Dolphin Intelligence

[Blackfin]

Eckerd College, right here in St. Pete. Or the University of Miami. Depends on who accepts me and how far in debt I wanna get before I turn 20. :3

[coquina]

I haven't been to St. Pete - but I have been to Ft. Meyers, Sannibel & Captiva, via motorhome. We spent the millenium New Year there. It's a beautiful place.

 

I live near Williamsburg, VA, home to the College of William and Mary. It's marine biology branch is VIMS - Virginia Institute of Marine Biology. I've been a boater all my life - the Cheasapeake Bay is in my backyard.

 

Checking out for tonight... welcome to the forum. Did you post in the "Introduce Yourself" thread? It's not mandatory - but it's kinda nice to know a little about the person who's posting.

[Blackfin]

I'll go pop over to that thread and post, then. :3

[Hellbender]

You know, the problem here is that we are comparing apples and oranges. A human uses its intelligence to solve human problems, dolphins and other animals use their intelligence to solve their particular sets of problems.

 

Thank you!!! This is what people muct keep in mind in discussions about animal intelligence.

[Mokele]

John Lilly attempted this with his JANUS project in the early 1980's. In theory, yes, it's possible - if we had a proven mathematical theorem for the dynamics of language. I don't think we've got technology that advanced yet, however.

 

Neural network computers might be able to do something interesting, since they "learn" on their own. It'd be interesting to see what such a "learning" computer would do if hooked up to sound recorders and synthesizers, and allowed to interact with dolphins.

 

Mokele

[coquina]

Neural network computers might be able to do something interesting, since they "learn" on their own. It'd be interesting to see what such a "learning" computer would do if hooked up to sound recorders and synthesizers, and allowed to interact with dolphins.

 

Yes, it would.... I wonder what the dolphins would make of a machine that could talk to them? I have this picture in my mind of the machine launching a fish at them when they do what it wants.

[Blackfin]

Dolphins kind of have double jeopardy working against them. On one side, there are fishermen who view them legitimately as competition for their catch. Fishermen conveniently forget, of course, that apex predators like dolphins are important because they keep the catch there in the first place. No predators -> population explosion of prey -> overexploitation of resources -> massive die off. Try explaining to a fisherman that he will make a few thousand dollars less in fish so he can have fish to catch in the future, and he will tell you he has to feed his kids NOW. There is no easy solution.

 

On the other hand, thanks our wonderful friends at Anheuser Busch, most of the public now views dolphins as Disneyfied saviours of the seas. Shamu and Flipper are gentle, happy souls put here on Earth to help people! Go swim with the dolphins. You'll learn the secrets of the universe. (This is ironic, because in 1998 a man trespassed into Sea World Orlando after dark to go swimming the orcas and was found dead and naked draped over the dorsal fin of the large male, Tillikum, the next morning. So much for swimming with whales, huh?)

 

The truth is that trainers have not swam with the big male orcas for at least the past ten to fifteen years, due to cases of aggresion towards trainers - i.e. more than one trainer being drowned.

 

Dolphins are smart, and as a result, dangerous. Remember the whole thing about dolphins liking eating fish and having sex with other dolphins? Well, they're also curious, and may view a floating human as an interesting, if clumsy, living toy. People either want to kill dolphins, or go up to them and give them a hug. Neither is the correct approach.

 

But, asking people to view an organism realistically and objectively would be too much. This is why sharks are still struggling for protective legislation, because people just don't like them the way they love Shamu.

[coquina]

I did read that there was a resort in the Bahamas whose beach area was frequented by a male dolphin, and that it had to be removed elsewhere when it had obviously amorous intentions towards the female swimmers. I think that was in a past issue of "Sea Frontiers".

[Blackfin]

Why do you think they won't let pregnant or menstruating women swim with the dolphins at Discovery Cove here in Orlando? The smell of hormones in the water drives the dolphins a little nutty, and they can get playful - and a swimming torpedo with a baseball bat for a nose is a bad thing to have playfully pushing and shoving you around.

[coquina]

Why do you think they won't let pregnant or menstruating women swim with the dolphins at Discovery Cove here in Orlando? The smell of hormones in the water drives the dolphins a little nutty, and they can get playful - and a swimming torpedo with a baseball bat for a nose is a bad thing to have playfully pushing and shoving you around.

 

I've read that the appendage on the other end is the size of a baseball bat too. Definitely a NoGo situation, rhetorically and physically.

[Hellbender]

Dolphins are smart, and as a result, dangerous. Remember the whole thing about dolphins liking eating fish and having sex with other dolphins? Well, they're also curious, and may view a floating human as an interesting, if clumsy, living toy. People either want to kill dolphins, or go up to them and give them a hug. Neither is the correct approach.

 

I could imagine dolphins like orcas being dangerous, but not bottlenose or common dolphins, I would love to be in the water with them. Orcas kind of scare me though.

 

 

But, asking people to view an organism realistically and objectively would be too much. This is why sharks are still struggling for protective legislation, because people just don't like them the way they love Shamu.

 

Its also hard for people to anthropomorphisize sharks. They aren't mammals, they don't communicate and they known to be dangerous, eating machines. To be honest, I would rather be in the water with a dolphin than a bull shark, no matter how much I love sharks. I could understand why people wouldn't care if they all were killed off, until there was an ecological disaster. Maybe Disney movies like "A Shark's Tale" could be good for something?

[Auburngirl05]

Why do you think they won't let pregnant or menstruating women swim with the dolphins at Discovery Cove here in Orlando? The smell of hormones in the water drives the dolphins a little nutty, and they can get playful - and a swimming torpedo with a baseball bat for a nose is a bad thing to have playfully pushing and shoving you around.

 

I read somewhere that there's evidence that a dolphin's echolocation can make it aware of whether a woman is pregnant or not. I'm admittedly not very well read on marine biology so I'm not sure if that's correct, but I thought the possibility was pretty interesting.

[Newtonian]

I could imagine dolphins like orcas being dangerous' date=' but not bottlenose or common dolphins, I would love to be in the water with them. Orcas kind of scare me though.

 

 

 

 

Its also hard for people to anthropomorphisize sharks. They aren't mammals, they don't communicate and they known to be dangerous, eating machines. To be honest, I would rather be in the water with a dolphin than a bull shark, no matter how much I love sharks. I could understand why people wouldn't care if they all were killed off, until there was an ecological disaster. Maybe Disney movies like "A Shark's Tale" could be good for something?[/quote']

I dont mean to be impolite,but your posts shows you nothing about dolphins,and even less about sharks.

On the whole i find you a much better insulter than a contributer,perhaps you should stick to what you excell at.

[Hellbender]

I dont mean to be impolite' date='but your posts shows you nothing about dolphins,and even less about sharks.

On the whole i find you a much better insulter than a contributer,perhaps you should stick to what you excell at.[/quote']

 

And you contributed sooooo much to this discussion.

 

No, calling me stupid and saying I contirbute nothing to these forums and flaming me left and right isn't impolite. Damn me for thinking so. I never talk about sharks or cetaceans because the topic never comes up, or at least it hasn't in the time I've been a member. And what posts show I know nothing about sharks and whales? I have actually done a lot of reading about the former, and a little less about the latter. So unless you become a moderator, I think you should shut up and keep your negative opinions about other members to yourself.

[Hellbender]

Another thing: Why did you feel it necessary to come out of the woodwork, to reveal (rudely) your opinion about me? Did I do something to you in the past? Have any of my posts ever offended you? I doubt it.

[coquina]

Take a deep breath and start over.

 

There are things that are worth arguing and making enemies over, and there are things that aren't. Trust me .. this one isn't.

 

Try to state your viewpoints. If you disagree with someone else's, point out where you believe they are in error, but be civil about it.

 

Some of you have had many jobs, a lot of you are starting out. One of the things you have to learn is to express your opinion without being nasty. Your employer will never look favorably on a childish attitude, even if you are right.

 

So - straighten up and fly right, or I will fly right out of your monitor and snatch you bald headed.

[john5746]

Nope, get used to it. Your boss will be a blithering idiot who will treat you like a moron. Lunch is the time to go out with your friends and have a great B**** session. Reality bites.

 

This will happen at least one time in your career!

[Sayonara]

I dont mean to be impolite' date='but your posts shows you nothing about dolphins,and even less about sharks.

On the whole i find you a much better insulter than a contributer,perhaps you should stick to what you excell at.[/quote']

Congratulations, you are now on a post-by-post watch.

[Newtonian]

Another thing: Why did you feel it necessary to come out of the woodwork, to reveal (rudely) your opinion about me? Did I do something to you in the past? Have any of my posts ever offended you?

Sorry Hellbender,though i have never called you stupid.I am out of order.I took exception to the way you flippantly dismiss others posters opinions,in a few threads.The fault lies with me and my perceptions of you,which on the whole are not justified.

I tend to view people as wrong not idiots(and offer help whenever i can) and everyone deserves respect.A few are young here and that should be taken into consideration,when compiling you rebuttals.

I hope this apology in someway, makes up for the animosity i have shown you.And forgive my injudicious replies to you.

[Aardvark]

Does anyone have any rule of thumb definition of intelligence we could use?

 

I know that intelligence is difficult to quantify or to exactly define but are their any broad principles anyone could offer?

 

I was thinking something along the lines of social complexity, problem solving abilities and the understanding of abstract concepts. Of those i would consider the understanding of abstract concepts to be the most important.

 

Any comments or suggestions?

[Newtonian]

Any idea's Peels.

[Peels]

How intelligent are dolphins?

 

The short answer to this is that we do not know. There is no reliable method to measure intelligence in humans across cultures, so it is not surprising that comparing humans, dolphins, apes, dogs, etc. is impossible. There are some indications of their potential: they are fast learners and can generalize (which is also true of pigs, BTW). Also they can learn to understand complicated language-like command (which is also true of the great apes).

 

How do dolphins communicate; do they have their own language?

 

Dolphins communicate mainly by means of sounds. These sounds include whistles, but also so-called pulsed sounds, which are often described as squawks, barks, rasps, etc. But they also use breaching (jumping and falling back into the water with a loud splash) and pectoral fin (or flipper) and tail (or fluke) slaps (hitting the flipper or fluke on the water surface). Body posturing and jaw popping also have a role in communication. This list is not exhaustive.

 

As for language, we do not know if they have one. Several studies have demonstrated that dolphins can understand a structured language like ours. This same has been demonstrated for a number of other animals species as well (gorilla, bonobo, California sea lion, parrot). Some studies also indicate that dolphin vocalizations are complex enough to support some form of language. However, to date it has not been demonstrated yet that they indeed use a language for communication among themselves.

 

Source: http://www.dolphinear.com/de-dolfaq.htm

[Hellbender]

Sorry Hellbender' date='though i have never called you stupid.I am out of order.I took exception to the way you flippantly dismiss others posters opinions,in a few threads.The fault lies with me and my perceptions of you,which on the whole are not justified.

I tend to view people as wrong not idiots(and offer help whenever i can) and everyone deserves respect.A few are young here and that should be taken into consideration,when compiling you rebuttals.

I hope this apology in someway, makes up for the animosity i have shown you.And forgive my injudicious replies to you. [/quote']

 

talk about a backpedal.

 

Apology accepted, and I am sorry if I come off that way. I only flippantly dismiss posters when I don't think it is worth talking about. Sometimes I have to wonder if people are joking. In the ghosts topic you will notice I was debating, not flippantly dismissing, same with the Uri Geller topic. I do my research and present evidence like everyone else. If that doesn't agree with your viewpoints I am sorry, but I will try to do my best to not seem condescending to anyone.

[Ophiolite]

Does anyone have any rule of thumb definition of intelligence we could use?

Rightly or wrongly it is going to come back to language. We judge people's intelligence' date=' to a great extent by their fluency with language. [Like man, heh, you dig me, OK, yeah. Right on.'] Until we can communicate at a more advanced level than "bring me the big object, the round one" , most will disparage claims for significant non-human intelligence, or will make indefensible claims in the opposite direction.

What intrigues me is what this may say about our prospects of communicating with intelligent aliens should we ever encounter them. If we can't exchange the time of day with a creature who shares most of our DNA, what chance a star-traveller?

[coquina]

I wish I could evesdrop on a podular confab...

 

"I wish those damn humans would shut up that infernal racket."

 

"Yeah - they set off another one of their hellish explosions in the vicinity of my nephew's pod, and now the whole group has echo-location disorder. - You have to be within a mile and practically squeal in their ears before they hear a thing."

 

"Bumbling idiots."