Unacceptable

[michel123456]

"I have deleted you last post"

???????

 

This is unacceptable!

 

--------------

Note: change your signature! the forum has been upgraded, no + sign anymore but arrows.

Edited December 7, 2012 by michel123456

[Phi for All]

Not sure where you saw this, but there are only a few situations where this is ever warranted.

 

We'll delete a post if it's extremely offensive and might cause parents of younger members to take away SFN as a learning resource.

 

We'll delete a post rather than suspend someone if they continue to argue against modnotes instead of following the instructions we give them to report the modnote post and let another staff member take care of it without further derailing a thread.

 

We'll delete a post if it's strictly advertising another thread that person is trying to drive traffic to.

 

Other than that, of course we delete obvious spam. What post are you referring to?

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

This was split from http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/70595-what-generates-gravity/ because, like the deleted post that prompted it, it is off-topic for that thread

 

Enforcing the rules is unacceptable? Surely, you jest. The rules state that posts violating the rules can be deleted, and a long diatribe about getting a moderator note directed at you is decidedly off-topic, and thus against the rules. (specifically, rule 5) As is a post complaining about how this is unacceptable, so I split this off to a place where it is at least not a hijack. Deletion would have been an option, were I not involved in the original discussion, but I would have had to make my case with my fellow moderators first. This is faster.

 

Edit: Phi was quicker on the trigger. It's option b.

[michel123456]

I am afraid this is what happens when the policemen and the judges are the same individuals.

 

-----------------

(edit)

In order to put things in context:

-this is a split exactly from before Moey mod note.

[url=http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/70595-what-generates-gravity/?p=717362

 

-"this is unacceptable" is a copy-paste of previous Imatfaal's mod note(post#66).

 

Edited December 8, 2012 by michel123456

[swansont]

I am afraid this is what happens when the policemen and the judges are the same individuals.

 

What of it? It's not like that situation is unprecedented or even rare. If someone visits your property, are you not both the policemen and the judge if they behave poorly?

[iNow]

Michel - It's a privately owned site and you agreed to certain things when you created your account here. It's really that simple. The mods and admins could replace every post you ever make with a picture of handicapped toddlers licking dog dicks in a horse barn if they really wanted to do so (they obviously wouldn't, but the point is that they can do any damned thing they want to your posts because these are not "your posts," but instead content that belongs to the forum).

 

Your recourse is to accept that sometimes content will be removed for reasons the staff deems appropriate, or alternatively to just go away and not post here anymore. There really isn't a lot of room in between those two options, so you have to choose.

Said another way... If it is truly "unacceptable," then you can stop accepting it.

[Phi for All]

I am afraid this is what happens when the policemen and the judges are the same individuals.

Individuals, plural. We're not all of the same mind, no matter what you may think.

 

And we don't choose staff based on how much we think alike. We have a very broad range of knowledge and personalities. You don't see it but behind the scenes is almost constant discussion of judgement calls. There are no willful staff members who get to push their decisions through with no regard for any dissenting opinions.

 

I know it's very satisfying to cry censorship in these situations, but it just doesn't happen. We have probably the best mix of perspectives and intelligence among the moderators and resident experts that we've EVER had. I'm very proud of what this staff accomplishes for nothing more than the promise of extra work and some virtual cheesey crackers. They don't even require your gratitude.

 

The benefit of the doubt would be nice though.

[michel123456]

As a simple member of this forum, what I would accept is:

 

"We deleted your post"'

 

I propose the following: create a new account called "moderators staff" and use this one when you want to delete someone's post. Then it will be clear that it not the act of any Imatfaul or other, but the result of some concertation between the staff members, a collegial work.

 

And why is Imat hiding behind the protection of other mods. Is he too young and feable to defend himself?

[swansont]

If a moderator went rogue, it would be noticed and dealt with.

 

I have to admit that calling out a mod, combined with the insinuation that we're both vindictive and a bunch of bumblers is putting a rather bad taste in my mouth, and make me even less inclined to care if the moderation here is done to your satisfaction.

 

An action like this is done with the consensus of several moderators. One of them then acts, doing their job. In that circumstance, a challenge to that mod is a challenge to all of us, and I'm going to have that mod's back. I'm sorry that you don't understand that kind of behavior.

[Phi for All]

As a simple member of this forum, what I would accept is:

 

"We deleted your post"'

OK, I concede this would be more appropriate.

I propose the following: create a new account called "moderators staff" and use this one when you want to delete someone's post. Then it will be clear that it not the act of any Imatfaul or other, but the result of some concertation between the staff members, a collegial work.

Some might argue that a single mod was abusing his power and hiding behind a collective account. I don't see this solving any perceived problems.

 

We use our personal accounts because it's important that a mod who is involved in a thread doesn't try to moderate in that thread. If I post a modnote, it should be clear that I have no vested interest and as little bias as possible with regard to that thread.

And why is Imat hiding behind the protection of other mods. Is he too young and feable to defend himself?

I recommend you smiley when you say something like that.

 

[michel123456]

If a moderator went rogue, it would be noticed and dealt with.

 

I have to admit that calling out a mod, combined with the insinuation that we're both vindictive and a bunch of bumblers is putting a rather bad taste in my mouth, and make me even less inclined to care if the moderation here is done to your satisfaction.

 

An action like this is done with the consensus of several moderators. One of them then acts, doing their job. In that circumstance, a challenge to that mod is a challenge to all of us, and I'm going to have that mod's back. I'm sorry that you don't understand that kind of behavior.

(bolded mine)

In this specific situation, it was not clear.

Show me your Mods conversation and I'll stop immediately.If you don't,... I'll also stop.

 

In short:

I hate when posts are deleted. Phi is asking "What post are you referring to?", and no-one can answer the question because the post has been deleted. Was it option A, B, C, we don't know because the post has been deleted. It is insane.

What is the gain in deleting a post? To close our eyes? to close your eyes? Why don't you put it in the trash can for example where one can find much worse examples of bad behaviour?

----------------

Edited for smiley.

 

 

Edited December 8, 2012 by michel123456

[Phi for All]

(bolded mine)

In this specific situation, it was not clear.

Show me your Mods conversation and I'll stop immediately.If you don't,... I'll also stop.

 

In short:

I hate when posts are deleted. Phi is asking "What post are you referring to?", and no-one can answer the question because the post has been deleted. Was it option A, B, C, we don't know because the post has been deleted. It is insane.

What is the gain in deleting a post? To close our eyes? to close your eyes? Why don't you put it in the trash can for example where one can find much worse examples of bad behaviour?

----------------

Edited for smiley.

 

 

We don't really delete anything. It's hidden from normal viewing, in this case because it was another off-topic explanation about why this member's speculation should be allowed in a mainstream thread when he'd already received a couple of modnotes asking him not to. It was done as an alternative to suspending him, to show him that arguing modnotes in thread was going to get him nowhere. He had been told how to deal with his grievance and ignored it so his next attempt was deleted.

 

And now you've come along and made an entire thread about it, when as a long-time member you should know that our process is as fair as we can make it. I understand you have very little trust in our moderation and suspect us of all kinds of foul deceit and censorship because we're all just closet dictators and the owners of the site are completely blind and have no idea what's going on with our evil cabal. We really appreciate you keeping us honest and looking out for the rights of the other members. You are a beacon of decency and we really don't deserve to have you. Thanks for policing us evildoers. Next time we'll just suspend the perpetrator and forget trying a more nuanced approach.

[Klaynos]

Mod action is logged and checked. We watch each other and discus actions, nearly always before action is taken (exceptions include strongly offensive material, obvious spam, or simple modnotes where other action is unlikely, or where things will et worse without some quick action - these will all be reviewed and discussed ASAP), sometimes this makes us appear slow, which for the most part I'd rather we were and correct rather than fast to act and often wrong.

 

An example, I made a modnote earlier, it's a pretty routine matter (you can probably find it if you're that interested), the first thing I did after posting it was report the post about which I'd added the note so that my action can be reviewed by the other mods.

 

A communal mod account would remove a level of the accountability that currently exists. And add a level of hassle that would damage the quality of the moderation.

 

As moderators we do not always agree, but I think we normally manage to understand each others point of view and come to some consensus. That consensus is what we stand behind because it is for the best of the community (I'd hope, else we'd argue even more!).

 

This discussion forum is a private forum, we do not need to justify our actions to you, nor anyone else other than those who own the site. Having said that there is far far far more interaction, discussion and openness here both between the staff and the general membership than any other community I've been part of. I remember one where I was staff with one of the other staff here where suspending/banning a member for questioning a moderator would have been considered an ok move... I strongly disagree with such action, but if we made all of our discussions public then the forum would be constantly full of arguments.

 

What is required is trust, you need to trust that the staff are trying to facilitate discussion with a friendly, accepting community, that follows the rules, if you cannot trust us to do that then I'm not sure what we can do/how we can help.

[swansont]

(bolded mine)

In this specific situation, it was not clear.

 

Not clear to you, but then, that isn't a criterion in the process.

 

Show me your Mods conversation

 

No, that's not going to happen.

 

 

In short:

I hate when posts are deleted. Phi is asking "What post are you referring to?", and no-one can answer the question because the post has been deleted. Was it option A, B, C, we don't know because the post has been deleted. It is insane.

 

Phi asked because your response had just been split off, and my post had not yet appeared. You do know it was option b, because I told you.

 

What is the gain in deleting a post? To close our eyes? to close your eyes? Why don't you put it in the trash can for example where one can find much worse examples of bad behaviour?

 

One motivation is the broken window theory

[imatfaal]

As a simple member of this forum, what I would accept is:

 

"We deleted your post"'

 

I propose the following: create a new account called "moderators staff" and use this one when you want to delete someone's post. Then it will be clear that it not the act of any Imatfaul or other, but the result of some concertation between the staff members, a collegial work.

 

And why is Imat hiding behind the protection of other mods. Is he too young and feable to defend himself?

 

Because I see no reason to defend myself. Moreover, I find your regular complaints (about the forum, about the members and about me personally) tiresome and tendentious; so, frankly, I ignore them on the whole.

 

And I also do not believe in acting with an impersonal "we the moderators" - if the action is correct then it is correct whether it is in the name of an individual moderator or masked behind a veil of collective responsibility.