

Lightning puts out ironized feelers a split nano-second before sending out a lightning bolt from a negative charged point to a positive charged point.It can go from a negatively charged point on the ground to a positively charged cloud. From 1 charged cloud to another. From a negatively charged cloud up to the lower Van Allen belt & from a negatively charged cloud to a positively charged object like a tree or a steeple on a church. There are even photos around of the ironized feelers preceding a lightning strike.

 

The lower Van Ellen belt sends off wireless electricity which stores in the water of high clouds which builds up kind of like a giant circling capacitors or circling electric motors depending on which side of the equator you are on ready to release when the conditions are right. If you could see through the world from the North or South pole, Cyclones in the Southern Hemisphere (clockwise weather storms) & Anti Cyclones in the Northern Hemisphere (anti clockwise weather storms) are actually going the same way around as they play between the iron core of our world and the lower Van Allen belt.

 

Electrons 'circle' a direct current wire just as I believe 'circling' hurricanes increase by a massive build-up of electricity. If the electricity can be released in bolts of lightning I believe the hurricane will decrease. If not, the hurricane will get larger and let the energy out in another way being wind. I believe it is much the same as shorting out a wire decreasing the flow of electrons around a direct current wire.

 

Sending something like ionized beams downwards from a specialized high flying drone into a hurricane releasing bolts of lightning upwards or downwards to anearth based device might be able to reduce the massive power build up in destructive cyclones/anti cyclones.

 

I read somewhere that a standard hurricane has as much power as around 200 times the daily electrical output of all the power plants in the world. Why can't hurricanes be exploited? Do we always have to fear them?

 

So...the big question is – is somebody out their open to help finance or build huge ionized laser or similar device with me or others? There is only 1 way to prove a good theory. Maybe a good place to start is to prove lightning can be triggered by an ionized laser or similar device in a Faraday Gage?

 

The next step after that is to see if lightning can be safely triggered from a drone plane to take energy away from a hurricane cloud. After that…...there are many, many possibilities for lightning.

 

Is it possible to imagine 10 to 50 drone planes above Hurricane Sandy right now drawing lightning bolts off it taking the energy away from the destructive cloud? Can energy be transferred from wind to lightning?

Edited October 30, 2012 by swansont

[John Cuthber]

"Can energy be transferred from wind to lightning? "

Not very well.

 

Also you need to find out how much energy is in a thunderbolt and how much in a storm.

From that you can work out how much lightning it would take to damp the storm down.

[a_tinkerer]

In my imagination I see 10 to 50 drones flying above a hurricane triggering a lightning strikes every 5 to 20 minutes once the titanium (or similar) shields on the drone aircraft cool down. I am not talking about sucking every drop of energy from a hurricane. Just enough so the storm drops to a manageable hurricane so the resulting billions worth of damage drops down to more manageable millions worth of damage. One thing I do know - lightning bolts contain an enormous amount of energy and hurricanes contain a whole lot more. Energy is energy - if a dams energy is released through it's flood gates it's energy potential is reduced. Only time putting something real into the field will produce real and measurable results. As they say - if nothing is ventured into then nothing will be gained.

Edited October 30, 2012 by a_tinkerer

[Enthalpy]

As wrote JC but without his delicate style: forget it. Thunderbolts take a completely negligible portion of a storm's energy.

 

Mixing the Ocean to linger its surface temperature, or evaporating its surface in advance, looks less unfeasible.

[swansont]

A lightning bolt releases on on order of 5 billion Joules

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning

 

A hurricane releases ten billion times that every day just from the condensation of the water. The wind energy is around 100 times smaller than this.

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/tcfaq/D7.html

[Bill Angel]

In NZ there was a case some time ago where a farmer's fence passed under a direct current overhead line. He was running his house from his wire fence generated by the wireless electricity from the overhead direct current line. n NZ there was a case some time ago where a farmer's fence passed under a direct current overhead line. He was running his house from his wire fence generated by the wireless electricity from the overhead direct current line.

 

I can understand how it might be possible to draw power if the high tension lines were carrying AC via induction, i.e. the way a transformer couples power from one set of coils to another. But it is difficult to see how he might draw power from the high tension lines if the lines were carrying DC.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Bill Angel

[a_tinkerer]

Surely taking off the top 10% to 20% of a hurricane power is achievable? I am not being disrespectful but sitting behind the computer and pulling something apart is the easy bit, often fun (because I have done it) and completely unproductive. Nothing can replace in the field testing with the right people behind it, enough finance and a can do attitude.

 

This is new science and there will always be a lot of people saying it can't be done.

 

 

Two points than can affect the effectiveness of such a project.

 

1. If lightning can be taken off at the beginning of the formation of a hurricane rather that the end product, will that not have far greater impact? In other words - If you remove the plug in a bath of water the effect of it draining off is quite different to removing the plug in a swimming pool. Babies & small children are a lot easier to manage than teenagers or adults.

 

2. If quantity of drones is another answer to the equation (maybe 500 to 1000 maybe needed) - sure that it something man kind can achieve.

 

3. Surely - not all lightning bolts are created equal

 

Super storms are like bullies. Real big ones. I've taken down bullies in the past - every bully I have met so far has a weakness.

 

 

Also by perfecting the triggering of lightning strikes there is awesome side benefit that could make a lot of money. Super heating a body of water by using container sized capacitors and turning lightning into consumable electricity.

[John Cuthber]

Surely taking off the top 10% to 20% of a hurricane power is achievable? I am not being disrespectful but sitting behind the computer and pulling something apart is the easy bit, often fun (because I have done it) and completely unproductive. Nothing can replace in the field testing with the right people behind it, enough finance and a can do attitude.

 

This is new science and there will always be a lot of people saying it can't be done.

 

 

Two points than can affect the effectiveness of such a project.

 

1. If lightning can be taken off at the beginning of the formation of a hurricane rather that the end product, will that not have far greater impact? In other words - If you remove the plug in a bath of water the effect of it draining off is quite different to removing the plug in a swimming pool. Babies & small children are a lot easier to manage than teenagers or adults.

 

2. If quantity of drones is another answer to the equation (maybe 500 to 1000 maybe needed) - sure that it something man kind can achieve.

 

3. Surely - not all lightning bolts are created equal

 

Super storms are like bullies. Real big ones. I've taken down bullies in the past - every bully I have met so far has a weakness.

 

 

Also by perfecting the triggering of lightning strikes there is awesome side benefit that could make a lot of money. Super heating a body of water by using container sized capacitors and turning lightning into consumable electricity.

 

"Surely taking off the top 10% to 20% of a hurricane power is achievable?"

Why are you sure of this? Have you done the studies, have you got the maths to back it up?

"I am not being disrespectful but sitting behind the computer and pulling something apart is the easy bit, often fun (because I have done it) and completely unproductive."

For a start, you are being disrespectful.

For a finish, it's not "completely unproductive" to shoot down a silly suggestion before anyone wastes money on it. It would, for example, be a lot more productive to put that money into something which will actually work, like flood defences.

 

It's not a matter of pulling out a small weed before it grows into a big one. You would need to disrupt the system that s supplying energy to the whole area of the sea involved- otherwise the only effect you will have is to move the storm slightly.

 

The number of drones is a problem- because you don't need to trigger 1000 strikes, you need to trigger 1,000,000,000 of them.

All in a carefully arranged widespread grid.

 

Super storms are not like bullies- you can't face them down or get them to chicken out. The analogy just doesn't hold up.

[a_tinkerer]

Negative electricity flows to positive. Ever wondered why hurricanes start in large flat areas? It is the bulbus build up of negative poled electricity/energy trying to find a home in a positive charged cloud. I don't know what - but maybe something could also be designed to disrupt the bulbus build up of electricity across wide open places. My guess is some type of positive charged pole that draws the electricity/energy away before it hits the air.

[John Cuthber]

You have have reinvented the lightning conductor, but missed the point.

Your idea is a bit like saying that you can stop a runaway train by damaging the motor that runs the windscreen wipers.

[a_tinkerer]

Do you believe it is possible to create consumable electricity in theory from lightning bolts?

[John Cuthber]

Possible, yes: anything like economical, No.

[a_tinkerer]

If you could initiate multiple strikes of lightning every hour to charge a number of capacitors the size of 20 foot containers and then super heat a body of water with red hot coils to drive turbines to create consumable electricity. Once the prototype is refined and problems worked out - why would it be uneconomical in your opinion?

[Moontanman]

Negative electricity flows to positive. Ever wondered why hurricanes start in large flat areas? It is the bulbus build up of negative poled electricity/energy trying to find a home in a positive charged cloud. I don't know what - but maybe something could also be designed to disrupt the bulbus build up of electricity across wide open places. My guess is some type of positive charged pole that draws the electricity/energy away before it hits the air.

 

 

I suggest you google hurricane development, flatness has little to do with the production of a hurricane... I have been through several hurricanes up to cat 3 and lightning (cloud to ground anyway) is not a big part of hurricanes to begin with. or at least not something you notice while 125 mph winds are tearing at your house... green pine cones driven by the wind are noticed every time

Edited October 30, 2012 by Moontanman

[swansont]

Surely taking off the top 10% to 20% of a hurricane power is achievable? I am not being disrespectful but sitting behind the computer and pulling something apart is the easy bit, often fun (because I have done it) and completely unproductive. Nothing can replace in the field testing with the right people behind it, enough finance and a can do attitude.

 

…

 

2. If quantity of drones is another answer to the equation (maybe 500 to 1000 maybe needed) - sure that it something man kind can achieve.

Well no, that's not the case. The math is quite straightforward.

 

If one strike gets you a part in 10^10 of the energy, you need a billion drone missions a day to take 10%, assuming that you're generating that much in electrical energy, which hasn't been demonstrated. It also assumes that you have stored up that much energy per strike, which may also not be the case if you are inducing the strikes.

[a_tinkerer]

You hear about very large electromagnetic pulses taking out all the power in a city. You have to wonder how one of these would fair above a young forming hurricane.

 

 

If around 1 billion strikes would be needed to reduce a hurricane 10% - how would a large electromagnetic pulse set off above the clouds shorting out the positive and negative clouds with one another fair?

 

 

Possible, yes: anything like economical, No.

 

Why would it be uneconomical?

 

 

 

[John Cuthber]

You hear about very large electromagnetic pulses taking out all the power in a city. You have to wonder how one of these would fair above a young forming hurricane.

 

If around 1 billion strikes would be needed to reduce a hurricane 10% - how would a large electromagnetic pulse set off above the clouds shorting out the positive and negative clouds with one another fair?

 

Why would it be uneconomical?

"You have to wonder how one of these would fair above a young forming hurricane."

No, I don't because I know about absorption of em radiation.

The answer is that the pulse would pretty much go straight through.

 

"how would a large electromagnetic pulse set off above the clouds shorting out the positive and negative clouds with one another fair?"

Why are you making up the idea that it would "short out the positive and negative clouds with one another" ?

Do you have a reason to think that's what would happen or is it just wishful thinking?

 

It would be uneconomical for the reasons given in the thread I cited earlier (and which you should probably have searched for before posting).

[a_tinkerer]

With respect - Firing ironized lazers or electrical pulses into a hurricane and making consumable electricity from ironized lazers are two very separate topics in their own right.

 

What is am talking about is - Firing an ironized laser up through a small hole in large dense metal object to bring down a lightning bolt just as Nasa did with a copper wire. Sending that electricity into a number of 20 foot container sized capacitors to heat up a body of water with red hot coils to drive a turbine to create consumable electricity.

 

Once the right economies of scale are worked out and problems sorted. Such plant could be replicated many times over.

 

You said it is uneconomical. With the ongoing sale of electricity versus the minimum ongoing yearly costs in comparison. How exactly would a Lightning electrical generating plant be uneconomical?

 

 

"You have to wonder how one of these would fair above a young forming hurricane."

No, I don't because I know about absorption of em radiation.

The answer is that the pulse would pretty much go straight through.

 

"how would a large electromagnetic pulse set off above the clouds shorting out the positive and negative clouds with one another fair?"

Why are you making up the idea that it would "short out the positive and negative clouds with one another" ?

Do you have a reason to think that's what would happen or is it just wishful thinking?

 

It would be uneconomical for the reasons given in the thread I cited earlier (and which you should probably have searched for before posting).

 

 

 

[Moontanman]

I think the idea that lightning is a significant part of the energy of a hurricane is flawed, hot moist air drives a hurricane not electrical charges. Electrical charges are a trivial side effect not the driving factor...

[a_tinkerer]

Is there anybody in this scientific community who believes a 'Lightning electrical generating plant' could possibly work? Please email me: Email removed by moderator.

 

 

With respect - Firing ironized lazers or electrical pulses into a hurricane and making consumable electricity from ironized lazers are two very separate topics in their own right.

 

What is am talking about is - Firing an ironized laser up through a small hole in large dense metal object to bring down a lightning bolt just as Nasa did with a copper wire. Sending that electricity into a number of 20 foot container sized capacitors to heat up a body of water with red hot coils to drive a turbine to create consumable electricity.

 

Once the right economies of scale are worked out and problems sorted. Such plant could be replicated many times over.

 

You said it is uneconomical. With the ongoing sale of electricity versus the minimum ongoing yearly costs in comparison. How exactly would a Lightning electrical generating plant be uneconomical?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[John Cuthber]

it's uneconomical for the same reasons as last time.

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/25695-lightning-as-an-energy-source/page__pid__711220__st__20#entry711220