Using data from the Nazis

[greg1917]

I can say nazism and the Third Reich was wrong because.... wait for it....... it murdered tens of millions of people, used its own popualtion as a human shield, destroyed vast tracts of europe, etc etc etc.

 

I do understand the nazi viewpoint and its insubstantial to justify the dark age they threw europe into. if you have any further queries, visit Auswitz and tell the people there its not corect to call the nazis evil.

[KHinfcube22]

Actually you can't saythe Nazis were "evil". In fact you could say they were hmanists, trying to save the world. You see, the did infact kill off over a million people. Thus lowering the population of the planet. And in doing so, slowing down the rate of growth that will in the end kill us all. They slowed down human hunger, and even made us get closer to world peace. The less people to ake peace with, the easier peace is obtained.

 

Do you see now why you can't justsay "This is the way it is"?

[greg1917]

Have you had a brain-arse transplant or have you just never read a history textbook in your life? Thats the most the moronic thing you've said to date (which is some achievement).

 

You see, the did infact kill off over a million people.

 

Did they? Bloody hell, I was labouring under the pretext 25 millions russians died due to road traffic accidents.

[JaKiri]

You're not getting this whole 'morality' thing are you?

[Sayonara]

Originally posted by KHinfcube22

Actually you can't saythe Nazis were "evil". In fact you could say they were hmanists, trying to save the world. You see, the did infact kill off over a million people. Thus lowering the population of the planet. And in doing so, slowing down the rate of growth that will in the end kill us all. They slowed down human hunger, and even made us get closer to world peace. The less people to ake peace with, the easier peace is obtained.

 

Do you see now why you can't justsay "This is the way it is"?

You aren't winning any 'smart points' you know.

[KHinfcube22]

I do agree with you all that the Nazis are evil. But Beauty is in the Eyes of the Beholder. Every is diffrent if you look at it diffrently. Some people out there could say Nazis were our saviors. But as everyone knows, history is written buy the winners. Thats all.

[greg1917]

The only people that would say the nazis are our saviours are skinhead morons who are a waste of oxygen in the grand scheme of things.

 

The Nazis thought they were a master race because of their deep rooted hatred of slavs, jews, any non-aryans and coloured people. This selfish, pathetic and counter productive ideology led to the Soviet Union opening an XXXXXL can of whoop ass on the Wehrmacht. Beauty may be in the eyes of the beholder but in the case of the nazis' eyes, they are severely, severely tinted.

[The dark lord]

Frankly, I hate Nazis and what they did! (My grandfather fought against them and he still lives to tell stories, he was a tank commander of the yugoslavian army)

 

But, i came to the conclusion that without wars we (human race) would be little developed both technologicaly and mentaly!

[Sayonara]

I'm not sure about mentally, but it is certainly true that wars, particularly those major international conflicts this century, have been responsible for vast advances in medicine, fabrication, metallurgy, geology, physics, data transfer, design, logistics... the list goes on and on.

 

However I'm fairly certain that the progress gained in these areas due to the war with Hitler's Germany was completely independent of the Nazis' human rights abuses.

[Star-struck]

The wrong thing done for the right reason is still wrong! The Nazi's certainly furthered science and medicine, and we can benefit from that, but their means and methods were disgusting. They regarded Jews and Gypsies as less than human and not deserving of ethical treatment. We know this to be flawed thinking. To say they were humanists is ridiculous. Humanism stresses an individual's dignity and worth. We would be foolish though not to let good come from this evil!

[atinymonkey]

Originally posted by KHinfcube22

I do agree with you all that the Nazis are evil. But Beauty is in the Eyes of the Beholder. Every is diffrent if you look at it diffrently. Some people out there could say Nazis were our saviors. But as everyone knows, history is written buy the winners. Thats all.

 

With your divorced outlook on the world in an isolated and obviously educationally deprived environment you might want to rethink your viewpoints. I realise you are attempting to provoke reaction with what you perceive to be a revolutionary viewpoint, however you are enforcing the perception that you have a very basic grasp on reality. In order to make any headway with this sort of idea you will need to overhaul your logical process and at least do some basic research on you subject.

 

Even basic research would show you that the history of the 3rd Reich is documented by the ex members of the Reich, such as Albert Speer. This is a very basic book used in modern history lesson.

[Sayonara]

Originally posted by Star-struck

They regarded Jews and Gypsies as less than human

Just out of curiosity... have you ever met any real continental European Gypsies?

[Star-struck]

I have not had the pleasure. Their extermination at the hands of the Nazis, in conjunction with the changing of the times, has relegated them to a few small droves. The advent of Hollywood has really taken it's toll on live performers. The modern world isn't really conducive to a nomadic lifestyle either.

[Sayonara]

Go to the middle of France and have a look - it's quite disturbing just how far from the romantic ideal they really are now.

 

They're neither nomadic nor performers - the French consider them to be gutter trash and in some respects they are. Or they would be if France had gutters, anyway.

 

Not that that's any excuse to exterminate their entire kind of course, but after sixty years you'd imagine they could have got their act together if they wanted to return to the old ways.

[Star-struck]

Very interesting. What is the overriding cause of their decay? Are they just lazy? Do they lack the desire to participate in society? Are they like other disenfranchised demographic groups in that they feel that they are owed a certain debt, based upon their past suffering, and, rather than partake in any betterment, spend their lives complaining that they have been victimized? The latter seems like a common mentality amongst groups that had once been dominated over by another.

[Sayonara]

I'm not entirely sure what the cause is. I think the lifestyle must be almost impossible to maintain as society becomes more information- and record-driven.

 

There does seem to be an element of "society should fix us" to it though.

[aman]

A lot of our fastest advances in technology like in Nazi Germany come with the sacrifice of morality for speed. I'm sure there was a point in our atomic technology that we knew radiation was harmful but didn't tell or protect workers. People were expendable but it's not so bad if they don't get sick until you don't need them anymore.

The East Asian area is a technological spearhead and also an enviromental disaster.

Slow development would be good for health but but bad in competition with others so The Nazis only showed that the less care for people and resources, the faster ideas can be made into reality.

It's not an example of anything good.

Just aman

[mooeypoo]

Wow. That is one POWERFUL debate.

 

I have to tell you that while I was reading it my grandmother sat behind me and read it too. She is a holocaust survivor, and my first instinct was to shift subject - knowing that since most of her family was sent to the death camps, this is probably one debate she doesn't want to participate in, but to my great surprise, we talked about it.

 

I have no idea what the rest of the world is being affected by the holocaust, I can only tell you about the way israelis - jews mostly of course - are affected by it. We have a major on it in high school, we study the war and the holocaust in DIFFERENT subjects, we talk about the horrors and terrible acts and we listen to testimonies from jews who passed this horror in person since we are very young.

We practically breath it - not in a sense that we think of it every day, but its definately there in the sense that when we see anything that reminds us of fascism or antisemitism, or neo-nazis, we shudder pretty badly.

 

Personally, I believe this subject should be studied at schools all over the world, if only for the meaning of making sure we learn from the past. But I don't believe in dwelling in it - we should stay careful and alert to dangers of repeating the past, but we shouldn't sink in it and make huge statements.

Still, I can fully understand and respect my grandparents when they tell me they can't visit Germany. Even if I plan to.

 

Coming back to the current subject:

 

It's a very hard and controversial debate indeed. During my talk with my grandma, we agreed to -- well not quite agree.

 

Regarding to the very powerful statement by fafalone about wanting to affect the world in a good way - well, my grandma said something sad, and true: The victims can't talk, can they?

It doesn't really answer the question, i know, but I had to share it with you.

 

About my own opinion.

 

I think it depends on how much the results of those experiments affect todays medicine. Every "experiment" should be concidered seperately, and gravely, deciding if the results bring more good than harm.

 

And people MUST remember how those results were made. They must remember the victims - because that's the most important thing.

 

By the way. There ARE live people who survived those horror experiments - not EXACTLY those, but mainly the twins - mendale twins, if you know of them. Those are still alive, and I've recently heard a particularly vivid interview with one of them.

 

I think human race should always aspire for progress and better medicine and helping the weak and sick. But after watching that woman speak - I just can't answer the ethical view of things.

 

I think you're right, the victims should at least get to help people... but hell. You just should have heard whatr that woman said.

 

And my grandmother, after we wrapped the subject up with a very nice "we can't really agree on either sides" ending, just looked at me with the saddest eyes I've ever seen, sighed deeply, and shrugged. "What was - is past, and we can't change history. The victims can't speak, but their voices is still heard."

 

I think we should just make sure those voices are heard no matter which way we chose.

 

~mooeypoo

[gene]

I think there is nothing wrong to be using the data. Since this holocaust thing happened, why not make use of it to humanity's benefit? Indeed, after the holocaust incident, we can learn many thing from it. It carries us out from the innocent and ignorance. Then, we are able to realise how important it is to limit power to one person. And so on ...

 

I totally with mooeypoo. We got to respect these victims from the ethnical point of view. But from the scientific view, we have to agree that these data are useful. Like what you all have been saying. Objective is the keyword. For such situation, we got to look at certain areas alone and give conlcusion. And not mix them all up, and then, the conclusion will be rather difficult to make.

[mooeypoo]

I have to say its the first time I hear anyone reffering to that awful genocide as "Holocaust Thing" and "Holocaust Incident".

 

Be well.

[helixrenovator]

The data may be slightly beneficial, though in my current mindset I cant directly make the connection. However, if you consider all the uproar it would cause amongst the populous, if the data were used, one begins to think it may not be worth it. There are alot of people who have suffered considerable loses in the holocaust, many still flinch at the mention of Hitler. If it was publisized that data from nazi experimentation was being idolized, a response far from euphoric who follow. Then again, it is only data. If someone can find a use for such material, I see no reason to stop them from doing this.

[ke86]

only data? are you crazy? most cloning kills babies.

[Sayonara]

Yes, it is only data. If you do not conduct, endorse or support the experiments why should you feel guilty about putting the information to good use?

 

"most cloning kills babies"

What?

[Skye]

Science and medicine have come a long way since WWII, and through all that time there has been an unceasing flow of casualties being given emergency care in hospital wards around the world. The efficacy of new knowledge, technology, drugs and procedures, that didn't exist in the Nazi era, have been tested under completely real conditions. The idea that the nazi data, which was not much more than well-documented torture and execution, can provide new insights seems absurd, and I don't see any reason for giving it a possible justification.

[Sayonara]

I think the idea that we probably know more than the Nazis did about the things they were researching is a given, but that's not the point of the thread.

 

The point here is whether we should discriminate against certain data sets just because we have ethical problems when considering the metadata.