What defines religion (split from correlation w/poverty)

[John Cuthber]

All immortal ever provides as evidence is appeals to authority, he has no empirical evidence what so ever...

I know, but I'm hoping for a miracle.

Perhaps he will actually answer the question and explain how you can prove that reality doesn't exist, using only unreal things to do it with.

I'm not sure if that's a bigger or smaller miracle than if he actually admits that he's wrong.

Still, it doesn't matter as he will no doubt just decree that the other 7 billion people on the planet are all ignorant and he knows he's right.

Mind you, if the planet isn't real, then nor am I, so how big a deal is it if I'm wrong?

 

Incidentally, doesn't an appeal to authority require that the authority is, in some way, recognised?

 

I mean "Einstein said it so it must be true" has some credibility if the subject under discussion is to do with physics (or violin playing).

But "My granny said it, so it must be true" doesn't have the same clout.

 

Now, since I tend to think that the people who consider theology in any depth are not bright enough to realise that they are wasting their time (angels on pinheads as it were) I rather doubt that they have any great insight into reality.

Sure, if I wanted to know how many times Jesus said the word "bread" then a theologist might be just what I wanted; but that's not something I feel I'm likely to want to know.

If I wanted to know how the real world works I'd be more likely to trust the suggestions of someone who looked at the real world, Surely that's better than someone who never looked further than the library (and then only at a handful of books)?

Edited February 12, 2013 by John Cuthber

[immortal]

.Anyway,

perhaps you would like to stop the pointless debate about who said what to whom and when (which is only ever going to be evidence of what they thought- rather than evidence of what is true) and answer my question

How can you show that reality doesn't exist?

What do you make the equipment from?

 

 

There is no demarcation line which seperates the quantum world from the classical, even the measuring apparatus or the equipment should be treated as a quantum system and it doesn't exist independent of us, just as John Clauser said, "Perhaps an unheard tree falling in the forest make no sound after all"

That's not the only thing which proves that the pagan mystery religions are true there are other evidences as well.

Its the existence of mathematicians, they can see the truth value of statements for which no algorithm exists to know that, which implies that the only way they could have known is by accessing their intellect in the Platonic world showing that human mathematical understanding is non-computable.

The information or epistemology of knowledge doesn't flow in this direction here:

Empirical world--->via senses-->Brain

Instead it flows like this:

Platonic world-->Intellect-->Mind-->Empirical reality(Brain)

“A majority of contemporary mathematicians (a typical, though disputed, estimate is about two-thirds) believe in a kind of heaven – not a heaven of angels and saints, but one inhabited by the perfect and timeless objects they study: n-dimensional spheres, infinite numbers, the square root of -1, and the like. Moreover, they believe that they commune with this realm of timeless entities through a sort of extra-sensory perception.”

“And today’s mathematical Platonists agree. Among the most distinguished of them is Alain Connes, holder of the Chair of Analysis and Geometry at the College de France, who has averred that “there exists, independently of the human mind, a raw and immutable mathematical reality.”… Platomism is understandably seductive to mathematicians. It means that the entities they study are no mere artifacts of the human mind: these entities are discovered, not invented… Many physicists also feel the allure of Plato’s vision.”

- Jim Holt

One can testify the existence of Platonic world by doing Theurgy also. The default position now is that the numinous exists.

[Moontanman]

 

There is no demarcation line which seperates the quantum world from the classical, even the measuring apparatus or the equipment should be treated as a quantum system and it doesn't exist independent of us, just as John Clauser said, "Perhaps an unheard tree falling in the forest make no sound after all"

That's not the only thing which proves that the pagan mystery religions are true there are other evidences as well.

Its the existence of mathematicians, they can see the truth value of statements for which no algorithm exists to know that, which implies that the only way they could have known is by accessing their intellect in the Platonic world showing that human mathematical understanding is non-computable.

The information or epistemology of knowledge doesn't flow in this direction here:

Empirical world--->via senses-->Brain

Instead it flows like this:

Platonic world-->Intellect-->Mind-->Empirical reality(Brain)

“A majority of contemporary mathematicians (a typical, though disputed, estimate is about two-thirds) believe in a kind of heaven – not a heaven of angels and saints, but one inhabited by the perfect and timeless objects they study: n-dimensional spheres, infinite numbers, the square root of -1, and the like. Moreover, they believe that they commune with this realm of timeless entities through a sort of extra-sensory perception.”

“And today’s mathematical Platonists agree. Among the most distinguished of them is Alain Connes, holder of the Chair of Analysis and Geometry at the College de France, who has averred that “there exists, independently of the human mind, a raw and immutable mathematical reality.”… Platomism is understandably seductive to mathematicians. It means that the entities they study are no mere artifacts of the human mind: these entities are discovered, not invented… Many physicists also feel the allure of Plato’s vision.”

- Jim Holt

One can testify the existence of Platonic world by doing Theurgy also. The default position now is that the numinous exists.

 

 

immortal, are you asserting that the mind is separate from the brain? This is demonstrably not true...

[John Cuthber]

 

The default position now is that the numinous exists.

Bollocks

It may well be your (de)fault position, but that doesn't make it true.

 

Anyway, back at the question:

How can you show that reality doesn't exist?

What do you make the equipment from?

[tar]

Immortal,

 

I am stuck on your contention that an 8 year old, schooled in Eastern systems of thought knows more about the nature of reality than a physicist.

 

I am envisioning a barefoot, poor, starving wretch searching some garbage pile in Mumbai, and countering the image with a scientist at CERN.

 

This thread was split off of "correlation with poverty" and there may indeed be some reasons why poverty is associated with religion.

 

Gnostic thought tends to discount "matter" and reality, and promote "spiritual" wealth.

 

Seems to me, that MIND came about, so we could more effectively deal with reality. Seems like a waste of MIND, to use it as an escape from reality. Or it seems elitist to administer it to the masses, as an opiate.

 

In either case, I don't think you have a leg to stand on, if you cut it off, as a premise.

 

Either reality is real, and that is where "fullness" can be noticed, or knowlege of reality is a dream.

 

You, Immortal, still have to answer John Cuthber's question. What real equipment do we use to inform our MINDs?

 

Regards, TAR2

[immortal]

Bollocks

It may well be your (de)fault position, but that doesn't make it true.

 

Anyway, back at the question:

How can you show that reality doesn't exist?

 

By performing experiments which violate Local Realism. I can cite loads of evidence for it, working scientists should abandon the belief that this empirical reality exist independent of us because facts established from experiments contradicts that belief.

 

Bell’s theorem represents a significant advance in understanding the conceptual foundations of quantum mechanics. The theorem shows that essentially all local theories of natural phenomena that are formulated within the framework of realism may be tested using a single experimental arrangement. Moreover, the predictions by these theories must significantly differ from those by quantum mechanics. Experimental results evidently refute the theorem’s predictions for these theories and favour those of quantum mechanics. The conclusions are philosophically startling: either one must totally abandon the realistic philosophy of most working scientists, or dramatically revise our concept of space-time.

 

Nonetheless, we find this conclusion disturbing, since the philosophical point of view which most working scientists have found natural, at least until quite recently, requires a local realistic theory. Because of the evidence in favour of quantum mechanics from the experiments based upon Bell’s theorem, we are forced either to abandon the strong version of EPR’s criterion of reality-which is tantamount to abandoning a realistic view of the physical world (perhaps an unheard tree falling in the forest makes no sound after all)-or else to accept some kind of action-at-a-distance. Either option is radical, and a comprehensive study of their philosophical consequences remains to be made.

 

- Bell’s theorem : experimental tests and implications, JOHN F CLAUSER, ABNER SHIMONY

 

 

Either accept these facts or accept that working scientists have lost their self respect, intellectual honesty and credibility.

 

What do you make the equipment from?

 

I can simulate a virtual environment and make you feel that the equipment exists out there for real by stimulating your senses in a certain way so that it gives you the experience of touch, pressure, haptic, audio etc and make the equipment as real as out there but in actuality the equipment doesn't exist, the same is with this world the moon doesn't exist when no one is looking at it. This empirical reality is a retrospective creation of the Nous(Mind), a product of a divine God.

 

 

Natural Interactive Walking Project

Edited February 13, 2013 by immortal

[John Cuthber]

"By performing experiments which violate Local Realism. I can cite loads of evidence for it, working scientists should abandon the belief that this empirical reality exist independent of us because facts established from experiments contradicts that belief."

Nope, you can not cite evidence for the suggestion that reality does not exist.

If it didn't then you wouldn't have anything from which to make the equipment to do the experiment.

All the experiments you have put forward are evidence against the idea that reality does not exist.

 

You may be fooling yourself, but you are not fooling the rest of us.

[immortal]

Immortal,

 

I am stuck on your contention that an 8 year old, schooled in Eastern systems of thought knows more about the nature of reality than a physicist.

 

I am envisioning a barefoot, poor, starving wretch searching some garbage pile in Mumbai, and countering the image with a scientist at CERN.

 

I was envisioning something different.

 

Effect of yogic education system and modern education system on memory

 

Tradition is important and it is tradition which defines religion, there is an orthodoxy, religion is not something where anything goes and anyone comes up with any nonsense notion of God and demands that we should accept it, no it doesn't work like that.

 

We have preserved the Vedic Aryan Religion and it is going to correct science and we will continue to model the world that a mind and an intellect exists in the platonic world separate from the brain and our model indeed works and it is the truth of this world.

 

 

[John Cuthber]

"Tradition is important and it is tradition which defines religion,"

Not according to what you have posted before.

It was, at that point, you who defined religion.

 

Anyway, any progress on doing experiments with non existent equipment?

Remember, if reality doesn't exist, there is no real equipment to do experiments with.

So, what do you use?

 

Incidentally, , here's a quote from that page you cited. It's weird, but that's not the problem.

"Uninostril breathing facilitates the performance on spatial and verbal cognitive tasks, said to be right and left brain functions, respectively. Since hemispheric memory functions are also known to be lateralized, Naveen et al. assessed the effects of uninostril breathing on the performance in verbal and spatial memory tests. School children (N = 108, whose ages ranged from 10-17 years) were randomly assigned to four groups. Each group practiced a specific yoga breathing technique: (a) right nostril breathing, (b) left nostril breathing, © alternate nostril breathing, or (d) breath awareness without manipulation of nostrils. These techniques were practiced for ten days. Verbal and spatial memory was assessed initially and after ten days. An age-matched control group of 27 children were similarly assessed. All four experimental groups showed significant increases in spatial test scores at retest, but the control group showed no change. Average increase in spatial memory scores for the trained groups was 84%. It appears yoga breathing increases spatial rather than verbal scores, without a lateralized effect."

 

Did you see what they did there?

"Uninostril breathing facilitates the performance on spatial and verbal cognitive tasks"

"Average increase in spatial memory scores for the trained groups was 84%. It appears yoga breathing increases spatial rather than verbal scores, without a lateralized effect."

So, breathing through one nostril makes a difference.

But it doesn't matter which one.

But spatial and verbal skills are lateralised, so , according to the dogma, it should matter which nostril you use (of course, according to common sense, it doesn't- the air goes to the lungs, not directly to the brain).

They have actually contradicted their own doctrine, but not noticed.

That should lead you to wonder what happened. Of course the answer is right there.

There's no reference intervention. So they have successfully verified the placebo effect- nothing more.

Edited February 13, 2013 by John Cuthber

[Moontanman]

We have preserved the Vedic Aryan Religion and it is going to correct science

 

​ I am skeptical...

 

and we will continue to model the world that a mind and an intellect exists in the platonic world separate from the brain and our model indeed works and it is the truth of this world.

 

This is demonstrably not true, immortal why do you not see this? Your mind does not exist independent from the brain, your brain is all you have, change it in even a minor way and your mind is no more...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

 

 

Phineas P. Gage (1823–1860) was an American railroad construction foreman now remembered for his improbable^[C] survival of an accident in which a large iron rod was driven completely through his head, destroying much of his brain's left frontal lobe, and for that injury's reported effects on his personality and behavior, effects so profound—for a time, at least^[2]—that friends saw him as "no longer Gage".

Long called "the American Crowbar Case"—once termed "the case which more than all others is calculated to excite our wonder, impair the value of prognosis, and even to subvert our physiologicaldoctrines"^[3]—Phineas Gage influenced 19th-century discussion about the mind and brain, particularly debate on cerebral local­ization,^[4] and was perhaps the first case suggesting that damage to specific parts of the brain might affect personality.

 

Edited February 13, 2013 by Moontanman

[tar]

Immortal,

 

A factor I think you should acknowledge is the fact of the real existence of "other" minds than yours, that you are communicating with on this forum. You could close your eyes and "wish" real hard, that TAR is only phenomena of yours, but that is not the case. I really exist. I have a history. I have been places, real places, that others on this thread have probably been. Perhaps Toyko, or Times Square, or the Grand Canyon. I watch the same Sun and Moon, and stars that you do (maybe slightly different stars due to latitude of our respective home towns.) The history of your country is documented, as is the history of mine. We can both pick up Critique of Pure Reason and read Kant's thoughts, experience his mind, and his understanding, and his logic. If you would contract a search light company to send a beam of light upward from the high school in West Milford NJ, at 10 o'clock PM EST time on the 13th of Feb. 2013, I could go outside at 10, and see the clouds illuminated by the beam. For real. No imagination required.

 

I think you have to grant reality and the experience of it, to everyone reading and posting on this thread. We are not figments of your imagination.

 

Grant us reality first, and then we can discuss what of it we have in common, and what strides human thought and language and meaning have made in the last 4 thousand years, or 40 thousand or 400 thousand years.

 

Secondly, if you know there is mind that is "other" than yours, that is real, your first evidence and proof of this you probably got looking up at your mother's eyes as she held you in her arms. I can assure you, with 100% certainty, that your mother was real, had a mind of her own, and she probably never knew of TAR and I probably never knew of her.

 

Regards, TAR

 

Or is it EDT? Which is it "really", Immortal?

Edited February 14, 2013 by tar

[Ringer]

Incidentally, doesn't an appeal to authority require that the authority is, in some way, recognised?

 

I mean "Einstein said it so it must be true" has some credibility if the subject under discussion is to do with physics (or violin playing).

But "My granny said it, so it must be true" doesn't have the same clout.

To be technical, an appeal to authority is only fallacious if the authority is not actually an authority. Otherwise it's a non-sequitur because the conclusion doesn't follow premise of the person being an authority.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority#Fallacious_appeal_to_authority

[Iggy]

EDIT:

 

Scratch that. Recognition is sufficient but not necessary. Gotcha

 

Although I would disagree with your sentence "an appeal to authority is only fallacious if the authority is not actually an authority."

 

while the first paragraph of your link says:

 

"the appeal to authority is often applied fallaciously: either the authority is not a subject-matter expert, or there is no consensus among experts in the subject matter, or both."

Edited February 14, 2013 by Iggy

[Ringer]

Although I would disagree with your sentence "an appeal to authority is only fallacious if the authority is not actually an authority."

 

while the first paragraph of your link says:

 

"the appeal to authority is often applied fallaciously: either the authority is not a subject-matter expert, or there is no consensus among experts in the subject matter, or both."

It's still fallacious, it's just a separate fallacy. Like I said, that's just being overly technical because his statement reminded me of that. I still call appeals to accepted authority figures as argument from authority although it's technically a non-sequitur. Also, who doesn't like being a pedantic a** every once and a while.

[Iggy]

Also, who doesn't like being a pedantic a** every once and a while.

 

Oh, don't get me wrong -- I get off on it, hence my overly nuanced objection to your fairly nuanced objection.

 

Alltheless, nothing stops a fallacy from being both argument from authority and non sequitur. I'd be disappointed in Immortal's arguments were contained to one type of fallacy

Edited February 14, 2013 by Iggy

[menageriemanor]

You chaps do know you are using up your living hours on this, no refund? On your death bed, you're going to think I argued with immortal for..._ hours of my life. I just skipped every 2nd page, to 10, in 1 go.

 

Whilst immortal's family may be grateful for the break, immortal enjoying more intellectual attention than he has in years, isn't it time he gets his own 'special' section, where he can pop back and give names of new followers, who actually are true religionists, by his definition, add new revelatons of the day, startling solitary truths, warnings and his own bible with only the truthful bits in it.

 

In return, we'll promise to pop in and read and seriously think about the latest stuff, but we won't leave any messages, because we don't really exist in reality, and we have now established we know nothing, and will never be able to qualify for any religion, even if we actually apply. Is that the gist?

 

I am not capable of following such a mind, such a broadly read, analytical mind. I was following some sort of logic line, the page long lost in my fading memory, and for the life of me, I swear I had a vision of Father Dougal, and his REALITY cartoon bubble he had to study, with REALITY clearly marked, and relaxed rabbits in his cartoon head, marked DREAMS, wasn't it? suddenly being added to the end That appealled to me - but I don't want my rabbits to speak, because that isn't real - OR IS IT? so I'm going to happily remain 100% atheist, PURELY because I don't really exist, and true religion is beyond my comprehension. I think that is what we've establshed, after 10 pages?

 

Even better, next time we get really confident religionists, desperate to enlighten us, can we have a contact email for immortal, and we'll let him know, and we can let THEM discuss stuff.

 

I'm going to start a new thread. Can you read enough stuff, know there is an undefined further stuff to come, and realise you are losing the will to live?

[Moontanman]

You chaps do know you are using up your living hours on this, no refund? On your death bed, you're going to think I argued with immortal for..._ hours of my life. I just skipped every 2nd page, to 10, in 1 go.

 

Whilst immortal's family may be grateful for the break, immortal enjoying more intellectual attention than he has in years, isn't it time he gets his own 'special' section, where he can pop back and give names of new followers, who actually are true religionists, by his definition, add new revelatons of the day, startling solitary truths, warnings and his own bible with only the truthful bits in it.

 

In return, we'll promise to pop in and read and seriously think about the latest stuff, but we won't leave any messages, because we don't really exist in reality, and we have now established we know nothing, and will never be able to qualify for any religion, even if we actually apply. Is that the gist?

 

I am not capable of following such a mind, such a broadly read, analytical mind. I was following some sort of logic line, the page long lost in my fading memory, and for the life of me, I swear I had a vision of Father Dougal, and his REALITY cartoon bubble he had to study, with REALITY clearly marked, and relaxed rabbits in his cartoon head, marked DREAMS, wasn't it? suddenly being added to the end That appealled to me - but I don't want my rabbits to speak, because that isn't real - OR IS IT? so I'm going to happily remain 100% atheist, PURELY because I don't really exist, and true religion is beyond my comprehension. I think that is what we've establshed, after 10 pages?

 

Even better, next time we get really confident religionists, desperate to enlighten us, can we have a contact email for immortal, and we'll let him know, and we can let THEM discuss stuff.

 

I'm going to start a new thread. Can you read enough stuff, know there is an undefined further stuff to come, and realise you are losing the will to live?

 

 

Good points but it is possible that at some distant time he will be waiting for me on the other side and I'll have to face him for judgement... no wait, he's not god, he's god's messenger.. well he says he has special knowledge no one else has... he's fun to poke with a stick?

[immortal]

"Tradition is important and it is tradition which defines religion,"

Not according to what you have posted before.

It was, at that point, you who defined religion.

 

 

I didn't defined religion, traditions defined it and I just accepted their definition.

Valentinian tradition

Vajrayana tradition

Smartha tradition

Jewish oral tradition

It is traditions which defines religion and I am just going with evidence and have accepted the universality of their definition.

 

Anyway, any progress on doing experiments with non existent equipment?

Remember, if reality doesn't exist, there is no real equipment to do experiments with.

So, what do you use?

 

 

There are two ways to know that this world is not real, one way is to do theurgy and directly worship the Aeons or the pleroma of gods taking the path of henosis which shows that this empirical reality is only a state of Nous(Mind). For this you don't need any equipment.

The best example for that is an egyptian scholar who appears in the Greek Magical Papyri describing how to make an ascent to heaven to meet the supreme Aeon and how one has to pass through all the gate keepers of heaven to go beyond the Father to know the One and achieve immortality.

An another way is by the exact physical sciences, just because the equipment doesn't exist prior to our observations doesn't mean we cannot draw reasonable conclusions from the results of the experiment, quantum mechanics is a pointer to an independent reality and it is pointing straight towards the Pleroma of God. In fact it is the result of the quantum experiment which forces us to question the existence of an empirical world independent of us and the existence of freewill. The physicist doesn't have the freedom to chose the pointer basis of his measurements and he has no influence over the outcome of the experiment and when he sees the result he has to make an inevitable conclusion that the measured object did not had any predefined properties and it is the very act of measurement which brought that object into existence.

 

Incidentally, , here's a quote from that page you cited. It's weird, but that's not the problem.

"Uninostril breathing facilitates the performance on spatial and verbal cognitive tasks, said to be right and left brain functions, respectively. Since hemispheric memory functions are also known to be lateralized, Naveen et al. assessed the effects of uninostril breathing on the performance in verbal and spatial memory tests. School children (N = 108, whose ages ranged from 10-17 years) were randomly assigned to four groups. Each group practiced a specific yoga breathing technique: (a) right nostril breathing, (b) left nostril breathing, © alternate nostril breathing, or (d) breath awareness without manipulation of nostrils. These techniques were practiced for ten days. Verbal and spatial memory was assessed initially and after ten days. An age-matched control group of 27 children were similarly assessed. All four experimental groups showed significant increases in spatial test scores at retest, but the control group showed no change. Average increase in spatial memory scores for the trained groups was 84%. It appears yoga breathing increases spatial rather than verbal scores, without a lateralized effect."

 

Did you see what they did there?

"Uninostril breathing facilitates the performance on spatial and verbal cognitive tasks"

"Average increase in spatial memory scores for the trained groups was 84%. It appears yoga breathing increases spatial rather than verbal scores, without a lateralized effect."

So, breathing through one nostril makes a difference.

But it doesn't matter which one.

But spatial and verbal skills are lateralised, so , according to the dogma, it should matter which nostril you use (of course, according to common sense, it doesn't- the air goes to the lungs, not directly to the brain).

They have actually contradicted their own doctrine, but not noticed.

That should lead you to wonder what happened. Of course the answer is right there.

There's no reference intervention. So they have successfully verified the placebo effect- nothing more.

 

The epistemology of religion is completely different, when our ancients speak of life air, Prana, they mean something different.

 

"When the living entity is in deep sleep, when he faints, when there is some great shock on account of severe loss, at the time of death, or when the body temperature is very high, the movement of the life air is arrested. At that time the living entity loses knowledge of identifying the body with the self. (SB 4.29.71)"

 

Prana is at the heart of the quantum mind-body problem, it is prana which keeps your Self bonded to the Nous(Mind) and thence by to this empirical reality, this has nothing to do with air moving to our lungs, remember the pagan religions are based on the belief that this world is a duplicate of a world of platonic forms in the real Platonic world. Things are not what you seem it is.

 

You chaps do know you are using up your living hours on this, no refund? On your death bed, you're going to think I argued with immortal for..._ hours of my life. I just skipped every 2nd page, to 10, in 1 go.

 

Whilst immortal's family may be grateful for the break, immortal enjoying more intellectual attention than he has in years, isn't it time he gets his own 'special' section, where he can pop back and give names of new followers, who actually are true religionists, by his definition, add new revelatons of the day, startling solitary truths, warnings and his own bible with only the truthful bits in it.

 

In return, we'll promise to pop in and read and seriously think about the latest stuff, but we won't leave any messages, because we don't really exist in reality, and we have now established we know nothing, and will never be able to qualify for any religion, even if we actually apply. Is that the gist?

 

I am not capable of following such a mind, such a broadly read, analytical mind. I was following some sort of logic line, the page long lost in my fading memory, and for the life of me, I swear I had a vision of Father Dougal, and his REALITY cartoon bubble he had to study, with REALITY clearly marked, and relaxed rabbits in his cartoon head, marked DREAMS, wasn't it? suddenly being added to the end That appealled to me - but I don't want my rabbits to speak, because that isn't real - OR IS IT? so I'm going to happily remain 100% atheist, PURELY because I don't really exist, and true religion is beyond my comprehension. I think that is what we've establshed, after 10 pages?

 

Even better, next time we get really confident religionists, desperate to enlighten us, can we have a contact email for immortal, and we'll let him know, and we can let THEM discuss stuff.

 

I'm going to start a new thread. Can you read enough stuff, know there is an undefined further stuff to come, and realise you are losing the will to live?

 

This body of mine only exists in your mind, its not out there in the physical world, separability is an illusion, that's our basic view of the world and even science says the same thing, I really don't have to care for such crackpottery comments.

[Moontanman]

Ummm... which Pagan Religion are you talking about dude?

[immortal]

​ I am skeptical...

 

 

This is demonstrably not true, immortal why do you not see this? Your mind does not exist independent from the brain, your brain is all you have, change it in even a minor way and your mind is no more...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

 

The fact that he is still conscious of himself and his body even after such severe damage to the brain begs the question whether consciousness has anything to do with the brain at all.

 

Ummm... which Pagan Religion are you talking about dude?

 

The religion of the Greeks.

Edited February 14, 2013 by immortal

[Moontanman]

The fact that he is still conscious of himself and his body even after such severe damage to the brain begs the question whether consciousness has anything to with the brain at all.

 

 

Immortal, your entire attitude about this could be changed simply by electrodes planted in the correct spot, destroy your brain and you cease to exist, destroy certain parts and you lose who you are but you remain a thinking being, remove other parts and your body lives on but you are no longer at home. You do not exist independent of your brain... You cannot produce any evidence that you do exist apart from your brain why would you assume such thing? Because of what some ancient Author wrote while hallucinating? Then alien abductions must be real...

 

The religion of the Greeks.

 

 

So my friends who worship the Moon Goddess Adrianna are not part of your set of real religions?

[John Cuthber]

 

I didn't defined religion, traditions defined it and I just accepted their definition.

Are you sure about that?

[Ringer]

The fact that he is still conscious of himself and his body even after such severe damage to the brain begs the question whether consciousness has anything to do with the brain at all.

You can pontificate all you want about true religions and religious traditions, but do you really want to get into a discussion where your first sentence into it is unbelievably incorrect?

[tar]

menageriemanor,

 

I waste even more time arguing with Immortal, than reading through this entire thread. I usually spend portions of my drive home from work, arguing with this "unseen other". I win most of those arguments, and my "unseen other" immortal rationally yields me the points I earn. The actual immortal never yields a good point, or attempts to look for any other explanation than the one he has settled on. If it doesn't fit the immortal scheme, its just childish babbling to his ears.

 

The BIG thing he misses is the fact that what is "out there" in reality from the vantage point of immortal includes everthing that he is unaware of. Which is, in actuality the majority of reality. And in amounst that large amount of real stuff is a mind, a self named menageriemanor, and one named TAR and one named Moontanman and other named Iggy and so on. Each of us is an example of, or a peice of objective reality, that is really "out there" to the subjective mind of immortal.

 

Well its a BIG thing to me, anyway. Its a reality check, a grounding principle, a validation mechanism, a way to KNOW the thing as it is. Just ask a piece of objective reality, that knows the same language you know...anything...the fact that they have a response, validates the both of you, instantly, along with the reality, the two of you share.

 

Talking to imaginary gods, or noble principles, or perfect ideals, (or the "unseen other" immortal, on ones drive home) is not an actual conversation with objective reality, it is instead an imaginary dialog that is subjective and unvalidated, by definition. Its communication with a secret, invisible friend, that does not have a mind of its own, but is constructed by your own rules and will. It is not a way to step out of the cave, it is a way to pretend you can see in the dark.

 

For my money, if god is real, it is the sum total of reality itself that is god. And if this is true, then any flower, or rock or fish or cloud, is evidence of it. Knowing of these things is knowing a little of the thing as it is. I am in and of it, you are in and of it, and recognizing each other, and knowing the other recognizes you is a BIG step toward "knowing" reality/God.

 

Don't understand immortal's insistence that this "real" path to knowing God, is exactly wrong. To me, it is the only way that makes any sense, at all.

 

Regards, TAR

[racheljohns]

If you do it in the name of some god, or because some god-related text tells you to do it, then yes I think it's religion. How do you classify it?

 

 

A religion never stops anyone to get higher education and all, it only stops ones wrong deeds against other.