What is time? Does time even exist?

[zorro]

Time is a measure of the earths travel around in terms of it's rotation. Because this varies, time is an avg division of this movement. Fine tiny measurements is made by the oscillation of std atoms but this too is adjusted so that time is synced to the rotation and spin of the earth.

 

Otherwise we would fall out of the rhythms of the seasons that support us as many civilizations past did.

[swansont]

Time is a measure of the earths travel around in terms of it's rotation. Because this varies, time is an avg division of this movement. Fine tiny measurements is made by the oscillation of std atoms but this too is adjusted so that time is synced to the rotation and spin of the earth.

 

 

The adjustment is done by convention, not because of any inherent property of time being a measure of the earth's revolution and rotation.

[Myuncle]

 

Then why doesn't everything happen at once?

 

Interesting question. The most obvious answer would be that matter, atoms, quarks, can move only in one direction. We can move, walk, run, only in one single direction, unless we split ourselves...

[imatfaal]

 

Interesting question. The most obvious answer would be that matter, atoms, quarks, can move only in one direction. We can move, walk, run, only in one single direction, unless we split ourselves...

 

Toss a pebble in a pond - in which single direction is the wave moving? matter can and does behave like waves and simple classical definitions and certainties break down. Decent size molecules can be shown to form interference patterns (60 C buckyballs) due to their wavelike nature.

[Myuncle]

 

Toss a pebble in a pond - in which single direction is the wave moving? matter can and does behave like waves and simple classical definitions and certainties break down. Decent size molecules can be shown to form interference patterns (60 C buckyballs) due to their wavelike nature.

Any wave is made by atoms moving in only one direction.

[swansont]

 

Interesting question. The most obvious answer would be that matter, atoms, quarks, can move only in one direction. We can move, walk, run, only in one single direction, unless we split ourselves...

 

Any single entity can only move in one direction, but what does that have to do with the question/claim? Events happen in an order.

Any wave is made by atoms moving in only one direction.

 

The atoms move up and down, yet the wave expands radially.

[Strange]

I think that we only have the concept of time because we have memories.

 

And yet ... the posts in this thread, for example, are ordered by date and time. That doesn't rely on memory.

[Myuncle]

 

Any single entity can only move in one direction, but what does that have to do with the question/claim? Events happen in an order.

If matter could move in every direction without splitting, in theory things could happen at once, which is science fiction.

 

Edited August 9, 2013 by Myuncle

[zorro]

 

The adjustment is done by convention, not because of any inherent property of time being a measure of the earth's revolution and rotation.

 

 

 

The adjustment is done by convention, not because of any inherent property of time being a measure of the earth's revolution and rotation.

 

 

Cyber clocks and other time pieces are adjusted on the definition of a time convention being a proportion of the earths motions : 60 sec/min, 60min/hr ..... /day. Wherein a day is from solar noon to solar noon and slowing; and the earth's slowing elliptical path around the sun.

 

Time measurement (Seconds) are adjusted to the cosmos to serve mankind and not the other way around.

[Strange]

Cyber clocks and other time pieces are adjusted on the definition of a time convention being a proportion of the earths motions : 60 sec/min, 60min/hr ..... /day. Wherein a day is from solar noon to solar noon and slowing; and the earth's slowing elliptical path around the sun.

 

Time measurement (Seconds) are adjusted to the cosmos to serve mankind and not the other way around.

 

Suely it is the other way round. The length of the second is fixed (some number of blah blah cesium blah) and the length of the day and year are varied to keep instep with nature (leap seconds, leap years, etc).

[krash661]

there are multiple classifications of time.
it maybe best to specify the classification that is being referenced

[Greg H.]

To readdress the questions asked by the OP: "What is time? Does time exist?"

 

1. What is time?

Time is the property of the overall space-time arrangement of the universe that prevents effect from preceding cause. Without time you could die from a gunshot wound before the bullet reached you - even before it was fired. There would be no sense to the motion of the universe because there would be way to order the events that describe that motion. (I'm not going down the path of SLoT here. It's not relevant to the topic at hand). In simplest terms time is the universal property that prevents the past from happening after the future.

 

2. Does time exist?

Define "exist". We can certainly see the effects of previous causes, so in that respect yes time exists in that it provides an ordered arrangement of events that we can perceive. Without time, we would have no way of predicting anything, landing folks on the moon, probes on Mars, or even predicting the orbits of asteroids and planets. You cannot define a discrete event without using time. If I schedule a meeting with my boss (a discrete event), I have to define both the location of the meeting and the time that event should occur, or we might end up at the same place at different times, preventing us from meeting.

[hyperion1is]

 

The adjustment is done by convention, not because of any inherent property of time being a measure of the earth's revolution and rotation.

 

This is what I don't understand about space-time.

The equation, if I'm not wrong is

If t here is established conventionally how can we make an accurate representation of space-time?

 

The atoms move up and down, yet the wave expands radially.

 

Wave expands radially? Across t axis also no? In space-time the distribution of matter is made across t dimension also. If we haven't experienced that matter yet this doesn't mean that is not there.

 

------

 

Concerning time consider this thought experiment.

We will use marks such as stone, three but they are just marks.

 

If I'm in point A (I have a rock at my feet) I have 4 possibilities to choose from: forward, backward, right, left. This is state A. I make a decision and after that I move to point B. Let's say that I decide Forward.

Here I have a tree. State B. I have to decide between taking an apple from that tree or not. After this decision I can't revert to state A, I will arrive to A'.

Let's say that I revert to state A. I have the 4 possibilities as before, but this time, instead of forward. I choose to make a right, and I will end up to state C.

How much time did it passed?

Edited August 9, 2013 by hyperion1is

[Myuncle]

Define "exist".

 

 

I am sure the OP doesn't doubt the existence of time as a human idea to keep track of movements in space, but that doesn't mean that time exists in reality. Many ideas exist only in our imagination and fantasy, but they don't exist in reality. Space, matter and movement, not only exist in our mind, but they exist in reality as well. The idea of two identical unities, doesn't exist in reality, but thanks to that we can have math, we can write 1=1, we can measure everything, and agree on these measurements, very useful indeed. The idea of a centaur, it does exist as an idea in our imagination, but not in reality, it can be a very useful idea for art purposes, but again it doesn't exist, just like Santa Claus. Heck, if I can understand that, I am sure everyone can understand it.

If we haven't experienced that matter yet this doesn't mean that is not there.

That can be said for centaurs as well.

[zorro]

 

Suely it is the other way round. The length of the second is fixed (some number of blah blah cesium blah) and the length of the day and year are varied to keep instep with nature (leap seconds, leap years, etc).

 

Not really, .... the Cesium and other precise instruments are adjusted to Mother Earth. Otherwise if we set your cesium iMAC under Pharaoh your MAC would take 50 +/- milliseconds from your coffee break. ...... or maybe 50 milliseconds off when the farmer is supposed to plow.

 

see : http://novan.com/earth.htm

..... The Sub-bureau for Rapid Service and Predictions of Earth Orientation Parameters of the International Earth Rotation Service (IERS), located at the US Naval Observatory, monitors the Earth's rotation. Part of its mission involves the determination of a time scale based on the current rate of the rotation of the Earth.

 

They estimate that the Earth's rotation is slowing at about 1.4 milliseconds per solar day per century which roughly agrees with the rate of rotation of the Earth has actually slowed down since 1820. Tracing these tiny milliseconds back for 4.5 billion years adds up to a very significant amount of time for a solar day. I have determined that the day/night rotation was 63,000 seconds shorter than the present 86,400 seconds it is today. This would put the Earth's rotation at about 6.5 hours per day/night cycle, when it was created, 4.5 billion years ago. (This is a much faster rate of rotation than the Cassini-Huygens mission (2003 to 2004) determined Saturn's present 10.5 hours rotation period to be.)

e Sub-bureau for Rapid Service and Predictions of Earth Orientation Parameters of the International Earth Rotation Service (IERS), located at the US Naval Observatory, monitors the Earth's rotation. Part of its mission involves the determination of a time scale based on the current rate of the rotation of the Earth.

 

They estimate that the Earth's rotation is slowing at about 1.4 milliseconds per solar day per century which roughly agrees with the rate of rotation of the Earth has actually slowed down since 1820. Tracing these tiny milliseconds back for 4.5 billion years adds up to a very significant amount of time for a solar day. I have determined that the day/night rotation was 63,000 seconds shorter than the present 86,400 seconds it is today. This would put the Earth's rotation at about 6.5 hours per day/night cycle, when it was created, 4.5 billion years ago. (This is a much faster rate of rotation than the Cassini-Huygens mission (2003 to 2004) determined Saturn's present 10.5 hours rotation period to be.) .....

Edited August 9, 2013 by zorro

[hyperion1is]

The idea of two identical unities, doesn't exist in reality,

 

2 identical unities: an object and the reflection of the object in a mirror. Without the idea of 2 identical units in our head we won't be able to make the connection. We will treat these 2 objects as different from each other.

 

That can be said for centaurs as well.

 

 

Except we don't have a working hypothesis for centaurs, as we do for space-time. According to your metaphor I can expect for tomorrow to find all the matter scattered arbitrary throughout the Universe. And I can't rely on anything to give me different expectations.

Potatoes - tomatoes.

 

And what idea are you really entertaining in your post? That from an evolutionary perspective "mother nature" gave us some features that are pointless but pretty? (no correspondence in real world?)

Edited August 9, 2013 by hyperion1is

[Myuncle]

 

Except we don't have a working hypothesis for centaurs, as we do for space-time. According to your metaphor I can expect for tomorrow to find all the matter scattered arbitrary throughout the Universe. And I can't rely on anything to give me different expectations.

Potatoes - tomatoes.

 

And what idea are you really entertaining in your post? That from an evolutionary perspective "mother nature" gave us some features that are pointless but pretty? (no correspondence in real world?)

No metaphors. Calculations and predictions of space-time are very welcome, as long as we realize that time doesn't exist in reality, but only in our ideas (even our ideas wouldn't happen if atoms were not moving).

[swansont]

 

Cyber clocks and other time pieces are adjusted on the definition of a time convention being a proportion of the earths motions : 60 sec/min, 60min/hr ..... /day. Wherein a day is from solar noon to solar noon and slowing; and the earth's slowing elliptical path around the sun.

 

Time measurement (Seconds) are adjusted to the cosmos to serve mankind and not the other way around.

 

The length of the second is not adjusted. A leap second is added (preferentially at the end of Dec 31 or June 30) whenever universal time is going to be out of step with terrestrial time by more than 0.9 seconds. There is currently a discussion going on as to whether we should eliminate leap seconds, because these adjustments are potentially problematic for computer-driven systems.

 

The length of the second has been defined according to atomic transitions since 1967.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second

Suely it is the other way round. The length of the second is fixed (some number of blah blah cesium blah) and the length of the day and year are varied to keep instep with nature (leap seconds, leap years, etc).

Yes, this is the way we do it, though the length of the day varies naturally, owing to our elliptical orbit and inclination. There's about a 15-minute swing over the course of the year, which is why there in an analemma on sun dials.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_time

No metaphors. Calculations and predictions of space-time are very welcome, as long as we realize that time doesn't exist in reality, but only in our ideas (even our ideas wouldn't happen if atoms were not moving).

 

Time doesn't exist in the same way that length, width and height don't exist.

[Myuncle]

Time doesn't exist in the same way that length, width and height don't exist.

 

But I agree, what we call time, height, length and width are just human concepts to calculate and keep track of movements of atoms from point A to point B. What physically exists in reality is only atoms moving through space.

[Strange]

 

But I agree, what we call time, height, length and width are just human concepts to calculate and keep track of movements of atoms from point A to point B. What physically exists in reality is only atoms moving through space.

 

And that space doesn't have height, width or length? And the movement doesn't take any time?

[Myuncle]

 

And that space doesn't have height, width or length? And the movement doesn't take any time?

That amount of space has what we humans call "height", "width" "length" "speed", which doesn't correspond to reality. What you think it is the length, width, height and speed, it's just an approximation, an idea of reality. Whatever we calculate and measure, it's only an approximation, matter it's not stable at all, it's constantly changing and moving, because its atoms are always changing and moving, even if we don't see it. Measuring doesn't give life to anything. You can measure everything, you can predict how fast, tall and heavy could be a hypothetical Santa, that still doesn't bring Santa to life and to reality.

[hyperion1is]

How, I said before. we can't define time, it seems; not that easy.

Interesting though, that any attempt in our part to define and measure time is by using cycles, even if it involves planets, atoms, or quasars, and we work with a concept of linear time.

And I always had problems with this definition for second:

"The time needed for a cesium-133 atom to perform 9,192,631,770 complete oscillations". The second is defined by it's measurement.

It like I'm saying: "For me the meter is that unit that I managed to divide it into 100 smaller units(cm)."

 

And that second defines time. I'm curious, with what definition of time the scientific community is working.

[StringJunky]

. I'm curious, with what definition of time the scientific community is working.

 

They say: "It's what clocks measure". It's just a parameter.

Edited August 10, 2013 by StringJunky

[Strange]

That amount of space has what we humans call "height", "width" "length" "speed", which doesn't correspond to reality. What you think it is the length, width, height and speed, it's just an approximation, an idea of reality. Whatever we calculate and measure, it's only an approximation, matter it's not stable at all, it's constantly changing and moving, because its atoms are always changing and moving, even if we don't see it. Measuring doesn't give life to anything. You can measure everything, you can predict how fast, tall and heavy could be a hypothetical Santa, that still doesn't bring Santa to life and to reality.

 

I am curious how you know this (and with such certainty) when you appear to be talking about an ideal reality that, well, we cannot know...

[Myuncle]

 

I am curious how you know this (and with such certainty) when you appear to be talking about an ideal reality that, well, we cannot know...

I am not certain at all, I am just taking my chances, and see reactions in this thread. If I am wrong I am very happy to be shown why, at least I am learning something new.