Why do some religious people require that the "end is near"?

[tar]

It does not even make any sense to imagine an "end" to a universe where it is already evident that it must take "at least" scores of billions of years for happenings at one end, to "reach" the other. The universe has no way to "end" at the same moment.

 

So the desire for personal "knowledge" of the "end" of the universe must be a psychological, whim, of some sort, and might indicate a desire to project ones own evident mortality on the universe. It is hard to admit to oneself, that life will go on, without you.

 

But the universe has shown some rather strong stay-to-itiveness and does not appear to have a way to suddenly cease operations.

 

I would say it is completely clear, that no one around here will be able to witness the last act. (not even Krauss, a non-religious person)

 

Regards, TAR2

[Moontanman]

Christian fundamentalists use this ploy to scare people into coming to god, I have heard the end is near all my life, I don't mean years from now but it was always signs and portents show the end i coming soon and we all must be ready, it could happen tonight!!!

 

A group associated with a church I went to when I was a kid pulled off the old disappearing hitch hiker scam, it went on for several weeks, people would report they picked up a hitch hiker on the WV turnpike and the hitch hiker would ride in silence for a few minutes then suddenly shout Jesus is coming soon and disappear from the back seat of the moving car.

 

It was exposed as a hoax after a couple of people admitted they had been put up to it by a revivalist preacher looking to fill his tents with paying customers... .

[tar]

Moontanman,

 

Understood.

 

But many people are intrigued with the Mayan, "end of a cycle" type of ending. What is our requirement for such punctuation marks on existence, based on?

 

Regards, TAR2

 

Why do we feel any ownership of or responsibility to the next act...after our own body/civilization/solar system ends its existence?

Edited December 8, 2012 by tar

[iNow]

Why do we feel any ownership or responsibility to the next act...after our own body/civilization/solar system ends its existence?

 

I'd posit an evolutionary cause. Those animals with a strong will to survive through the last several million years... the life forms with a deeply embedded desire to carry on and continue forward and to be alive... tended to reproduce more successfully than those that gave up or abandoned hope at every little tiny challenge. Those that feared death and those that refused to let death win tended to live longer and have more offspring... offspring that share that genetic will to live and survive. This will to carry on and continue forth and survive has become so consistently selected that I suspect it manifests itself now as a belief in life after death.

 

If our entire being is permeated with a will to survive, a refusal to let life's obstacles cause life to end, then it is not a huge mental leap forward to think that life will also continue when the body shuts down... Hence belief in souls and afterlife and ghosts and all of those other things that people think come when the machines in the hospital stop beeping and pumping.

[tar]

Inow,

 

Sounds like a good posit, to me.

 

So we have a "real" understanding of "our" life (children and others of similar gene), going on foward, after our "machine" dies.

Does sound somewhat spiritual though. And somewhat similar to definitions of "soul" or essense of a human being, that I have heard and pondered before.

 

If you and I are aware of this "soul" and see it as natural, and some others are aware of this soul and call it supernatual, it still could be the same soul, or spirit, or "greater than an individual" will that is being understood. And the differences in Dawkin's 1 to 7 scale, where believers in God and non-believers are sorted out into their very sure and somewhat sure slots, seems to describe more one's personal approach as to how to relate to a such a globally understood "human" awareness of a"greater will", than it does challenge the actual existence of this will.

 

The differences between the 1s and the 7s is thusly not so much a difference in fact or truth, as it is a difference in the language and symbols used to frame the situation, and a difference of opinion as to who or what holds this soul, and is responsible for it.

 

For instance, I call myself an atheist, but I am not a believer in "the ghost in the machine" way of looking at our souls. I think it evident that me and my "machine" are one in the same, and I will thusly take complete responsibility for its existence, and consider it "mine", along with an appropriate association to the rest of universe that is "similar" in nature, or laid the groundwork for my existence (ancestors), or supports my existence (family, friends, society), or otherwise makes my existence possible (other lifeforms to eat, air to breath, Sun to warm, Earth to stand on, etc.)

 

But I don't see how this sorts me into or out of any of the 7 theist-atheist slots. Its just sort of true, and the same truth holds, for "others" than me.

 

As to the OP, in this, "fully understand" would be a goal for anyone, from 1 to 7 on the scale, and not limited to certain portions of the scale.

 

Regards, TAR2

 

Whoops, this is my thread I am in, I was carrying another in mind as well.

As to this OP I would say, Inow, that you have answered why we do not think it will end, with our machines death, but you have not forwarded why or how we need to also consider an end to greater existence.

Edited December 8, 2012 by tar

[iNow]

I think moontanmans answer was appropriate. Such an assertion that the end is near is a great recruiting tactic to scare more sheep into the flock.

[tar]

But what is the draw? I don't quite get it. Why is it better to imagine your world no longer existing?

Not only are you dead, but everything else would be gone, and anybody that would care would be gone as well. There would be no further existence to consider. And no considerers. It would not matter what you did about its nearness, because after the end there would be no next act in which anything in the prior act would have meant anything to anybody or anything.

 

Anyway, perhaps I am trying to find logic and meaning, in a belief that is false in too many ways to make even figurative sense. But I would like to be able to at least formulate a theory, as to why we tend to think this way, where somehow it is important that the final act be played out, on our watch.

 

Regards, TAR2

[Ophiolite]

We might also wish to consider that it relates to a sense of personal worth for some individuals. They will be there on the day of judgement. They are of the chosen.

 

For others it may help explain what they see as a world "gone to hell in a handbasket".

 

Others may just be morbid prats.

 

I doubt that there is a single explanation. Anyway, since you are all figments of my imagination I wouldn't dwell on it too much.

[iNow]

But what is the draw? I don't quite get it. Why is it better to imagine your world no longer existing?

Not only are you dead, but everything else would be gone, and anybody that would care would be gone as well. There would be no further existence to consider. And no considerers.

 

But that's not what people believe. People believe they will be welcomed into a blissful eternity with sunshine and lollipops and rainbows and unicorns and dancing angels with harps on clouds. They will be "one with god." That's what they believe and why they feel the world not existing is a good thing... because what comes next is so much better than the pain and suffering and struggle they've faced here on earth.

 

On another note, you need to consider that for many it's little more than a Pascal's wager. If the bible thumpers and preachers and ministers and bishops and other men wearing strange hats and robes happen to be right, then the mindset is that it would be better to join the "winning team" than the losing one. I suspect the thinking is similar to wartime thinking wherein people believe that joining a conquering army is better than being slain by it, and in this case christian deities are the analogue of the army. If the world is about to reach armageddon, then part of the acceptance is that one wants to have their bases covered by joining team jesus before it's too late.

 

I could be mistaken. These are just quick opinions in response to a brief read of your query.

[tar]

Ophiolite and Inow,

 

Good answers. Thank you.

 

However, Ophiollite, I wonder about the world going to hell in a handbasket, thing. Compared to what?

What I mean, is that a certain overall, objective view, is required, to ascertain that "things are not the way, they are supposed to be". Not enough lollipops and unicorns and fluffy stuff to consider the world suitable for existence. As if there IS a better way, that a wayward world shoutd be.. Or perhaps that the world deserves punishment...no, a death sentence, for its failure to do it right.

 

Is our "judgement" of the world, important? Is it actual?

 

Regards, TAR2

[Ophiolite]

However, Ophiollite, I wonder about the world going to hell in a handbasket, thing. Compared to what?

What I mean, is that a certain overall, objective view, is required, to ascertain that "things are not the way, they are supposed to be". Not enough lollipops and unicorns and fluffy stuff to consider the world suitable for existence. As if there IS a better way, that a wayward world shoutd be.. Or perhaps that the world deserves punishment...no, a death sentence, for its failure to do it right.

 

Look at it from the fundamentalist point of view. Sex everywhere; godless evolution taught in schools; communist liberals lying about global warming; abortion; rap artists; gay marriage; pedophiles; a Democrat in the White House and Fox News viewer figures slipping. Armageddon is in the wings waiting to make a grand entrance.

[john5746]

Yeah, at least with the Abrahamic religions, its pretty easy to see why the jews would find an end to the norm to be attractive.

 

As far as contemporary, I think its the disconnect they see between having the perfect god and their own country going against it. Something must be wrong and it can't be their god, so destruction is needed.

[tar]

Ophiolite and John5746,

 

Think of it from a fundamentalist point of view...hum...that does seem to do the trick. Answer the question, that is. Ones control over the behavior of the world is, after all, rather minimal. But ones control over their own image of the world, is substantial. And ones connection to one's "personal" god, is thusly, immediate and absolute.

 

If a person, should determine through self evaluation, or through group philosophy, or church teaching, or however, that their "image" of the world, is superior in any way to the way the world actually is, (which is something I do all the time, in small ways), they might be urged to correct the situation. In a small way one might straighten a crooked picture, or in larger ways, feed a hungry child or build a company to fill a certain need, and make the imagined correction.

 

In the case of religions and especially fundamentalist religion, the script, the pattern the way the world "should be" is not only an internal itch, but has double, external reinforcement. Once from the clergy and church and fellow believers, and then again from the universe itself. A universe that they have an internal image of, that matches the image of everybody else, that recites the same words every Sunday, or the words, five times a day...that comes from the speakers on the poles, AND from their memory, when they are called to prayer.

 

Just to be fair, a similar "thing" is probably involved, when I "believe" in the United States of America, and pledged alligience to it every day as I grew up (I'm old enough for that to be the case.)

 

Brain washing, hypnotism, whatever...probably comes in all shapes and sizes, and most likely, none of us are immune from such.

 

But that being the case, probably none of us have the ability to "get" objective enough to make an objective call on existence. So I can see the "need" to pass such a view on to a "truely" objective judge. Unfortuneatly, when conjuring up this judge, (even with the help of the mystics and the teachers,) it remains a conjured thing, that does not empirically present itself. And must be taken on "faith". None-the-less, association with this judge is a "sure" thing to the fundementalist, as you say, and "the right way to be" is an agreed upon, and sanctioned by God, thing.

 

So, although rather an unremoval delusion, I think it is at least "explainable" in this manner, and I thank you, for helping me answer the question of why some religious people need the end to be near.

 

Regards, TAR2

Edited December 10, 2012 by tar

[immortal]

 

So, although rather an unremoval delusion, I think it is at least "explainable" in this manner, and I thank you, for helping me answer the question of why some religious people need the end to be near.

 

Regards, TAR2

 

 

Its not genuine religious people who want the end to be near, its politicians and other organisations who want the end to be near by misusing a few religious texts. Much of the Bible eschatology and the end-time scenario is because of the Book of Revelation and this book has been misused through out the human history to justify their evil acts of non-violence.

 

Not only there are people who seriously believe this they literally want nations to raise against nations and kingdoms against kingdom. Its highly disturbing to live in such an environment.

 

http://38.121.103.33/node/187

 

http://www.god.tv/node/183

 

I as a theist have no interest in such an end of the world eschatology, I am more interested in realized eschatology and returning to fullness because you can always enter the kingdom of god any time irrespective of whether the end is near or not, you don't have to wait till the judgement day because there were other revelation books which got suppressed just because they taught how to know the divine and achieve salvation in this world, right now and did not divided people into believers and non-believers but instead treated all humans equally.

 

Elaine Pagels' New Book Offers 'Revelations' On The Book Of Revelation

Edited December 10, 2012 by immortal

[iNow]

Not only there are people who seriously believe this they literally want nations to raise against nations and kingdoms against kingdom. Its highly disturbing to live in such an environment.

 

I agree completely, but I don't think this is an argument against one specific version of belief, but instead against faith based beliefs in essentially all forms.

[Moontanman]

 

 

Its not genuine religious people who want the end to be near,

 

 

I would really like to see how you can justify making that assertion...

 

Now I remember, no true scotsman...

Edited December 10, 2012 by Moontanman

[immortal]

 

I agree completely, but I don't think this is an argument against one specific version of belief, but instead against faith based beliefs in essentially all forms.

 

All versions have a common belief so definitely its not against only one specific version of it.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalki

 

 

Kalki (Devanagari: कल्कि), translates to 'Eternity,' 'White Horse,' or 'Destroyer of Filth' and is the final incarnation of Vishnu, foretold to appear at the end of Kali Yuga, our current epoch. Puranas foretell that he will be atop a white horse with a drawn blazing sword. He is the harbinger of end time in Hindu eschatology, after which he will usher in Satya Yuga.

 

The name Kalki is a metaphor for eternity or time. Its origins may lie in the Sanskrit word kalka which means foulness or filth. Hence, the name translates to the 'destroyer of foulness,' 'destroyer of darkness," or 'destroyer of ignorance.'^[1] Another etymology from Sanskrit is 'white horse.'

 

 

The Vishnu Purana also explains:

When the practices taught in the Vedas and institutes of law have nearly ceased, and the close of the Kali age shall be nigh, a portion of that divine being who exists of His own spiritual nature, and who is the beginning and end, and who comprehends all things, shall descend upon earth. He will be born in the family of Vishnuyasha, an eminent brahmana of Shambhala village, as Kalki, endowed with eight superhuman faculties. By His irresistible might he will destroy all the mlecchas (Barbarians) and thieves, and all whose minds are devoted to iniquity. He will reestablish righteousness upon earth, and the minds of those who live at the end of the Kali age shall be awakened, and shall be as clear as crystal. The men who are thus changed by virtue of that peculiar time shall be as the seeds of human beings, and shall give birth to a race who will follow the laws of the Krita age or

Satya Yuga

, the age of purity. As it is said, 'When the sun and moon, and the lunar asterism Tishya, and the planet Jupiter, are in one mansion, the Krita age shall return.

—Vishnu Purana, Book Four, Chapter 24

Gobind Singh writes in the Sri Dasam Granth:

When there is incest, adultery, atheism, hatred of religion, no more dharma, and sin everywhere, the impossible Iron Age has come; in what way the world will be saved? For the helpless, the Lord Himself will manifest as the Supreme Purusha. He will be called the Kalki incarnation and will be glorious like a lion coming down from the mountain. Sheshnaga, Indra, Shiva, Ganesha, and Chandra will eulogise Him; the ganas, the ghosts, fiends, imps and fairies, all will hail Him; Nara, Narada, Kinnars, and Yakshas will play on their lyres in order to welcome him. The sounds of drums will be heard; the tabors, the musical glasses, rababs and conches will be played, And hearing the sounds of large and small, the enemies will become unconscious; He will look splendid with bow, arrows, and quiver; he will hold the lance and spear and his banners will wave; he will strike blows with his lance, mace, axe, spear, trident andshield; The tyrants will flee like the leaves flying before the strong gust of wind

—Sri Dasam Ganth, 118, 140-149

[8]

Which is not different from Jesus on a white horse.

“Worship God: For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse;

And he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True,

And in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns;

And he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood:

And his name is called the Word of God.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses,

Clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword,

That with it he should smite the nations:

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron:

And he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness, and wrath of Almighty God.

And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written,

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

Revelation 19:11-16

 

 

 

I would really like to see how you can justify making that assertion...

 

Now I remember, no true scotsman...

 

Just because institutional religions and other organized religions form the majority of religious people doesn't mean that what they say is the opinion of all religious people.

[tar]

Immortal,

 

But the white horse remains a metaphor. And the cleansing is an internal thing.

 

If the metaphors were to be constructed today, we would not require the quivers and horses and hoards. We might use some different imagery. But it would still be imagery. It would still make sense, only as metaphor. What kind of rightgeous armies can you imagine could possibly issue forth, from a rent in the sky...the day after tomorrow, over Newark, NJ?

 

Regards, TAR2

[immortal]

Immortal,

 

But the white horse remains a metaphor. And the cleansing is an internal thing.

 

Its true that cleansing is an internal thing, people doesn't somehow magically become righteous by receiving a divine potion, one needs to work hard for it with his own will. That's the point I am making, Christ has each within him whether a human, angel or a mystery (Gospel of Philip), its not like Christ is not there now and somehow will come and reside in you during the end times or the second coming, that's silly. So if it is a metaphor then the second coming, the great tribulation doesn't make any sense, I think its a prophecy and it should be taken literally that a ruler will command over all the world. You're right about the cleansing thing, yes it is an internal thing.

 

 

If the metaphors were to be constructed today, we would not require the quivers and horses and hoards. We might use some different imagery. But it would still be imagery. It would still make sense, only as metaphor. What kind of rightgeous armies can you imagine could possibly issue forth, from a rent in the sky...the day after tomorrow, over Newark, NJ?

 

Regards, TAR2

 

I have got no idea, as I have told I am not so interested in such a eschatology.

[Moontanman]

 

 

Just because institutional religions and other organized religions form the majority of religious people doesn't mean that what they say is the opinion of all religious people.

 

 

Yes but you said that people who believe the end of the world stuff are not truly religious people, how can you justify that statement?

[immortal]

 

 

Yes but you said that people who believe the end of the world stuff are not truly religious people, how can you justify that statement?

 

That's not what I said, people who believe in the end of the world stuff and who want the end to happen in their own life time or see it as too important are not truly religious people and yes irrespective of whether the great tribulation happens in our life time or will happen sometime in the future or has already happened in the distant past has no affects on your path to enter the kingdom of god, its almost irrelevant.

 

Its quite easy to justify that.

 

 

"Those who say they will die first and then rise are in error. If they do not first receive the resurrection while they live, when they die they will receive nothing."

(Gospel of Philip)

[Moontanman]

 

 

That's not what I said, people who believe in the end of the world stuff and who want the end to happen in their own life time or see it as too important are not truly religious people and yes irrespective of whether the great tribulation happens in our life time or will happen sometime in the future or has already happened in the distant past has no affects on your path to enter the kingdom of god, its almost irrelevant.

 

Its quite easy to justify that.

 

 

"Those who say they will die first and then rise are in error. If they do not first receive the resurrection while they live, when they die they will receive nothing."

(Gospel of Philip)

 

 

 

You just said it again, please tell me how you know that to be true other than you disagree with them...

[iNow]

 

I agree completely, but I don't think this is an argument against one specific version of belief, but instead against faith based beliefs in essentially all forms.

 

Was reminded of my comment above when I watched the below.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBV3eqvQPJs

Edited December 11, 2012 by iNow

[immortal]

 

 

You just said it again, please tell me how you know that to be true other than you disagree with them...

 

As I have said it many times there is no truth in the orthodox Judeo-Christian-Muslim-Hindu religions, they have never ever upheld the torch of the kernel of truth. Just because majority of the religious people are emotionally attached to these doctrines doesn't mean we should not question their validity.

 

Take Christianity, there were many other gospels and doctrines that existed in pre-Christian times but the truth got suppressed and only those doctrines which suited a certain political criteria to control people went through as orthodox Christianity.

 

Take Hinduism, they know that Vedas and the Upanishads are the basis for their religion but yet they continue to worship Rama, Krishna because a careful analysis of Vedas and the Upanishads shatters their cornerstone beliefs. They no longer take the Vedas and the Upanishads seriously.

 

The doctrine that is espoused in the oral tradition of Judaism like Midrash, Talmud, Zohar, Mishnah etc is completely different from the doctrine of the religious people who believe in the literal truth of the bible.

 

On the whole all scientific evidence is pointing in favour of a hypercosmic God which none of these orthodox religions predicted it or believes in it and hence we can safely ignore the doctrines of these orthodox religions which don't have any truth in them and the evidence is actually in favour of Gnostic cosmogony. Therefore the opinions of these orthodox religious people who blindly follow their religions without questioning them doesn't represent the opinion of all religious people.

[Moontanman]

 

As I have said it many times there is no truth in the orthodox Judeo-Christian-Muslim-Hindu religions, they have never ever upheld the torch of the kernel of truth. Just because majority of the religious people are emotionally attached to these doctrines doesn't mean we should not question their validity.

 

Take Christianity, there were many other gospels and doctrines that existed in pre-Christian times but the truth got suppressed and only those doctrines which suited a certain political criteria to control people went through as orthodox Christianity.

 

Take Hinduism, they know that Vedas and the Upanishads are the basis for their religion but yet they continue to worship Rama, Krishna because a careful analysis of Vedas and the Upanishads shatters their cornerstone beliefs. They no longer take the Vedas and the Upanishads seriously.

 

The doctrine that is espoused in the oral tradition of Judaism like Midrash, Talmud, Zohar, Mishnah etc is completely different from the doctrine of the religious people who believe in the literal truth of the bible.

 

On the whole all scientific evidence is pointing in favour of a hypercosmic God which none of these orthodox religions predicted it or believes in it and hence we can safely ignore the doctrines of these orthodox religions which don't have any truth in them and the evidence is actually in favour of Gnostic cosmogony. Therefore the opinions of these orthodox religious people who blindly follow their religions without questioning them doesn't represent the opinion of all religious people.

 

 

You are as slippery as an eel swimming in vaseline dude, you failed to address my question completely!

 

How can you say this are not truly religious people but you provide no evidence of how you can say it. It's the No true Scotsman fallacy, How can you say anyone is not truly religious? How do you know other than by judging them by the standard of your own fairy tail?

 

Then you say this

 

 

 

On the whole all scientific evidence is pointing in favour of a hypercosmic God which none of these orthodox religions predicted it or believes in it and hence we can safely ignore the doctrines of these orthodox religions which don't have any truth in them and the evidence is actually in favour of Gnostic cosmogony.

 

 

Can you support that with anything other than assertions by religion?

 

Then you go on to say

 

 

 

Therefore the opinions of these orthodox religious people who blindly follow their religions without questioning them doesn't represent the opinion of all religious people.

 

 

Never once have I suggested you said this, you are setting up a strawman instead of answering my original question about your original unsupportable assertion...

 

Now one more time, how can you assert this?

 

 

 

That's not what I said, people who believe in the end of the world stuff and who want the end to happen in their own life time or see it as too important are not truly religious people