Why God Cannot Exist (logical proof)

[WWLabRat]

I like to think of God as a type of platform; it is what everything is in the image of to co-exist. An Operating System like Windows; everything therein must obey the laws of what it can operate. It's all windows. Therefore, we are all Gods, but there is, or was a greater God before us; the system itself. You can imagine this God as a type of life-force, but you wouldn't call it God, you would call it life or living. You should respect life more so than you should define life, it has many important associations that make it great and therefore it has great user-potential.

If everything is in the image of God, then why do we not all look the exact same? Think the same way? Do the exact same things? And if we are all gods, as you say, why am I not able to create an universe in six days and take the seventh one off?

 

If this is the type of god that's out there, then by murdering we are able to kill god. Does that really make sense? An all powerful being creates others like it but with the ability to be put down like Old Yeller? The god you describe doesn't seem very logical. Don't get me wrong, each is entitled to their own perceptions of the possibility of a deity and the personification of said deity, but for a being that would be able to create something as immense and deep as the universe and make it so that we already would know how to kill it... I don't know where I'm going with this other than to say it doesn't make any sense.

 

I think it is best left to the individual to define his / her belief system.

 

Each person has his / her own experience profile in life and views God differently.

 

If I say "God exists is false" , then if the statement is true, God does not exist and if God exists the statement is false. (circular reference).

 

It is difficult to make an assertion without proper knowledge.

 

It is better to live and learn and arrive at our own conclusions.

 

Which is worse an atheist or a fanatic?

 

That is a matter of debate.

 

 

 

- I agree

 

-If more people would think this way the world may be better off.

 

-Um.. Isn't this the whole debate? People can't decide whether or not a deity exists due to a lack of physical data...

 

-As with anything worth knowing.

 

-This is true.

 

-The polar extremes of either can be just as damaging, so I think it's a bit subjective.

[s1eep]

 

God does not exist, but the meaning of God exists. All being in this universe, is, and it can be interpreted as an individual. It is omnipotent, it is omniscient. We are an example of its omniscience, we know the rest of God; consciousness is the force which is always anticipating or sensing God. We possess the wisdom to comprehend God.

Modern Christians are misled fools; they do not take into account the “Chinese Whispers” factor that played a part in the Bible, and the religions, descent. They follow an edited, deformed, Christianity, thinking that the bible it is ultimate truth; and being fed Christian realities from higher ranking priests and patriarchs who profit from their stupidity.

The debate of Christianity versus Atheism is an unfair debate. Modern Christians are deluded. They do not follow the same objective as the ancients, or any true Christian organization throughout history; they are not educated enough to speak for God, or argue for God. They have done no work by themselves to understand God; they follow an old report.

 

Most Christians do not even understand the metaphors in the bible. They believe they are being told about a God in the sky, literally, instead of a God in the sky metaphorically. It leads them to follow pictures of God as a male man with a kingdom in the clouds. They are completely dream-world creatures who do not tackle the observation of nature.

Humans are enslaved by words. Christians, being natural scientists, would have been rational with the word. They are the types who used to own farms and have families that were not allowed to watch TV, or connect to social networks such as fame; and were brought up to be more outgoing naturally without influence from man-made social reality. Christians based most of their beliefs around family orientation – the child was above the adult, nature, reality. Nature was also part of the family; humans are directly related to the beginning of time, we have distant relatives.

Atheists are the same as Christians; they do not try to reason with the bible and instead attack its semantics. It was an attempt at science, but in older times they were more character-based, and used metaphors to teach wisdom to people. The job selection was not so complex – we did not have such specific education. We were simplifying life in ways that we could understand. We were learning how to tackle the environment as civilized people, and it helped us to bond.

You should think about how people like Mayans were acting, or other very religious peoples throughout our timeline, they respected nature to the highest degree; they did not waste like humans do today. While Christians are lost in their dream-world, real-world problems are occurring which are overlooked because the righteous Christianity is nullified by stupidity. The correct wisdom is not taught into reality, people are stupid and easily misled. I suppose this makes us spend more money or follow laws and logic that aren't natural, or fair, or possibly acts of great evil to enslave us.

You do not properly support the Child.

You do not properly support future generations, that’s how little you care about the child.

You do not properly support Nature or the survival of Nature.

You are so insignificant you cannot even see how insignificant you are.

Believe me, Modern Christians are stupid. And people, for that matter, because of your inaction, or wise inaction.

Edited October 30, 2013 by s1eep

[Phi for All]

Modern Christians are misled fools; they do not take into account the “Chinese Whispers” factor that played a part in the Bible, and the religions, descent. They follow an edited, deformed, Christianity, thinking that the bible it is ultimate truth; and being fed Christian realities from higher ranking priests and patriarchs who profit from their stupidity.

The debate of Christianity versus Atheism is an unfair debate. Modern Christians are deluded. They do not follow the same objective as the ancients, or any true Christian organization throughout history; they are not educated enough to speak for God, or argue for God. They have done no work by themselves to understand God; they follow an old report.

 

Most Christians do not even understand the metaphors in the bible. They believe they are being told about a God in the sky, literally, instead of a God in the sky metaphorically. It leads them to follow pictures of God as a male man with a kingdom in the clouds. They are completely dream-world creatures who do not tackle the observation of nature.

 

Humans are enslaved by words. Christians, being natural scientists, would have been rational with the word. They are the types who used to own farms and have families that were not allowed to watch TV, or connect to social networks such as fame; and were brought up to be more outgoing naturally without influence from man-made social reality. Christians based most of their beliefs around family orientation – the child was above the adult, nature, reality. Nature was also part of the family; humans are directly related to the beginning of time, we have distant relatives.

 

Atheists are the same as Christians; they do not try to reason with the bible and instead attack its semantics. It was an attempt at science, but in older times they were more character-based, and used metaphors to teach wisdom to people. The job selection was not so complex – we did not have such specific education. We were simplifying life in ways that we could understand. We were learning how to tackle the environment as civilized people, and it helped us to bond.

 

You should think about how people like Mayans were acting, or other very religious peoples throughout our timeline, they respected nature to the highest degree; they did not waste like humans do today. While Christians are lost in their dream-world, real-world problems are occurring which are overlooked because the righteous Christianity is nullified by stupidity. The correct wisdom is not taught into reality, people are stupid and easily misled. I suppose this makes us spend more money or follow laws and logic that aren't natural, or fair, or possibly acts of great evil to enslave us.

 

You do not properly support the Child.

You do not properly support future generations, that’s how little you care about the child.

You do not properly support Nature or the survival of Nature.

You are so insignificant you cannot even see how insignificant you are.

Believe me, Modern Christians are stupid. And people, for that matter, because of your inaction, or wise inaction.

 

 

!

Moderator Note

Per SFN Rules 2.1c, "Slurs or prejudice against any group of people (or person) are prohibited". Please refrain from using language and arguments that attempt to pass judgement on groups of people.

 

Also, you seem to proselytize a great deal about a religion you've made up so you can pass more sweeping judgements about everyone but yourself. This violates our rule 2.8 against preaching. It's impossible to have a fruitful discussion with someone who can't be wrong by his own definition. Please find a better way to communicate your arguments.

 

Do NOT further derail this thread by discussing this modnote. If you have a problem with it, please report it.

[Didymus]

Petru, don't forget there are extremes to both sides.

 

There are rational theists and atheists and there are fundamentalist fanatic theists and atheists.

 

Fact is, there are a lot of interesting guesses about where the universe came from and where life came from. We could all be strings or we could all be loops or we could all be vibrations in dimensional branes or we could have been put here by one alien or another. But at best, the evidence for any theory is shady and circumstantial. You can have faith in whatever seems best to you.

[Lightmeow]

Some one needs to read the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy:

 

Proof: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," say Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't though of that" and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

[Alan McDougall]

1. http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/top-ten-failed-proofs-god-existence/
   
2. Shifting the Burden of Proof - I know God exists. If you disagree, prove otherwise. Oh you say you can't prove God doesn't exist? That's because you know he does!
   
3. Argument from Popularity - The vast majority of the world believes in God. This supports the universal truth that God is real, otherwise it makes no sense that so many people would believe.
   
4. The Transcendental Argument - God is, by definition, a being greater than which nothing can be conceived (imagined). Existence in reality is better than existence in one's imagination. God must exist in reality; if God did not, then God would not be that than which nothing greater can be conceived (imagined).
   
5. Argument from Coercion - You must believe in God/Jesus. It's your only hope for salvation. We are all doomed if we don't accept Jesus as our personal savior. It says so in the Bible. If you want to live forever and avoid suffering, you must accept God.
   
6. First Cause Argument - Everything that exists in our world is the result of some sort of "first cause" which brought about its existence. Therefore, there must have been a force which created the universe. That "first cause" is what we call God. Also known as Cosmological Argument.
   
7. Argument from Authority - God is real because the Bible (or whatever sacred text you believe in) says so. Why would so many people write so much about God if it wasn't true?
   
8. Argument from Personal Experience - I know god exists because I can feel him. I know it in my heart; he talks to me; I feel his strength and existence flow through every fiber of my being.
   
9. Argument from Improbability - The second law of thermodynamics says matter inevitably becomes entropic (spreads out in chaos) and this defies the observation on Earth where we see, things becoming more organized. Therefore God is responsible.
   
10. Pascal's Wager - It is a "safe bet" to believe in God just in case he is real. What's the harm? If you believe and he doesn't exist, you don't lose anything, but if you don't believe and he does exist, you lose big time.
    
11. Argument from Design - If you found a watch on the ground, you never met the watchmaker, but you know from its design, the beauty of it; the way each piece was intricately designed to work together, that this watch had a creator. Theists point to the human body; the precise way each of our organs work with each other and claim it's the most amazing "creation" of all, and surely there was some sort of creator behind it.
    

[Peter BE cimp]

To refute the existence of God, I must first define what I mean by God. It seems to me that God, defined in the broadest terms, is simply: the origin of all that exists. I think most theists could agree with this basic definition (with the exception of Mormons, who believe God to have evolved from a human being). It presupposes nothing of God's alleged qualities such as omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience. Neither do we presume any attributes to God such as personality, gender, emotions.

 

Having defined God as that which is the origin of existence, we naturally move to our second definition: what is existence? Again, we will go for the broadest definition possible and say that existence is anything within space-time (including space-time itself). This definition covers not only what exists at present, but all that has or ever will exist. It includes not only the physical realm of sensible phenomena, but all that is metaphysical as well; since even something as impalpable as a thought must take place within a period of time and must arise from a brain which occupies space.

 

Having defined our terms, we will proceed with the following arguments:

• God is the origin of all that exists.
• All that exists, exists within space-time.
• If 1 & 2 are true, then God is the origin of space-time.
• If 3 is true, God cannot be within space-time.
• If 2 & 4 are true, God cannot exist.
• Therefore, God does not exist. God transcends existence.

So there you have it. God is a self-refuting concept.

 

The way you put your list together could be used in anything to prove anything. For example:

1. Everything is made of atoms.
2. All atoms are made of tiny electrical things.
3. If 1 is true then rocks are made of atoms.
4. If 1 is true then chicken nuggets are made of atoms.
5. If 2 is true then microscopically, rocks and chicken nuggets are made of the same thing.
6. If 1, 2, and 5 are true, then you can eat rocks, and they will be exactly like chicken nuggets.

Although you tried to make the argument simple and strait forward, it was too generally put together, and there for unsuitable for the question at debate.

 

I really don't know if your statements are factual or not, but I would like to interject this thought.

Other than those with a deep and abiding faith in a supreme entity none of us have a clue as to whom or what GOD is. Many scientists, unlike their religious counterparts have physical evidence that can be looked at as shiny beacons leading away from a creator. But is it that easy to differentiate between the two without a wealth of further and future knowledge? A diehard atheist simply believes there is no GOD, while the agnostic is hoping the atheist is wrong. Religious sects laugh, knowing that through their faith and prayer; GOD is supreme. So, where are we with this dichotomy? Floundering in a sea of doubt? I’m an agnostic lost somewhere in the middle. In other words, I’m damned if I do and damned if I don’t. Of course I believe in science since it covers fields involving many brilliant people. But what if GOD is that unfathomable Intermediary joining both sides of the coin?

There are no actual atheists, because to be an atheist is to believe there are/is no God or gods at all. However, people who say they're atheist, if they are to do anything, would have to think that they are their own god, because if you want to do something, there has to be a force to make you do it, whether that be a God type figure, giving you life and energy to do the thing, or your own taking in of energy and your brain controlling your body to do the thing, and, in that case, making you your own god, and making you not an atheist (what you would be called is beyond me).

 

The analogy of the house was logical because the house exists in its own space. The house does not exist anywhere else then where it is, and everything that is physically in the house and everything that makes up the house exists where it is and no where else (unless you believe in alternate dimensions). With God existing outside of space-time and still existing, it's like how I exist outside of my house. Say my house is space-time, it is made of stuff and it has stuff inside of it. The stuff inside of it cannot be the stuff that makes the house, and vice-versa. I coexist with everything in my house, and with my house itself and everything that makes it up. I can go into my house and exist inside my house, not being part of my house, and not being part of the things in my house, and I can go outside my house and exist outside my house, without being part of my house. All though this is a very crud analogy, God coexists with space-time, but he is not part of space-time. God is not one of the components that make space-time, like how I am not one of the components that make up my house. I can be inside my house, and not be part of my house, and I can be outside my house. God can be inside space-time, without being part of it, and He can be outside of it as well, and still not be part of it.

[Moontanman]

There are no actual atheists, because to be an atheist is to believe there are/is no God or gods at all. However, people who say they're atheist, if they are to do anything, would have to think that they are their own god, because if you want to do something, there has to be a force to make you do it, whether that be a God type figure, giving you life and energy to do the thing, or your own taking in of energy and your brain controlling your body to do the thing, and, in that case, making you your own god, and making you not an atheist (what you would be called is beyond me).

You have a faulty understanding of what atheist means and an unwarranted assumption what a god is and that something has to motivate you in some mysterious way, it's chemistry all the way down... I am an atheist, that means i do not accept the evidence presented so far for the existence of god, it means nothing else...

 

The analogy of the house was logical because the house exists in its own space. The house does not exist anywhere else then where it is, and everything that is physically in the house and everything that makes up the house exists where it is and no where else (unless you believe in alternate dimensions). With God existing outside of space-time and still existing, it's like how I exist outside of my house. Say my house is space-time, it is made of stuff and it has stuff inside of it. The stuff inside of it cannot be the stuff that makes the house, and vice-versa. I coexist with everything in my house, and with my house itself and everything that makes it up. I can go into my house and exist inside my house, not being part of my house, and not being part of the things in my house, and I can go outside my house and exist outside my house, without being part of my house. All though this is a very crud analogy, God coexists with space-time, but he is not part of space-time. God is not one of the components that make space-time, like how I am not one of the components that make up my house. I can be inside my house, and not be part of my house, and I can be outside my house. God can be inside space-time, without being part of it, and He can be outside of it as well, and still not be part of it.

Do you have any positive evidence for god or just this tired old PRATT?

[Peter BE cimp]

Explain to me what you mean by PRATT, and I'll give you a better response than this, but my evidence for God is the complexity of life, and how the stuff that was written in the Bible, mainly the Old Testament prophesies, came true. First, in the Bible, in Amos 9:15, Amos predicted that the Jew's would be restored as a nation and would never be uprooted again. This came true 1948 when the country Israel was created. Many times have the surrounding countries tried to take Israel back, but none have succeeded. Another prophesy that came true was that Ezekiel tells about the fall of the great city Tyre, claiming that the Lord “will cause many nations to come up against thee,” (Ezekiel 26, 27).This was fulfilled in 586-583 BC when Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, lays siege against the city. This was again fulfilled in the 370s BC when a king of Cyprus conquers the city. Later in 332 BC Alexander the Great conquers the city. Then in 315-316 BC Antigonus, who served under Alexander, attacks and conquers the city. In 1124 the city fell to the Crusaders. And then in 1219 the city fell to the Muslim armies of the Mameluke. One more that came true, in Mathew 24:9, Jesus says that His disciples will be persecuted and hated by the majority of peoples for fallowing him. According to BBC, Christianity is now the most persecuted religion in the world. And for the complexity of life, I think of how spiders make webs. How something so small it's barely visible could make such a complex and strong structure as a web; how, if it were put together any other way, it wouldn't work, because with spider silk glands, everything has to do exactly what it does to make the silk, and if one thing didn't work, none of it would work. All of the above things are plenty of proof for me and many other people that God exists.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Peter BE cimp

[Moontanman]

Explain to me what you mean by PRATT, and I'll give you a better response than this,

PRATT, Points Refuted A thousand Times

 

but my evidence for God is the complexity of life,

Nothing but an argument from ignorance, I can't see how it can exist naturally therefore god...

 

and how the stuff that was written in the Bible, mainly the Old Testament prophesies, came true. First, in the Bible, in Amos 9:15, Amos predicted that the Jew's would be restored as a nation and would never be uprooted again. This came true 1948 when the country Israel was created. Many times have the surrounding countries tried to take Israel back, but none have succeeded. Another prophesy that came true was that Ezekiel tells about the fall of the great city Tyre, claiming that the Lord will cause many nations to come up against thee, (Ezekiel 26, 27).This was fulfilled in 586-583 BC when Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, lays siege against the city. This was again fulfilled in the 370s BC[/size] when a king of Cyprus conquers the city. Later in 332 BC[/size] Alexander the Great conquers the city. Then in[/size] 315-316 BC Antigo[/size]nus, who served under Alexander, attacks and conquers the city. In 1124[/size] the city fell to the Crusaders. And then in 1219 t[/size]he city fell to the Muslim armies of the Mameluke. One more that came true, in Mathew 24:9, Jesus says that His disciples will be persecuted and hated by the majority of peoples for fallowing him.

What about all the prophecy that didn't come true? what about all the prophecy that came true for other religions?

 

 

According to BBC, Christianity is now the most persecuted religion in the world.

Nothing but argument from authority, can you give any evidence this is true? Considering that Christianity is the largest and does it's share of persecuting other religions this seems to be something that needs to be backed up.

 

And for the complexity of life, I think of how spiders make webs. How something so small it's barely visible could make such a complex and strong structure as a web; how, if it were put together any other way, it wouldn't work, because with spider silk glands, everything has to do exactly what it does to make the silk, and if one thing didn't work, none of it would work. All of the above things are plenty of proof for me and many other people that God exists.

All those are explainable by natural methods, irreducible complexity isn't a proof of anything...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity

Edited March 5, 2014 by Moontanman

[Peter BE cimp]

All of the things you said are good arguments, and quite honestly we could be going back and forth at this for the rest of this site's existence, but for all the prophecies that haven't been fulfilled, if you believed in what the Bible says, you'd know that they haven't been fulfilled YET, and that they are going to in the future, before and when Jesus comes back. For the prophecies of other religions, mainly Islam, all of the prophecies that came true are either the same as Christian prophesies; the Quran says that Israel's people would be able to go back to their own land, . Or the prophesies were all ready coming true or all ready true by the time they were being prophesied; the Quran prophesied fingertips ("Their skins will bear witness against them as to what they have been doing" (41:21), pollution ("Corruption has spread on land and sea because of what men's hands have wrought" (30:42), and mountain tunnels ("And when the mountains are made to move." (81:4). And as a little side note, more Christian predictions have come true then any other religion's. For Christianity being the most persecuted religion, just Google "What is the most persecuted religion?". And for irreducible complexity, yes they are explainable, but that doesn't back up your argument. You can explain why something is what it is, for instance, you can explain why oranges are coloured orange, but you can't explain why oranges aren't blue, or purple. You can explain why gravity pulls you down, but you can't explain why it doesn't throw you out, and why it doesn't work in reverse. For my "argument of ignorance", my ignorance has given me hope in life, and a good set of rules to live by. Now I ask what do you live for, because I live for a better purpose, one that could easily make everyone happy if they'd listen to it. Before you comment back on this, please just think about my arguments. Research them, see how realistic they are, and find as many faults as you can, because the more you point out my flaws, they more I'll learn what I can fix. And please this time give more thought into your arguments.

 

And also, for the Christians that persecute others, I try not to think of them as true Christians. The Bible says to live with love, witch they are not, so I don't accept them as my brothers and sisters, that my opinion though.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Peter BE cimp

[Ringer]

All of the things you said are good arguments, and quite honestly we could be going back and forth at this for the rest of this cite's existence, but for all the prophecies that haven't been fulfilled, if you believed in what the Bible says, you'd know that they haven't been fulfilled YET, and that they are going to in the future, before and when Jesus comes back. For the prophecies of other religions, mainly Islam, all of the prophecies that came true are either the same as Christian prophesies; the Quran says that Israel's people would be able to go back to their own land, . Or the prophesies were all ready coming true or all ready true by the time they were being prophesied; the Quran prophesied fingertips ("Their skins will bear witness against them as to what they have been doing" (41:21)[/size], pollution ("Corruption has spread on land and sea because of what men's hands have wrought" (30:42)[/size], and mountain tunnels ("And when the mountains are made to move." (81:4)[/size]. And as a little side note, more Christian predictions have come true then any other religion's.

Do you have the numbers for this? If you make a factual statement like that you have to back it up with evidence.

 

For Christianity being the most persecuted religion, just Google "What is the most persecuted religion?".

Maybe they're just the loudest in 1st world countries.

 

And for irreducible complexity, yes they are explainable, but that doesn't back up your argument. You can explain why something is what it is, for instance, you can explain why oranges are coloured orange, but you can't explain why oranges aren't blue, or purple. You can explain why gravity pulls you down, but you can't explain why it doesn't throw you out, and why it doesn't work in reverse. For my "argument of ignorance", my ignorance has given me hope in life, and a good set of rules to live by. Now I ask what do you live for, because I live for a better purpose, one that could easily make everyone happy if they'd listen to it. Before you comment back on this, please just think about my arguments. Research them, see how realistic they are, and find as many faults as you can, because the more you point out my flaws, they more I'll learn what I can fix. And please this time give more thought into your arguments.

Yeah, people can explain those much better than just going, 'magic'. Most people are fine without the ignorance, so why would you think that you couldn't be happy without being ignorant?

 

And also, for the Christians that persecute others, I try not to think of them as true Christians. The Bible says to live with love, witch they are not, so I don't accept them as my brothers and sisters, that my opinion though.

Except where it tells you to persecute others.

[Peter BE cimp]

For proof, the Quran was started in 609 AD (or CE), and was finished 632 AD. By that time, I'm pretty sure everyone had finger prints, the first mountain tunnel was built and completed in the 6th century BC, people have always dumped their waste in rivers and oceans; people would use rivers as a toilette and a way to get rid of dead bodies. And also the Bible says the exact same thing; that the Israelites would have their own land. For the prosecution, they also must be the loudest in 3rd world countries because Christians in most of Africa and India and other third world countries are being persecuted as well.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#Current_situation_.281989_to_present.29

 

Also what does being the loudest have anything to do with anything anyways? If religions aren't speaking up about their being persecuted, then it's obviously not as bad as they say it is. For Christians, it is that bad; we get sued for having our faith here in America, other Christians get beat, tortured, and killed in third world countries, and personally I'm constantly getting harassed by people who have no idea what they're talking about just so they can say they're "helping society" (granted I'm still in high school).

 

I was being sarcastic when I called it my ignorance, but to answer your question, what's better for you; knowing that your government kills people because they say their secrets, or would you rather just not know about the secrets in the first place? Would you be happier if you knew that your government wasn't perfect, or that it can't really protect you as well as you think, or would you rather just not think about it at all? Although I was joking by calling it my ignorance, that ignorance helps me not to be worried or stressed out all the time. You might not be stressed out by knowing the flaws of this world, and personally I'm not either because it's all just sin, but other people are constantly paranoid about the government because they think it'll fail at anytime or it'll go on a population control killing spree.

 

Finally, where in the Bible does it say to persecute others? I've been quoting the Bible, giving you specific verses, and I've been giving you versus from the Quran, so give me a specific verse that tells Christians to persecute people, maybe you're reading it wrong/taking it the wrong way.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Peter BE cimp

[Alan McDougall]

Site Peter not cite

[mooeypoo]

Christianity the most persecuted religion?? Wow. A little case of history forgetfulness here. But this is off topic, so maybe we could open a new thread about this, if one insists.

 

 

Finally, where in the Bible does it say to persecute others? I've been quoting the Bible, giving you specific verses, and I've been giving you versus from the Quran, so give me a specific verse that tells Christians to persecute people, maybe you're reading it wrong/taking it the wrong way.

 

Well.

 

Deutronomy 17: Kill anyone who's worshipping other gods

2: If there be found in the midst of thee, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that doeth that which is evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing His covenant,

3: and hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, or the sun, or the moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have commanded not;

4: and it be told thee, and thou hear it, then shalt thou inquire diligently, and, behold, if it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel;

5: then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, who have done this evil thing, unto thy gates, even the man or the woman; and thou shalt stone them with stones, that they die.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt05.htm

 

1 Samuel 15: God commands genocide (you should read the whole chapter, but here are the highlights)

3: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.' {S}

 

 

But Samuel feels sorry for some of the sinners, so he spares their lives and some of the goats lives. God isn't amused:

 

9 But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, even the young of the second birth, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them; but every thing that was of no account and feeble, that they destroyed utterly. {P}

10 Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying:

11 It repenteth Me that I have set up Saul to be king; for he is turned back from following Me, and hath not performed My commandments.' And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

...

...

17 And Samuel said: 'Though thou be little in thine own sight, art thou not head of the tribes of Israel? And the LORD anointed thee king over Israel;

18 and the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said: Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.

19 Wherefore then didst thou not hearken to the voice of the LORD, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst that which was evil in the sight of the LORD?'

...

23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as idolatry and teraphim. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, He hath also rejected thee from being king.'

24 And Saul said unto Samuel: 'I have sinned; for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words; because I feared the people, and hearkened to their voice.

...

32 Then said Samuel: 'Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites.' And Agag came unto him in chains. And Agag said: 'Surely the bitterness of death is at hand.' {S}

33 And Samuel said: As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal. {S}

 

Exodus 17 God promises he will wipe out all traces of amalek.

14 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Write this for a memorial in the book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.'

 

 

Leviticus is full of "whoever doesn't obey, kill them" rules. Chapter 20 especially.

 

Also, take a look at this list: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/1sam/int_list.html

 

 

So, there's no doubt the biblical god is a god of war and quite a lot of intolerance. I didn't even get into violent acts done against "his own people" for disobeying rules.

 

That said, I am not entirely sure how this affects any logical proof for the existence of god, or lack thereof ..?

[John Cuthber]

 

 

For Christians, it is that bad; we get sued for having our faith here in America.

 

Finally, where in the Bible does it say to persecute others?

Please cite evidence of Christians (or any other religious group) being sued for their faith. (In the US or, if you like, elsewhere in the Western world)

Moooey has given some nice examples of where the Bible commands that Christians kill large groups, but remember it also tells to slay individuals for various crimes- notably being rude to their parents or being homosexual.

 

Have you actually read the bible?

Edited March 5, 2014 by John Cuthber

[mooeypoo]

Please cite evidence of Christians (or any other religious group) being sued for their faith. (In the US or, if you like, elsewhere in the Western world)

Moooey has given some nice examples of where the Bible commands that Christians kill large groups, but remember it also tells to slay individuals for various crimes- notably being rude to their parents or being homosexual.

 

Have you actually read the bible?

I can give those examples as well, if you want. I skipped over those because I thought the focus was on genocide.

[John Cuthber]

I can give those examples as well, if you want. I skipped over those because I thought the focus was on genocide.

I agree, but I didn't want the others overlooked.God seems to be an (almost)equal opportunity hater.

There seem to be very few people He likes.

 

I was wondering if Peter had read the Book. He seems to have missed those bits

[Peter BE cimp]

Oh you means the bits in the Old Testament, when people weren't saved by Jesus' death on the cross. Yes I have read those bits, and I've read the New Testament, where people don't have to die for their sins. For an "expert" you don't know much about giving a full-proof argument. And for that very first comment Miss Pwnies, did you look up what the most persecuted religion was, or did you just go with the obvious second choice of Judaism? Because I include the early parts of Judaism when I say Christianity is persecuted (although when I first said it I meant now a days, not through out history). Judaism was what started Christianity, and if we were talking about all the persecution through out history, Christianity, including while it was Judaism, is more persecuted than just Judaism as we know it today.

 

Finally, for Christians being sued, do you ever watch the news? Or do you just watch the faulty area based news? Because multiple times there have been news reports of so and so getting brought to court for not selling something to a gay person/couple. For instance: Jack Philips, the owner of the Masterpiece Cakeshop in Colorado, refused to give a wedding cake to a same-sex couple who wanted to celebrate their wedding. Jack Philips was brought to court and the ALJ ruled against Jack.

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/12/06/3035121/colorado-bakery-broke-law/# for the full story.

 

Also, Barronelle Stutzman, a florist in Washington, was sued for refusing a gay couples wedding, saying that her belief in jesus did not allow her to provide flowers for the wedding.

http://www.advocate.com/politics/marriage-equality/2013/04/10/washington-state-sues-florist-refusing-gay-couples-wedding for more.

 

And one more Bakery... http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/01/21/christian-bakery-guilty-violating-civil-rights-lesbian-couple/

 

But I didn't post this to offend any of the gay community; although I disagree with your decision, I don't want to stone you for it (because we're not living in the New Testament!!!). I have many gay and lesbian friends that are very close to me, I think that it is very much your option to be gay or lesbian or bi, and I feel terrible for you when I see fellow Christians say the degrading things that they do; I'm not trying to be like them, I'm just trying to get my point across.

[Moontanman]

Oh you means the bits in the Old Testament, when people weren't saved by Jesus' death on the cross. Yes I have read those bits, and I've read the New Testament, where people don't have to die for their sins. For an "expert" you don't know much about giving a full-proof argument. And for that very first comment Miss Pwnies, did you look up what the most persecuted religion was, or did you just go with the obvious second choice of Judaism? Because I include the early parts of Judaism when I say Christianity is persecuted (although when I first said it I meant now a days, not through out history). Judaism was what started Christianity, and if we were talking about all the persecution through out history, Christianity, including while it was Judaism, is more persecuted than just Judaism as we know it today.

 

Finally, for Christians being sued, do you ever watch the news? Or do you just watch the faulty area based news? Because multiple times there have been news reports of so and so getting brought to court for not selling something to a gay person/couple. For instance: Jack Philips, the owner of the Masterpiece Cakeshop in Colorado, refused to give a wedding cake to a same-sex couple who wanted to celebrate their wedding. Jack Philips was brought to court and the ALJ ruled against Jack.

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/12/06/3035121/colorado-bakery-broke-law/# for the full story.

 

Also, Barronelle Stutzman, a florist in Washington, was sued for refusing a gay couples wedding, saying that her belief in jesus did not allow her to provide flowers for the wedding.

http://www.advocate.com/politics/marriage-equality/2013/04/10/washington-state-sues-florist-refusing-gay-couples-wedding for more.

 

And one more Bakery... http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/01/21/christian-bakery-guilty-violating-civil-rights-lesbian-couple/

 

But I didn't post this to offend any of the gay community; although I disagree with your decision, I don't want to stone you for it (because we're not living in the New Testament!!!). I have many gay and lesbian friends that are very close to me, I think that it is very much your option to be gay or lesbian or bi, and I feel terrible for you when I see fellow Christians say the degrading things that they do; I'm not trying to be like them, I'm just trying to get my point across.

What about the prophecy where Jesus claimed he would return in the life times of his apostles?

 

How can someone not being allowed to use their religion to discriminate against someone else be persecution? Whites used to use their Christian Faith to support their god given right to discriminate against black people too.

[Sato]

I don't know if anyone's posted about it yet, but origin here is a bit ambiguous and I think undermines the correctness of this proof. You state that if god is the origin of all that exists (1) and all that exists, exists in space time (2), then god is the origin of space-time (3), which is logically sound (assuming (2) is axiomatic, pertaining to the definition of existence in religion), but you follow with "thus god cannot be in space-time" (4), which is incoherent. An origin is a certain temporal position that serves as the first part of some chain of causality, just as my house one second ago is the origin of my house right now, but is still considered of my house existing in space, just in a previous temporal position, and a ball falling down at 1 meter is the cause of a ball falling down at 2 meters from the ground, but this system is certainly a part of space-time.

 

Conclusion/TL;DR: So the proof fails at (4) as, as you describe it, even crediting god with the adjective "origin" which explicitly refers to a characteristic unique to events in space-time, a temporal precursor, the first three statements imply that goes does indeed exist within space-time contrary to statement 4.

 

Note that I am an agnostic-atheist and this is in no sense an advocation of of the existence of god, but you'd have better luck establishing a logical proof for the existence of something like that than against.

[Moontanman]

All of the things you said are good arguments, and quite honestly we could be going back and forth at this for the rest of this site's existence, but for all the prophecies that haven't been fulfilled, if you believed in what the Bible says, you'd know that they haven't been fulfilled YET, and that they are going to in the future, before and when Jesus comes back. For the prophecies of other religions, mainly Islam, all of the prophecies that came true are either the same as Christian prophesies; the Quran says that Israel's people would be able to go back to their own land, . Or the prophesies were all ready coming true or all ready true by the time they were being prophesied; the Quran prophesied fingertips ("Their skins will bear witness against them as to what they have been doing" (41:21)[/size], pollution ("Corruption has spread on land and sea because of what men's hands have wrought" (30:42)[/size], and mountain tunnels ("And when the mountains are made to move." (81:4)[/size]. And as a little side note, more Christian predictions have come true then any other religion's. For Christianity being the most persecuted religion, just Google "What is the most persecuted religion?". And for irreducible complexity, yes they are explainable, but that doesn't back up your argument. You can explain why something is what it is, for instance, you can explain why oranges are coloured orange, but you can't explain why oranges aren't blue, or purple. You can explain why gravity pulls you down, but you can't explain why it doesn't throw you out, and why it doesn't work in reverse. For my "argument of ignorance", my ignorance has given me hope in life, and a good set of rules to live by. Now I ask what do you live for, because I live for a better purpose, one that could easily make everyone happy if they'd listen to it. Before you comment back on this, please just think about my arguments. Research them, see how realistic they are, and find as many faults as you can, because the more you point out my flaws, they more I'll learn what I can fix. And please this time give more thought into your arguments.

 

And also, for the Christians that persecute others, I try not to think of them as true Christians. The Bible says to live with love, witch they are not, so I don't accept them as my brothers and sisters, that my opinion though.

BTW, you might want to look into some religion besides the ones of Abraham, there are other older and just as well documented religions around the world that have prophecies that have been fulfilled and those that are yet to be fulfilled as we as those that are obviously never going to be fulfilled. Your Abrahamic mythos has no particular advantage over any of them and is no more accurate than any of them. Your religion like all others is supported by nothing but baseless claims, assertions, and a book.

 

If you have any positive, testable, evidence i suggest you give it or admit you have belief and faith but nothing else...

Oh yeah and that last, "No true Scotsman fallacy" straight up nothing more...

[Ringer]

For proof, the Quran was started in 609 AD (or CE), and was finished 632 AD. By that time, I'm pretty sure everyone had finger prints, the first mountain tunnel was built and completed in the 6th century BC, people have always dumped their waste in rivers and oceans; people would use rivers as a toilette and a way to get rid of dead bodies. And also the Bible says the exact same thing; that the Israelites would have their own land. For the prosecution, they also must be the loudest in 3rd world countries because Christians in most of Africa and India and other third world countries are being persecuted as well.

And so are many other religions,

 

Also what does being the loudest have anything to do with anything anyways? If religions aren't speaking up about their being persecuted, then it's obviously not as bad as they say it is.

Or they're being persecuted badly enough that they can't freely make websites to talk about how persecuted they are.

 

For Christians, it is that bad; we get sued for having our faith here in America, other Christians get beat, tortured, and killed in third world countries, and personally I'm constantly getting harassed by people who have no idea what they're talking about just so they can say they're "helping society" (granted I'm still in high school).

No, you don't get sued for your faith. What will get one sued is owning a business (therefore agreeing to follow the laws governing businesses) then breaking discrimination laws. If you really want to pull that card, there are states that won't allow an atheist to hold some public offices.

 

I was being sarcastic when I called it my ignorance, but to answer your question, what's better for you; knowing that your government kills people because they say their secrets, or would you rather just not know about the secrets in the first place? Would you be happier if you knew that your government wasn't perfect, or that it can't really protect you as well as you think, or would you rather just not think about it at all?

I'd rather know about problems so they can be fixed. I'm not going to get on an airplane if the mechanic says, 'well do you really want to know if there's a problem?'

 

Although I was joking by calling it my ignorance, that ignorance helps me not to be worried or stressed out all the time. You might not be stressed out by knowing the flaws of this world, and personally I'm not either because it's all just sin, but other people are constantly paranoid about the government because they think it'll fail at anytime or it'll go on a population control killing spree.

And those people are ignorant about how governments work, so their ignorance is making them paranoid.

 

Finally, where in the Bible does it say to persecute others? I've been quoting the Bible, giving you specific verses, and I've been giving you versus from the Quran, so give me a specific verse that tells Christians to persecute people, maybe you're reading it wrong/taking it the wrong way.

Well the OT verses given by Mooey, remember Jesus says he isn't overturning OT laws Matthew 5:18-19 - “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

 

We also have Matthew 10:14-15, 10:21, 10:35-37, 11:20-24 etc. for talking about killing are battling with those who don't believe.

[mooeypoo]

Oh you means the bits in the Old Testament, when people weren't saved by Jesus' death on the cross.

I always love hearing this excuse; yes, everything in the old testament is tossed out when Jesus came.

 

Except for that bit about homosexuals. That stayed.

Oh, and those 10 commandments. We want those too.

You know, maybe we should keep those laws about adultery, just in case.

Maybe some other things from Leviticus... 'cause, you know, those ancient Israelites did a good job phrasing...

 

But Jesus' words invalidated the laws of the old testament!

... Except for the ones they didn't.

[Peter BE cimp]

For Pwnies, false, the bit about homosexuals changed as well. It is true that the Bible advocated the killing of homosexuals and of disobedient children, how ever, this is because we ere in the Old Covenant. Again, this is because Jesus' died for out sins, and since He did, we are now under New Covenant, one that doesn't have such harsh punishments. In Luke 22:20 Jesus says "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood." The 10 commandments were a basic set of rules that were not subject to the fact that people were and are sinful, and correct me if I said that wrong, but what I mean is that since people in the Old Testament were not saved by Jesus' blood, they still needed to give sacrifices (which was part of the Old Covenant) and they needed to kill anyone that God told them to, i.e. cities, homosexuals, fallen children, ect. (which was also part of the Old Covenant). The 10 commandments were not part of the Old Covenant, and there for stayed active during the time of Jesus and after his death and resurrection. If you need proof of Jesus being resurrected, then I honestly can't give you a definite answer. However, I can give you proof of the Bible's historical accuracy, which I'm sure you can all look up when ever you want, but in the mean time, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_the_Bible. Moontanman, please give me a religion that I can look into that has more prophecies that came true then the bibles. And finally, Moontman again, for your two questions at the bottom of your first comment, the first one, according to the Bible Jesus did walk the Earth during the time of His apostles, when he resurrected, and so far, the Bible has been correct about so many things, my thoughts are it would be foolish to discredit the rest. (Read that wiki page.) For the second question, please explain more what you mean. And finally for the slavery comment, that was because of people changing the words around, or leaving parts out of the Bible, so they could be justified. The Bible does say slaves do what your master says, but it also says masters be kind to your slaves. Not to mention that slaves back then weren't anything like the slaves we had here. Slaves back in Bible times had nothing to do with race, instead they chose to be slaves to have a place to live. America has been the only country to have slaves based on race. Slave owners would use the Bible verse Ephesians 6:5, "slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling", but would purposely leave out verses such as Colossians 4:1, "Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven."