Intelligence in dinosaurs

[Moontanman]

Ok, so 65 million years. What happens to all that rubble if it's not left over? It get's recycled and the heat from the interior of the Earth breaks down many of the man-made materials and through volcanoes and ore veins as well as ocean-floor vents and tectonic movement get's put back into the top of the crust and/or dispersed into the ocean. The only problem is that it would actually take a really long time for that to happen, so say we did use up every natural resource. It would be available in the future once it's recycled by the Earth, but it wouldn't be recycled for any species for at least a million years, but after that critical recycle time is up, everything's good to go.

 

Except for oil, oil is the fly in the ointment for any intelligent species on the rise. Conditions deep in the earth are thought to be oxidizing so any carbon comes back as CO2 and not hydrocarbons...

[Ophiolite]

 

Maybe we need to attract a good palaeontologist to this forum!

 

The only good palaeontologist is a dead (and fossilised) palaeontologist.

[D H]

Ok, so 65 million years. What happens to all that rubble if it's not left over? It get's recycled and the heat from the interior of the Earth breaks down many of the man-made materials and through volcanoes and ore veins as well as ocean-floor vents and tectonic movement get's put back into the top of the crust and/or dispersed into the ocean. The only problem is that it would actually take a really long time for that to happen, so say we did use up every natural resource.

That's far from the only problem. Another problem is that it's pretty much useless. Consider gold. The total amount of gold mined by humankind is but a tiny, tiny fraction of the amount of gold in the Earth. Almost all of that gold is forever inaccessible. It's locked up in the Earth's core. Almost of the gold and iron that were present when the Earth first formed sank to the center of the Earth as the very young Earth differentiated gravitationally. Even the vast majority of the tiny fraction of gold that is in the Earth's crust is forever inaccessible. It's just too widely dispersed to be mineable.

 

It takes a rather rare set of circumstances for ore deposits to first form, then to stay locked up for a long time, and finally to be exposed at or near the surface. The gold that we mine now was deposited with meteor impacts, most of them during the late heavy bombardment. In the 3.8 billion years since, some of that gold dissolved in water (the oceans contain ten times as much gold as the amount mined by humankind), some got dispersed throughout the crust. A tiny bit was concentrated by biological and geological processes. A tiny bit of that was trapped in stable formations, and a tiny bit of that is finally exposed so humans can find it.

 

The same applies to the other six of the seven metals of antiquity. We would never have risen beyond stone age technology without easy and obvious access to those key metals. We would never have risen beyond iron age technology without easy access to iron, coal, and oil. We had that easy access because we were the first intelligent species to arise on this planet.

[Moontanman]

So the best case scenario is stone age, flint tools?

[SamBridge]

 

Except for oil, oil is the fly in the ointment for any intelligent species on the rise. Conditions deep in the earth are thought to be oxidizing so any carbon comes back as CO2 and not hydrocarbons...

Not sure what I said about hydrocarbons, but "any intelligent species needs oil" doesn't seem right. Dolphins don't need oil, apes don't need oil, ect. Perhaps species couldn't get things don't as fast, but there's still renewable resources as well as possibly some chemical batteries we haven't discovered similar to ATP.

 

That's far from the only problem. Another problem is that it's pretty much useless. Consider gold. The total amount of gold mined by humankind is but a tiny, tiny fraction of the amount of gold in the Earth. Almost all of that gold is forever inaccessible. It's locked up in the Earth's core. Almost of the gold and iron that were present when the Earth first formed sank to the center of the Earth as the very young Earth differentiated gravitationally. Even the vast majority of the tiny fraction of gold that is in the Earth's crust is forever inaccessible. It's just too widely dispersed to be mineable.

 

It takes a rather rare set of circumstances for ore deposits to first form, then to stay locked up for a long time, and finally to be exposed at or near the surface. The gold that we mine now was deposited with meteor impacts, most of them during the late heavy bombardment. In the 3.8 billion years since, some of that gold dissolved in water (the oceans contain ten times as much gold as the amount mined by humankind), some got dispersed throughout the crust. A tiny bit was concentrated by biological and geological processes. A tiny bit of that was trapped in stable formations, and a tiny bit of that is finally exposed so humans can find it.

 

The same applies to the other six of the seven metals of antiquity. We would never have risen beyond stone age technology without easy and obvious access to those key metals. We would never have risen beyond iron age technology without easy access to iron, coal, and oil. We had that easy access because we were the first intelligent species to arise on this planet.

But given enough time, convention could bring the materials up to the mantel, and given enough time, that mantel will be able to penetrate through the crust, that's what has already happened with us in certain areas.

Edited January 21, 2013 by SamBridge

[Moontanman]

Not sure what I said about hydrocarbons, but "any intelligent species needs oil" doesn't seem right. Dolphins don't need oil, apes don't need oil, ect. Perhaps species couldn't get things don't as fast, but there's still renewable resources as well as possibly some chemical batteries we haven't discovered similar to ATP.

 

 

 

We are talking about technology, neither apes or dolphins build anything, apes do use tools but they consists of sticks...

[SamBridge]

 

 

We are talking about technology, neither apes or dolphins build anything, apes do use tools but they consists of sticks...

But the topic isn't the "now", it's the "future", "past" and the "what could have been". Obviously "now" there aren't apes capable of building as advanced technology, but lets say dinosaurs did have 65 more million years to evolve, and humanity had used up the resources already and for one reason or another disappeared from Earth or never existed. They could eventually do many similar technological feats without oil, it would just be restricted in efficiency.

Edited January 22, 2013 by SamBridge

[Moontanman]

Actually dolphins have been observed using tools as well but the question is not what dinosaurs could have accomplished in 65 million years. The subject is could we see evidence of dinosaurian technology in the fossil record, would we recognize it as such? .

[SamBridge]

Actually dolphins have been observed using tools as well but the question is not what dinosaurs could have accomplished in 65 million years. The subject is could we see evidence of dinosaurian technology in the fossil record, would we recognize it as such? .

They obviously couldn't have had sort sort of advanced technology at the time they went extinct, based on fossils, and based on the actions of their descendants. If there was some dinosaur technology, since plants can be preserved as delicate as they are, we should at least see some dinosaurs with some tools, but we haven't seen too much of that. What other basic technology could they really have? That seems too obvious for the entire topic to be based around that.

Edited January 22, 2013 by SamBridge

[Moontanman]

They obviously couldn't have had sort sort of advanced technology at the time they went extinct, based on fossils, and based on the actions of their descendants. If there was some dinosaur technology, since plants can be preserved as delicate as they are, we should at least see some dinosaurs with some tools, but we haven't seen too much of that. What other basic technology could they really have? That seems too obvious for the entire topic to be based around that.

 

 

This is not true, fossilization is quite rare, we see only a small fraction of what was in fossils...

[SamBridge]

 

What could we expect to find after 65,000,000 years? How much technology could they have developed and still be missing from the fossil record?

 

 

 

 

 

This is not true, fossilization is quite rare, we see only a small fraction of what was in fossils...

 

 

Fossils are rare, but we still have thousands or maybe even hundreds of thousands of them. We also have observations of animals very closely related to dinosaurs which show they do not have many technological capabilities.

Edited January 22, 2013 by SamBridge

[Moontanman]

 

 

 

 

Fossils are rare, but we still have thousands of them.

 

 

yes but we are almost certainly missing millions of them, I think it's reasonable to assume that space age technology is off the table,

[john5746]

If there were any as smart as dolphins, that would be pretty amazing to me. Not sure we could tell from fossils, since dolphins don't make tools.

[SamBridge]

First, no quadrupedal dinosaur would have had even basic technology because they wouldn't be able to appropriately manipulate matter to create something such as a spear. Secondly, in order to create a metal tipped spear, dinosaurs would have had to not only have means of digging into ore veins, but also be able to isolate the materials, which requires heat. Perhaps they could have found localized volcano heat vents, but this leads to 3. In order as a species to to be able to use a spear, they would have had to have advanced communication skills to share the methods of making the technology. If it was a rock tipped spear, they would have not only to have discovered that rocks can be sharp, but also a way to make them sharp, which also requires communication as a species. We should see at least some evidence of rocks existing in clearly manipulated shapes near dinosaurs with the appendages to do so, but so far I have heard no news like that. I'm not saying it's impossible or that dinosaurs were't smart, but based on our current knowledge of them there isn't much evidence for them possessing even basic technology. It seems like they could have done it if they were given a few more million years, but it seems they fell short of time.

Edited January 22, 2013 by SamBridge

[Moontanman]

Admittedly such speculation is far fetched but there were bipedal dinosaurs with hand like appendages and the brains of birds who are dinosaurs suggest that dinosaur brains need not be as big as mammal brains or human brains and the EQ that is applied to mammals is not applicable.

 

Some Dinosaurs are thought to have been pack animals which implies communication skills.

 

Humans accomplished quite a bit before we discovered metals and the ability to smelt them and we did it with out coal or oil.

 

Stone tools should not be discounted, obsidian can be used to make ultra sharp tools, far sharper than metal tools and in fact obsidian is still used to today to operate on humans. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian

 

Since absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence the question remains what would we see in the fossil record and would we recognize it if we did see it?

 

Are Ompa's being found and automatically discounted? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-place_artifact

[SamBridge]

 

Some Dinosaurs are thought to have been pack animals which implies communication skills.

Wolves don't use spears.

 

Humans accomplished quite a bit before we discovered metals and the ability to smelt them and we did it with out coal or oil.

 

But we haven't seen those discoveries in dinosaurs (at least not yet).

Stone tools should not be discounted, obsidian can be used to make ultra sharp tools, far sharper than metal tools and in fact obsidian is still used to today to operate on humans. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian

 

Since absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence the question remains what would we see in the fossil record and would we recognize it if we did see it?

 

Are Ompa's being found and automatically discounted? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-place_artifact

If you read after the part of my post where I mentioned metal you'd see I mentioned stone

 

If it was a rock tipped spear, they would have not only to have discovered that rocks can be sharp, but also a way to make them sharp, which also requires communication as a species. We should see at least some evidence of rocks existing in clearly manipulated shapes near dinosaurs with the appendages to do so, but so far I have heard no news like that.

The IQ may have a different scale of measurement, but if they knew how to make spears we should see at least one spear with all the thousands of fossils we found, don't you think? Saying "it would have broke down" wouldn't be a credible excuse either, we can still find plant fossils and short stemy plants are definitely a more delicate material than wood and rock.

Edited January 22, 2013 by SamBridge

[Moontanman]

Wolves don't use spears.

 

Humans are pack animals, wolves are not bipedal and do not have hands your analogy doesn't hold up

 

 

But we haven't seen those discoveries in dinosaurs (at least not yet).

If you read after the part of my post where I mentioned metal you'd see I mentioned stone

 

yes but you implied they could not have discovered that stones could be made sharp

 

The IQ may have a different scale of measurement, but if they knew how to make spears we should see at least one spear with all the thousands of fossils we found, don't you think?

 

EQ is the term not IQ Encephalization Quotient, not Intelligence Quotient and the question remains would we see it if we did discover it or would it be dismissed out of hand as most OMPA's generally are especially when they are found in strata as old as dinosaurs...

 

Fossilization is rare, no doubt that most animals are completely missing from the fossil record...

[SamBridge]

 

Humans are pack animals, wolves are not bipedal and do not have hands your analogy doesn't hold up

A fair point

 

yes but you implied they could not have discovered that stones could be made sharp

 

I did not imply that they couldn't, I just plainly said there is little evidence that they did based on fossil records as well as the requirements for a species harnessing stones to make spears. I think if they had 15 more million years they could have done it within that time.

EQ is the term not IQ Encephalization Quotient, not Intelligence Quotient and the question remains would we see it if we did discover it or would it be dismissed out of hand as most OMPA's generally are especially when they are found in strata as old as dinosaurs...

Both are still a way to infer intelligence, and so far both systems show that dinosaurs weren't quite at the technological level when they went extinct.

Edited January 22, 2013 by SamBridge

[Moontanman]

The only real evidence we see in the fossil record is the same evidence we are currently leaving... Mass extinction, the current human caused mass extinction is comparable to the one at the K/T boundary.. there is some reason to date the chicxulub crater as well before the K/T boundary BTW...

A fair point

 

 

I did not imply that they couldn't, I just plainly said there is little evidence that they did based on fossil records as well as the requirements for a species harnessing stones to make spears. I think if they had 15 more million years they could have done it within that time.

Both are still a way to infer intelligence, and so far both systems show that dinosaurs weren't quite at the technological level when they went extinct.

 

 

No it suggests that dinosaurs could have been more capable than we give them credit for, if humans had never made it past the stone age, considering how rare human fossils are, I doubt it's a forgone conclusion we would see fossils of obviously advanced dinosaurs. In fact troodonts seemed to be quite close.

 

http://dinosaurs.about.com/od/typesofdinosaurs/tp/smartestdinos.htm

 

 

 

Troodon, a human-sized theropod of the Cretaceous period, has become the poster lizard for dinosaur intelligence. Judging by its predatory arsenal--big eyes, fast speed, and stereo vision--paleontologists believe Troodon must have possessed an especially big brain, "big" in this context meaning about the size of a modern opossum's (which, for its size, still placed Troodon well ahead of other dinosaurs).

[SamBridge]

"The size of a modern opossum", we don't exactly see opossums displaying levels of intelligence that even a dolphin has. As I said, I think dinosaurs could have eventually evolved to harness objects such as spears, but only with more time. With our current data, it seems they were not capable of such things when they went extinct.

Edited January 22, 2013 by SamBridge

[Moontanman]

 

"The size of a modern opossum", we don't exactly see opossums displaying levels of intelligence that even a dolphin has. As I said, I think dinosaurs could have eventually evolved to harness objects such as spears, but only with more time. With our current data, it seems they were not capable of such things when they went extinct.

 

 

 

Yes but the brains of birds do not follow the same EQ as the brains of mammals so it is not a fair comparison...

 

Not to mention the incompleteness of the fossil record...

[SamBridge]

But both systems still measure intelligence, but they do it in a different way. There's one way of measuring intelligence of mammals, and another way for birds, but the output unit is still the same: intelligence. We can still say that dinosaurs weren't capable of the technology humans have today for sure, even though it's not the same system system of figuring out intelligence i mammals.

 

The fossil record is incomplete, but that's why we base information also on the anatomy and physiology of their decedents and the fossils of their predecessors.

Edited January 22, 2013 by SamBridge

[Moontanman]

But both systems still measure intelligence, but they do it in a different way. There's one way of measuring intelligence of mammals, and another way for birds, but the output unit is still the same: intelligence.

 

I agree.

 

We can still say that dinosaurs weren't capable of the technology humans have today for sure, even though it's not the system system of figuring out intelligence.

 

I don't see how you can assert that...

 

The fossil record is incomplete, but that's why we base information also on the anatomy and physiology of their decedents and the fossils of their predecessors.

 

They left no descendants and a few million years is the time it took for humans to go from slightly more capable apes to to landing on the moon, the fossil record is not that precise...

Edited January 22, 2013 by Moontanman

[SamBridge]

 

I don't see how you can assert that...

 

 

The very system of intelligence that you mentioned which is different than the one for mammals concludes that there may have been a very smart dinosaur comparable to the intelligence of an opossum. Some species of otters are definitely more intelligent than opossums and have better fingers for manipulating matter, but the most advanced technological thing we see them do is break open clams with rocks. It doesn't matter if the systems aren't the same, the outcome is still the same unit. I can say 2+2=4 or i can say 3+1=4.

They left no descendant and a few million years is the time it took for humans to go from slightly more capable apes to to landing on the moon, the fossil record is not that precise...

They did leave behind animals that are directly linked to them along the evolutionary time line there were even some dinosaurs that had feathers, I hope you aren't trying to claim they aren't closely related. If all of humans were wiped out, you would definitely see some of the objects they left behind. If they were wiped out during the stone age, I think it's reasonable to expect at least some spears and some clothing and at least 1 mad-made living domain.

Edited January 22, 2013 by SamBridge

[Moontanman]

 

The very system of intelligence that you mentioned which is different than the one for mammals concludes that there may have been a very smart dinosaur comparable to the intelligence of an opossum.

 

No it doesn't, crows have brains smaller than opossums and they use tools and language and transmit culture to their young.

 

Some species of otters are definitely more intelligent than opossums and have better fingers for manipulating matter, but the most advanced technological thing we see them do is break open clams with rocks. It doesn't matter if the systems aren't the same, the outcome is still the same unit. I can say 2+2=4 or i can say 3+1=4.

 

I'm not sure what you are getting at here.

 

They did leave behind animals that are directly linked to them along the evolutionary time line there were even some dinosaurs that had feathers, I hope you aren't trying to claim they aren't closely related.

 

No i am saying they left no direct descendants, birds are not the direct descendants of troodons, in fact birds existed well before troodonts.

 

If all of humans were wiped out, you would definitely see some of the objects they left behind. If they were wiped out during the stone age, I think it's reasonable to expect at least some spears and some clothing and at least 1 mad-made living domain.

 

 

Again, what are you saying? After 65,000,000 years there would be clothing left behind from stone age humans? What man made living domain are you talking about?