EU

[Manfromzurich]

Will the EU ever go distroyed? The most Europeans aren't fan of the EU. As a Swiss I am mostly not fan about the EU because the EU is very undemocartic and has toooo burocratic(there is a law for the banans). And the EU has a big problem tooo handle with the souverenity of each European state.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Manfromzurich

[Phi for All]

I think the overall outlook for the global economy is looking pretty good, despite some bad spots that need special care. The EU is a good idea and I think that will be proven if they can weather the present crisis intact.

[Manfromzurich]

Good joke of you!

[Jens]

You should not forget, that it is very easy for local politicians to blame the EU for every thing they do not like.

Any proof that the EU is actually more bureaucratic than a government of a country, or a region within a country?

 

The pattern goes as follows:

The french government insisted to protect their caribean islands against bananas from Brazil.

Via the other governments they insisted for having this law introduced at an European level. (so you have a point about undemocratic structures, that's right).

Afterwards everybody is blaiming the EU for it (and not the french government).

 

How many consumer protection regulations (actuall it is anti-fraught regulations, from a moral point of view -- not from a legal one) which really affect the daily life have been done at EU level or at country level:

 

- EU stopped the fee ripp-off for cross country phone calls (obviously the free market did not work at all).

- same for bank transfer fees (same for the free market)

- stopped the completly weird system in Germany for the official monopol of chimney sweepers (which obviously the local government was not able to. Of course all the chimney sweepers (which risk to have competition now) will make their best to convince everybody that the new regulation is just a bureaucratic monster.

- similar thing for the mafia-like system controlling many of the harbours in southern Europe (also here the local government and the free market did not work)

- ....

 

of course it is not perfect.

 

By the way: How long do you think it will take before the french speaking and italian speaking "Kantone" in Switzerland will fall apart? I have heard there are a lot of arguments and the central Swiss Government is a very bureaucratic organization

Edited November 6, 2012 by Jens

[Manfromzurich]

@Jens

 

 

By the way: How long do you think it will take before the french speaking and italian speaking "Kantone" in Switzerland will fall apart? I have heard there are a lot of arguments and the central Swiss Government is a very bureaucratic organization

 

 

 

Never! The french-swiss and the ticinesi are insulted if you call them Italians or French people. They define themselfe as Swiss.

[Jens]

Never! The french-swiss and the ticinesi are insulted if you call them Italians or French people. They define themselfe as Swiss.

You are right.

Since you are living in Switzerland and I am not, you know it better. I was just making a joke

 

Another case where the EU fought against corruption -- even in Germany :

 

The German mainly publicly hold bank WestLB: Several years ago the bank got public real estate from the German region worth roughly 2 000 000 000 Euro for nothing. And the competing banks where claiming at the EU that the WestLB should pay for it, and the EU decided that they should pay a big percentage to the German Region. The German region insisted to not receive this money (yes, I am not kidding). What was not in the reportage, but what was most likely the reason behind: The boss of the bank convinced the politiciens that he is a ingenious investment banker and will make much more money out of this the the region will benefit from this because it holds the majority of the bank (actually interesting to see who held the rest of the bank... and what was the exact bonus system of the former boss of WestLB...). The German politicians made it happen that the EU decision was not applied. Unfortunately he was not a genius....and then came the bank crash... The people of this German region lost all of this money. So who is more bureaucratic?

Edited November 17, 2012 by Jens

[lowten]

Europe is a good ider that got out of hand

i am British and pro European but even i feel that the EU is going to far and has a lot unneeded crap. the constant moving between 2 country's for example is an unneeded expense and the common agriculture policy is a throw back to the past that is only there to keep the french happy.

there is also the problem of a common currency without a common fiscal policy.

 

despite all this the eu will survive but it whount be the same there will need to be a two level Europe

 

level 1 for the country's using the euro with closer political integration

level 2 for the country's like the uk who wish to keep they'er original currency

 

there also needs to much more democratic accountability with any country's in the level 1 group having a direct say on the fiscal polity that governs it. wile giveing the countrys in level 2 the option weather to follow the lead of the level 1 group on a case by case base.

[Jens]

@lowten:

I agree to all your points.

 

...besides that I think the EU is still making progress (even though very slowly).

 

Especially the Bologna Process to set up a framework which makes it easier for students to switch universities in Europe is a good thing. (Even though there are of course still a lot of universities, which try to do their best to make it impossible for students to go somewhere else after the bachelor.)

[CharonY]

Well, from a German viewpoint at least the Bologna process has a lot of disadvantages. One issue is that the German system was a more specialized system than the UK (or US) system and the Bachelor degree was a bit like an extended "abitur".

The now added bachelor and masters degrees are now a kind of hybrid which seemingly takes the bad of both systems. But for other countries this does offer benefits, of course. This is one of the benefits of the EU, of course. While some may have to take a hit on their end, other members may be brought to a higher standard, which could be harder to achieve alone.

 

On a different point, one has to acknowledge how much the EU has changed the perception of their member states to each other. Yes, due to the economic downturn there are issues, but just remember that there are no comparison to the tensions that would have existed just six or seven decades ago.

Edited December 10, 2012 by CharonY

[Tom_Sg]

I'm writing about the EU with a French point of view (even if I am not in France anymore) - for the education part, this is a shame to open our system (even if it needs some update) to the whole EU, because we had one of the hardest high school/university programme in the Europe (and I know my subject I am currently studying in uk) the only positive side is that we can travel easier than before and I think it's really important to be able to "move" as our society is not supposed to stay immobile. (especially for our scientists)

For the economy, well we should have done the same thing than the British and kept our own currency because we see our limit when a case comes up like the Greek one. I think people who are saying that the EU is making progress are not from the EU because you can see from the inside that it's the opposite, tension are higher than never - we accepted so many corrupted countries (Southern Italy, Eastern Europe, ...), all the money was wasted (you can check it on youtube the amount of report is legion). So now the only solution is to undo the EU or to clean it before getting trapped.

I don't really want to talk about loan and stuff because this is the biggest joke in our decade even the war in Irak wasn't that bad. (and NO I am not supported it, it's just 2nd degree).

 

P.S. Cameron wants to do a referendum about the EU. - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/9595656/David-Cameron-referendum-on-EU-is-the-cleanest-neatest-simplest-way.html

 

P.S.2 I am currently watching the nobel peace in Oslo .... Cameron is not there due to their argues on the new european budget.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Tom_Sg

[Prometheus]

I'm English and proud to be European.

[iNow]

Others have touched on this already above, but the main problem is really that they share one currency (which opens up great business opportunity and movement of goods across borders), but do not share a central fiscal decision making authority. The countries all still think of themselves as distinct and independent, but to have one currency and be successful the region must instead think of itself as one unified entity.

 

IMO, the primary fault is that they did not setup the IMF or ECB with enough power when the single shared currency was introduced. There needs to be a central governing body like the Fed in the US. A body like that could make the tough decisions... even helping Greece and Italy be fine by making Germany allow a bit more inflation and transferring a few lump sum cash flows into those other nations. Obviously, Germans are not terribly excited about that since it feels like they are being punished for their good behavior and smart economic decisions (which is understandable, but has nothing to do with it... they're just the only ones capable of doing what needs doing).

 

I don't think the Euro will break up, myself. If anything, I suspect the EU will centralize power and federalize. (sorry for focusing more on the money than other aspects... that's what I know more about)

Edited December 11, 2012 by iNow

[imatfaal]

iNow - agree that monetary policy needs to be more centralised for the enterprise to succeed. But we would also need to tackle fiscal and tax-raising policies on a group basis - a case in point, much of Ireland's woes were caused by the excessive spending (by both private and public sectors) in part to woo corporate entities and cause them to relocate in Ireland. Many companies did this to the detriment of other EU nations - but it didn't really benefit Ireland as their corporation tax is ludicrously low and the only parts of the corporations that moved to Ireland were the ultimate profit centres which employ precious few actual people. The same commentators who are throwing their hands up in disgust about starbucks, amazon et al avoiding corporation tax would have a hissy fit to end all tantrums if one suggested a flat rate of corporation tax across the Union.

[Tom_Sg]

Agreed. We should do like the Chinese do. We allow the foreigner brands to sell in EU (in the country) like Toyota/Sony/Bandai/..... (only example not really think about the relevantly) only if they had a local factory.

[iNow]

Definitely, the problems seem much more political than economic. With Ireland, that's a bit separate IMO and part of the issue is that the pharmaceutical industry setup camp pretty heavily there, to the point where they are responsible for something like 30-40% of all jobs in the country (I should validate that number, but I think that's what I remember reading recently). Now that the patents are expiring on many of those drugs and generic versions are coming out, those companies are cutting back and having a dramatic negative impact on employment overall.

 

Back to the EU, a breakup would economically disastrous in an already damaged and recession ridden economy, but a consolidation might be politically impossible given how extreme the views of the populace have become during these times of financial turmoil. I think Draghi and LeGarde are really bright, but I'm not sure they've been empowered enough to do the needful.

[Ophiolite]

I was amused by these two quotes:

 

I'm writing about the EU with a French point of view - for the education part, this is a shame to open our system (even if it needs some update) to the whole EU, because we had one of the hardest high school/university programme in the Europe

Tom_sg is clearly proud of the quality of French education. I was initially inclined to take him at his word, until I read his later comment.

 

all the money was wasted (you can check it on youtube the amount of report is legion). So now the only solution is to undo the EU or to clean it before getting trapped.

I am very suspicious of any educational system whose students believe that youtube is viable source of economic data.

[Tom_Sg]

For the first one, if you do not want to open this discussion with lecturers from USA/uk/France this is your choice, I did not say that by magic, they are not my words but I agree because I can compared.

 

For the second one, it is just to help you, because the media are forwarded on youtube, obviously you could go on website like the bbc or french media but you have to use the research button (as it will not be on the first page as some report are old) but if you want to go that way.

 

I'm waiting for your clever point of view, oh wait you didn't stated anything, could you try again?

 

I was amused by these two quotes:

 

Tom_sg is clearly proud of the quality of French education. I was initially inclined to take him at his word, until I read his later comment.

 

I am very suspicious of any educational system whose students believe that youtube is viable source of economic data.

[Ophiolite]

I'm waiting for your clever point of view, oh wait you didn't stated anything, could you try again?

 

Well Tom welcome to the forum. Perhaps I should have put in a to indicate I was being lighthearted. I thought my opening words "I was amused" might have been enough.

 

That said, for something as important as the claim you are making I would not find any media report to be sufficient. I would wish to see the peer reviewed academic study that demonstrated it.

[Manfromzurich]

''EU'' I must vomit as a Swiss.

 

 

We have a better currency with the most secure bank notes. We have better laws than the EU countries. We have the lowest unemployment rate and we are one of the wealthiest on this continent. And we have a very democartic and solid govrnement. EU is not good.

 

 

And we have the ETH of Zurich wich is ranked as the 12th best university and the ETH of Lausanne ranked as 40th.

 

 

EU should shut up their stupid mouth to say what we have to do and which laws we can have.

 

We have the strongest and best animal protection laws and the most strict laws for cattle breeding . We are until today the only country where it is illegal to have box chicken. Our farmers have the highes wage of all European farmers. If we would open our ariculture market, our farmers had big problems. I have ZERO intrest buy French milk or German meat.

 

Even the schengener dublin is not really good. Because of this, we have a lot of border French Italian or German people, who work in Switzerland and have a much time lower earning than a Swiss worker. That's called lohndumping. And that only cause we had entered into the schengener area.

 

 

There is NOTHING we had better if we would enter into the EU.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Manfromzurich

[CaptainPanic]

''EU'' I must vomit as a Swiss.

Good for you. It is very interesting to read an opinion. But I struggle to find a topic to discuss in your post.

 

Could you please provide your source and explanation for the following statements:

- how you rank your money, and the notes (what makes it "better")?

- how you rank your laws (why are they better, how to rate them)?

- university ranking (also, it would be interesting if you list all the EU-based universities in the top-50).

- how you rate the "goodness" of the EU and Switzerland?

- the fact that the EU has a mouth

- what the EU actually tells the Swiss to do?

 

To make a long story short, your post makes little sense to me, I'm afraid. It sounds like an angry rant, but maybe I misunderstood. Normally, we prefer posts of a slightly higher information density.

[Manfromzurich]

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2012-13/world-ranking

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2012-13/world-ranking/region/europe

 

'' the fact the EU has a mouth'', well this was a metaphor amd a personification of the EU institution.

 

 

Switzerland is better than the EU, because we have our debts under controll, rthey don't.

The Swiss anknotes are tho most secure notes of all. The have the most security printings, while the dollar notes only have few security prontings.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_printing

 

Very soon they will release new kinds of Swiss banknotes, which have again some additional electronic security printings.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Manfromzurich

[CaptainPanic]

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2012-13/world-ranking

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2012-13/world-ranking/region/europe

 

'' the fact the EU has a mouth'', well this was a metaphor amd a personification of the EU institution.

Aha!

 

So, if you just compare Switzerland to the Netherlands, and you focus only on your two best institutes, then the Swiss are awesome. But if you look at all the universities, then the Netherlands has a much more stable score. comparing the 3rd, 4th, 5th etc. universities between the Netherlands and Switzerland shows that the Dutch have pretty good universities too! It seems that the Swiss just put all their money on one horse, whereas the Dutch spread it out across multiple institutes.

 

Also, the Netherlands has far less mountains, which makes it better than Switzerland.

 

p.s. Fellow mods, I realize that we might want to open a separate thread on the awesomeness that is Switzerland. We're going off topic here.

[Manfromzurich]

Well I don't want to live in a country which is only sone meters above the sea, or even less meters than the sea level. You will have a lot of problems cause of global warming. And anyway I'm living in the Swiss Plateau and not in the Alps. And anyway we have the luck NOT TO BE in the EU, while the Dutch are in this mess.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Manfromzurich

[dimreepr]

The culture of each member state is “threatened” in the
minds of some of each nation’s populace, at least perceptively. Whilst the
reality may not be as dramatic as perceived it’s extremely difficult,
politically, to argue against the myriad of specious speeches levelled at the incumbent
governments especially in times of economic strife. This IMO will slowly
stretch the ties that bind the union, as evident in the recent promise of a
referendum (stay in or leave) in the UK.

 

The euro is a worthwhile step in the right direction, unfortunately
because not all members signed up and, as inow points out, doesn’t have a
central fiscal authority seems to be heading into deeper and deeper waters and treading
water can only work for a limited time.

 

So in answer to the OP I think it’s quite possible that the
union may disintegrate, despite the fact that it would be a disaster for the
region.

[zapatos]

Also, the Netherlands has far less mountains, which makes it better than Switzerland.

Ha ha. Great retort! +1